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From	Message
blitzkov 17-Jun-12, 18:18	cheaters! can we really tell when someone is cheating on GK? i dont think so, and why would any one cheat, just for ratings????? if so, it shows that i would not want to play a game of poker with them
chicoboy 17-Jun-12, 23:23	cheaters Cheaters are miserable characters anyhow in chess and also in life. - But yes I do believe that some use computer assistance without telling their opponents. - and no, on GK we would not be able to tell! How could we if that person cheats all the time and we never have an opportunity playing life with that player. P.S. and that is my three pennies worth....
blitzkov 18-Jun-12, 20:34	cheaters i put on my team profile page, that if i find any on my team cheating, i will kick them off.
chicoboy 18-Jun-12, 20:42	cheaters that's well and good what you say but how will and/or can you prove this? If some miserable player is constantly cheating and is using a computer program in doing so, again, how can this be proved? P.S. honour and ethics and fair play is paramount. - Of course trust is equally important!
blitzkov 18-Jun-12, 20:46	cheaters well, my team members play against each other some times, and maybe they can tell me if a certain player rated, lets say, 1400, and they think that he or she is playing 2000, rating, i will be watching him or her
chicoboy 18-Jun-12, 21:31	cheaters that's surely a way of keeping alert against unsavoury practices but no sure thing: unless one plays the subject face to face! - wouldn't you tend to agree with my assumption?
blitzkov 18-Jun-12, 21:32	cheaters yeah i agree..
chicoboy 21-Jun-12, 17:12	Trust and Integrity! These two words cannot be bought with money and/or mammon. - If one doesn't trust oneself how can one trust another being? - and integrity is a virtue to be learned by oneself and not available in shops!
worldtraveler 27-Dec-12, 16:16	Foul play What goes around, comes around.....
jkarp 15-Feb-13, 20:59	I now have a rule about this. Although I have not had any problems with team members cheating, I have heard of people cheating. In fact, a club moderator was recently removed from doing this. Cheating is a pet hate of mine. In my team, it's about becoming a better player and improving, not winning. As it is said in a Special Olympics Oath, "LET ME WIN. BUT IF I CANNOT WIN, LET ME BRAVE IN THE ATTEMPT." What does this really mean? Let's do the best we can and not worry about winning or losing. Cheating is completely dishonest. In fact, doing so in a chess game is like cheating on a test or plagiarizing. I now have a new policy that if any team player cheats on a team game, he or she will permanently be removed from the team and possibly reported to Gameknot. That is because nothing justifies cheating.
worldtraveler 16-Feb-13, 08:12	Cheating Jkarp, How does one cheat on gameknot? Is there some way to move the pieces other than a legal move? I've heard tell of the practice of cheating, however I would expect the Gameknot management to alter the program so as to prevent such shameful practices? Once, I was nearly sure my opponent had moved my pieces, however upon introspection, I was able to assure myself that I had simply made a poor choice of my chess move. When I play on a board with pieces which I am able to clutch in my hands, rest assured, I watch the board any time my opponent brings his hand toward a piece. I want a fair game, that assures a true winner and loser or at least a true draw. Yet I assure you, in the most friendly manner, when I play chess, either on a real board or on Gameknot, I play to win, and becoming a better player only serves to further my goal of winning. Those who care not to win and care only for some nebulous altruistic goal, should play Pictionary or Spoons or some other none strategy, socializing game. Forgive me, I digress. If cheating occurs, there is no win nor draw, there is only two losers: the cheater and the cheated, both I say, are fools. Jkarp, kindly define cheating in your terms. Do you truly mean that cheaters have found a way on Gameknot to move pieces illegally, and further expand the realm of fools? W
jkarp 16-Feb-13, 08:53	@worldtraveler No. By cheating, I am alluding to players who use a search engine, or a player who gets help from another, during an actual NON coaching or mentoring game. If you just remember a coaches or mentors advice for a different game, that's not cheating. But, if you actually get help from someone and he or she makes suggestions while the game is in progress, however, that's cheating.
worldtraveler 16-Feb-13, 09:58	Cheaters? Jkarp, I would call that foolishness, for it leads only to two losers. However, whatever you call it, any rule against it, if unenforceable, is mere foolishness. A wise man once taught me to worry not about that which I control not. Nor, waste effort trying to hold back the wind or stop the tide. Wonder about that which you might improve. W
chicoboy 16-Feb-13, 17:33	cheating and cheaters! besides being dishonest they also have a low self esteem who also entertain/depend on cheating in daily life. - ''Imposter's'' is another term for it - to impose something on others which is not true and fictitious by trying to better their social standing by means of cheating. P.S. using anything other than your own brain while playing chess on-line is cheating. - Full Stop! cheers,
worldtraveler 16-Feb-13, 18:14	Low self esteem Chicoboy, My education in Psychology precludes me from ascribing "low self esteem" to anyone based on such a limited and narrowly focused review of their actions. Apparently, your insight invests you with great labeling powers far exceeding mine. W
johnclark 16-Feb-13, 18:37	@chicoboy: So in correspondence chess as with this GameKnot chess site, you would not consider the use of articles, texts or databases as playing fairly?
jkarp 16-Feb-13, 20:27	Talk about which, remembering a coache's advice is using your brain, why? It's part of memory techniques, which involves the brain. With that in mind, I agree with chicoboy that using anything but your brain is cheating. However, as is=worldtraveler mentioned, how do you enforce it? Well, I recently learned that you usually only know, if someone confesses to it. Otherwise, how can you prove that someone is cheating? In order to enforce the rules of cheating, you have to have, sufficient evidence that someone is doing so.
johnclark 16-Feb-13, 20:54	@jkarp: Do you consider using texts, articles, and databases cheating on this GameKnot site and in correspondence chess?
jkarp 16-Feb-13, 20:59	@johnclark: texts and articles yes. In most cases, databases as well, unless it involves the Game DB, also called Gameknot DB. However, I do not use that because I have had a lot of bad luck with it. Believe it or not my worst team game was also the worst game on this site, and my second worst game, ever. That's because I relied too much on the Game DB, without even knowing why certain moves were suggested. For that reason, I usually just remember Jack's advice to, "Think about things", and, "When you are in trouble, concentrate. Try to find a way out of trouble." Believe it or not, I also use this advice for things completely outside of chess, like my job, to make a long story short.
chicoboy 16-Feb-13, 21:02	cheating and cheaters! one cannot prove if its cheating if one uses textbooks, engines and the like unless they are forthcoming. - to learn and gain insight from reading / researching chess books etc. is fine but not using these while actively playing chess. - its a matter of ones ethics! ( store and preserve into your brain what you have learned / acquired and then uses this acquired knowledge and let your brain play - without a walking stick per se )
johnclark 16-Feb-13, 21:14	@jkarp: For clarification, we are discussing cheating. Your statement of "...unless it involves the Game DB, also called Gameknot DB" gives the impression that you consider using the Gameknot DB cheating. I don't see how using sanctioned tools can be considered cheating. For me, articles, texts and databases have expanded my understanding of positions, improved my game and has made the chess experience a lot more fun.
johnclark 16-Feb-13, 21:20	@chicoboy: Are you not overriding Gameknot's rules? From Gameknot's Rules/Community Standards gameknot.com "3. You may not use chess engines nor chess computers to help you decide your next move. You may not consult with anyone nor ask for advice about any of your games in progress (nor provide such advice to other GameKnot players about their games in progress, whether solicited or not). You may analyze games with chess engines after they are finished. You may consult chess books or game/move databases at any time."
pennsylvaniadan 16-Feb-13, 22:14	Does anyone here in the club keep your own chess database? It would make more sense to me to do that rather than look at others moves for improving your game.
johnclark 16-Feb-13, 22:36	Yes, I do and it's available for every player who has access to GK's DB. I have to disagree with my friend penndan on this issue. I think seeing a master's reply in a given position and looking for it's rationale is a better learning activity than seeing a move of my own and feeling good about it because I won or lost that position in one of my games.
pennsylvaniadan 16-Feb-13, 22:41	You're probably right JC but I have enough trouble trying to understand my thinking process without trying to determine someone else's---is there an easy way to put a game in your own personal database?
johnclark 16-Feb-13, 22:50	Oh yeah! Bring up Game Database in any of your games and then click on Personal/W or Personal/B. Scroll down and click on Request Update. It takes about 1 hour to update your games, but they are all there.
billdancourtney 12-Apr-13, 21:10	I believe, according to rules at GK and some other sites, the use of books and databases is not considered cheating. The use of human advice is however. Having another human being stand over your shoulder and coach your moves is cheating here and at least one person who did so and admitted to it was punished by GK. And using databases, like the ones here or the huge chessbase DB, is not considered cheating, having your software, like Fritz analyze and recommend the next best move is. I am not sure there is anyway to really tell if someone is cheating. But one person I felt was and there was one interesting piece of possible evidence (though hardly proof) that they may have been using some software was that there average game length was 10 moves. Most everybody I play has an average length of moves of about 30 moves, give or take. This person was quickly pulling off pretty amazing moves in a short time and wrapping up games in about a dozen moves. Their overall rating was not that high, less than 1400, but there was still something fishy. I simply did not play the person again and I guess if I lose to a computer than I lose. Heck, to lose to non-computers everyday too.
chicoboy 13-Apr-13, 01:42	cheating and cheaters! @billdancourtney, cheatimg is just plain dishonest and such persons may need that in order to polish their appearance as it would appear corroded without polish! (and properly is) - your last sentences indeed points in this direction and you were well advised giving him/her a miss. However, if you had the opportunity playing face to face with this person then you would quickly find out. cheers,
worldtraveler 17-Apr-13, 04:17	Fret not of that which you have no lever If you cannot know for certain who is doing it and you cannot prevent it, then quit fretting about it. Cheating, like so many of the black arts, offends the cheater more than the cheated. W
chicoboy 17-Apr-13, 16:13	Fret not of that which you have..... @worldtraveler - that is certainly correct but it does not change the fact that you lost against a cheater and not fair play! P.S. how can a cheater be more offended than the cheated when the cheater mostly wins?
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