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shamash 16-May-12, 17:30 |
 Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 16:02.
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solascriptura 17-May-12, 04:40 |
1) God's Creation was a broken Creation. 2) Man had a spiritual duty to help God fix this broken Creation. --End of Quote-- I have a couple of questions I would like to present. 1) God's Creation was a broken Creation. a) In your opinion, what was the cause of the broken Creation ------------------------------------------------------------ 2) Man had a spiritual duty to help God fix this broken Creation a) Where do you ascertain it is Man's spiritual duty to help God? b) What steps are we to take to help fix this broken Creation? |
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rooklet 17-May-12, 12:40 |
God doesn't need a partner What God needs from man is spelled out in Scripture, both in the Old Testament (Ten Commandments) and the New Testament (both in the Sermon on the Mount and in Luke 18:18-22.) There's a reason God created man last. He probably didn't want to hear man telling Him how to create the rest of the earth and all the animals and pointing out everything man thought God was doing "wrong." God doesn't need anything from sinful man but for him to get his act together - if you're following the Ten Commandments and all of the teachings in the Sermon on the Mount and Luke 18:18-22, you're the first in history to do it. |
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rooklet 17-May-12, 12:50 |
Answers to questions Fixing the broken creation and reconciling to God is open to everyone by accepting Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior and believing - not just thinking, but believing - that God raised Him from the dead. This confers upon the believer the gift of the Holy Spirit. The best way to fix the broken creation is to follow the teachings in the Holy Bible and to serve as a light to others. That was God's original plan when it came to the Jews and Israel. He wanted the descendants of Abraham to form a nation that worshipped and obeyed God so that Israel would receive God's blessings and serve as a beacon to the rest of the world; so the rest of the world would see that the Jews were worshipping the only true God. Unfortunately, that's not how it worked out - the Jews failed like everyone else - so God made salvation and the ability to reconnect to Him available to everyone through Jesus' death and resurrection. |
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shamash 17-May-12, 13:07 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 16:01.
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shamash 17-May-12, 13:39 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 15:48.
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rooklet 17-May-12, 14:20 |
you don't know God at all. John the Baptist, who is the closest person I can think of who would fit the definition of a "partner" of God, said he wasn't fit to unlatch the sandals of Jesus Christ - far from partner status, but John the Baptist, who was sent from God to prepare people for Jesus' arrival, had the right perspective. By the way, that "book" you're referring to is the Word of God. And I have experienced God in my life, which is why I am humble before Him, grateful for all He has done for me and grounded enough to know the omnipotent Almighty doesn't need anything from me other than praise for Him and respect for His Word (that "book" you referred to.) And I did respond to your questions in case you missed them. |
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shamash 17-May-12, 14:36 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 15:49.
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rooklet 17-May-12, 15:13 |
but for man's benefit. In that sense, God's "need" is solely based on benefiting man, which is why God is often referred to as the embodiment or epitome of love. It's interesting you assumed I hadn't experienced God in my life; you couldn't have been more wrong. But let's get down to the teachings... 1) You seem to be implying that nature was co-mingling with evil before original sin. Is that in fact your view, and if so, what's the evidence for it? It's certainly not in the Holy Bible, which actually appears to contradict that belief. 2) "Each good deed contributes to the homecoming of the banished souls." This sentence seems to imply that one person's good deeds can benefit someone who is/was evil (I assume by "banished soul" you are referring to a soul banished from heaven.) What's the evidence for this belief? It's not to be found in the Holy Bible, which instead teaches that each man is responsible for his own actions and can't pay for someone else's sins. I'd add that "good deeds" aren't the way to Heaven but don't want to get too far afield. 3) What's the evidence that creation wasn't fulfilled in the past? Was not creation fulfilled after the creation of Eve and before original sin? |
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shamash 17-May-12, 16:05 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 15:49.
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rooklet 17-May-12, 16:18 |
Of course I know people's spiritual views will differ (they differ even in my own family) and I was perhaps too wedded to the heading of this club. But I'll post a reply in a few days. There could be a case made from the Holy Bible that nature was co-mingling with evil before original sin due to the serpent tempting Eve to disobey the only command God had given at the time, but that is a stretch for me because I believe God was testing his new creations and therefore permitted the tempting and I view nature more broadly than a serpent in a garden. Anyway, didn't mean to be off-putting in my previous posts. I tend to write directly and somewhat undiplomatically due to my job but shouldn't carry how I write in my job over to how I write in other venues |
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solascriptura 17-May-12, 17:44 |
--Quote shamash-- 1) God's Creation was a broken Creation. 2) Man had a spiritual duty to help God fix this broken Creation. --End of Quote-- a) In your opinion, what was the cause of the broken Creation b) Where do you ascertain it is Man's spiritual duty to help God? c) What steps are we to take to help fix this broken Creation? Since this is a Bible Discussion Club, I would like to see some scripture which would shed truth on your statements. We always wish to do as the the Bereans did in Acts17:11 and search the scriptures to see if it is so. --Quote shamash-- V) in a nutshell, Man helps mend the breach by honoring the Commandments and God's moral laws, and by doing good deeds -- on a daily basis. This way of seeing the world envisions 10 directions in the phsyical world: North, South, East, West, Up, Down Before, After Good, Evil --End of Quote-- Man can never mend the breach by honoring the Commandments and God's moral laws, and by doing good deeds once or on a daily basis. The only "mending" is the precious blood of Christ at Calvary. That will mend and has mended the breach. Isa 64:6 English Standard Version (©2001) We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. Rom 3:10 English Standard Version (©2001) as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; In the formula for salvation, it is not what we do but rather what we believe. gochristianhelps.com You will find 101 scriptures which all teach that salvation is not by works. From what I can read and understand statements by shamash seem to indicate something else. I may have misunderstood, but so far that is what I am gleaning from these writings. When one makes a statement such as "Man helps mend the breach by honoring the Commandments and God's moral laws, and by doing good deeds", then we must hold it up to the truth which is held within the Bible. I don't see it. The last observation is concerning the statement "This way of seeing the world envisions 10 directions in the phsyical world". I don't understand how that statement relates to the discussion concerning mending the breach between man and God, nor the 10 points which were list as a direction(s) . I must have missed something in the read. Blessings, Len |
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shamash 17-May-12, 18:00 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 15:50.
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shamash 17-May-12, 18:23 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 15:59.
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rooklet 17-May-12, 20:18 |
partners with God; not to the ability of man to be friends with God. That is, in fact, what I think God wants - a personal relationship with those He created. Partnership, to me, implies equality (or at least near equality.) If "partner" is defined as friend rather than the definition used in business relationships (partners in a law firm, partners in a company, etc.), then I have no problem with it and agree with it. The reason I thought the use of "partner" was synonymous with co-equal was due to the additional statement related to man asking God if He needs anything. On the other point about man being created in God's image, I believe that is related to man having an eternal soul; not to man having the authority or omnipotence of God. Certainly, man having an eternal soul is a sound belief Biblically. Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." I'm still planning to post again in a few days; just wanted to say the definition of partner I understood from an earlier post may not have been the definition you intended. |
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shamash 17-May-12, 20:32 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 15:51.
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rooklet 17-May-12, 20:37 |
He said (paraphrasing) "God's standard is perfection and no one has lived a sinless life (except Jesus Christ, of course, who was God in human form.) Suppose you were in an archery contest, and, to advance to the next round, you had to hit 10 bullseyes in a row. You missed the first. It doesn't matter if you hit the next three, the next five, or even the next nine - you still missed the first one and fell short. That is why good deeds don't get you right with God - you've already blown it." Stanley was making the point that sinful man can't connect to sinless God without a bridge, and the bridge is Jesus Christ and belief in His resurrection. Belief. I used to wonder why someone couldn't believe in Christ's resurrection and then have the license to commit all kinds of sin and still be assured of salvation. Then I learned that belief isn't just thinking something is so; it's much deeper than that. And when someone believes in Christ's resurrection, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, live under the spirit (instead of under the law) and would naturally avoid sin and do good deeds by their transformed nature. That's not to say we won't stumble. But if we recognize and admit our stumbles and repent and ask for forgiveness, then we will be forgiven. |
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shamash 17-May-12, 21:38 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 15:59.
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solascriptura 18-May-12, 06:28 |
On what foundations are you making the 9 point statements? What is the citing source(s) or are these 9 points from your own studies? Blessings, Len |
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shamash 18-May-12, 08:21 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 15:57.
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mervynrothwell 18-May-12, 11:59 |
Primary sources? I am essentially a lay person, who has read quite widely but without the benefit of the more formal and comprehensive study provided by a college. In particular I am curious about these “primary sources” from the thirteenth century. At best these can only be secondary sources given that the Bible is our sole primary source. Can we be specific about what these “primary” sources are. I must admit to being mystified. I am happy to draw on the experience of those who have gone on before, where these are the expressed understandings and insights of competent theologians and philosophers of that period.... but why particularly the 13th century? We are the beneficiaries of great insights of a multitude of saints down the ages.... to name a few... Chysostom (4th Cent), Augustus (5th), Anselm (12th) a Kempis (15th), Calvin, Knox, Luther (16th), the great puritan writers of the 17th & 18th centuries, to say nothing of the many who have come since. We can learn a great deal from great students of the Word, and those who have lived exceptional lives, but the question remains... why the preoccupation with that particular era? Can I ask Shamash to specify.... 1. who were the “spiritual men” (of France and Spain) to whom he refers to in his first post, 2. how were these revelations received by them? 3. have these revelations acquired credibility in the church, and of so, where? Mervyn |
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rooklet 18-May-12, 22:22 |
1) The Holy Bible holds that man was the one to bring sin/evil into the world by disobeying the only commandment God had given at the time - not to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. How great of a temptation could that tree have been when God provided many other trees from which Adam and Eve could eat? It would seem to be fairly easy to resist if one were not duped and/or inclined to rebel against God. 2) God's decision to give man free will requires the possibility of evil in the world. Otherwise, man would simply be a robot, capable of only doing the will of God or behaving righteously. Would God rather be worshipped and loved by someone choosing to do that, or by someone who was incapable of not doing that? God chose the former - He wants people to choose to worship and love Him of their own free will, not because they have no choice. Think of that movie, "The Stepford Wives." Clearly man, in that fictional movie, preferred robotic wives who never argued, never disagreed and catered to their husbands' every whim and desire. The robotic wives had no choice - they were programmed to behave that way. God (and hopefully most men lol) prefer companions who choose to love them and whose behavior is based on free will. 3) There is a theory that holds that God permits evil in the world not only so people have to choose to love Him, but, in some cases, to get people's attention. How many people turn to God when their lives are going well and they're content and happy? How many turn to God when their lives are difficult? When earthquakes and tsunamis take place (i.e. natural disasters), don't most people turn to God, even if they weren't directly impacted? 4) On temptations....Think of the 10 Commandments; how many of those are really difficult to keep? Maybe it's just me, but I can't think of a single one that is hard to keep. The two most important commandments, according to Jesus, are to love the Lord, your God with all of your heart, all of your soul, all of your mind and all of your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Those aren't really hard to keep. 5) But God gives help anyway. The New Testament says that one accepts Jesus Christ as his or her savior and believes (not thinks - Believes) that God raised Him from the dead, he or she will receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit, which is variously described as a counselor, advocate, comforter, etc. |
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rooklet 18-May-12, 22:53 |
The plan God had for his creation was first spoiled by Adam and Eve and then God flooded the earth because it was so evil and wicked. If God's plan was to create a world in which only a few righteous men and women would exist and survive, He surely would have expected widespread evil and wickedness and would not have been so offended by it that he flooded the earth. God's next plan to save man from himself was through the creation of Israel (descendants of Abraham) who were supposed to be so righteous that God would bless them, and other countries and peoples in the world who worshipped different gods would come to see that the Jews' God was the one true God and would abandon their useless idols and gods and turn to the true God. Unfortunately, the Jews did not live righteously (nor was anyone else) so that plan was again foiled by man. But here's the kicker - God must have known that would happen because the arrival of Jesus Christ in the New Testament is foreshadowed in the Old Testament - most notably (or persuasively) in Isaiah 53, written in 800 B.C. All of this means to me that God has been eternally good and eternally striving to help man. Yes, there are passages in the Old Testament that seem to contradict passages in the New Testament (an eye for an eye vs. turning the other cheek) but the underlying theme of resisting evil and sin is the same; only the response is different. I don't think a changed response to evil or sin is the same as a changed attitude toward it. Lastly, one question I have recently started to ponder is whether a changed response to evil and sin could be due to a benevolent God who is without sin having trouble comprehending it. This runs into the problem of God being omniscient, but you have to also consider the theory that God cannot act contrary to His nature, nor can he do something illogical, like square a circle or create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it. |
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rooklet 18-May-12, 23:32 |
odd question Until recently, I thought of (imagined) God in the form of a man (probably because of that famous painting of God's finger touching the finger of a man. I believe God, in that painting, is depicted as an old, muscular man with a white beard.) But I believe the Holy Bible describes God as a spirit, which would lead me to think He is not visible. Jesus Christ (God in human form) was obviously visible, but it seems that God is not, regardless of whether you're alive on earth or have passed on. I believe the part of Genesis that speaks of man being made in the image of God refers to man having an eternal soul, not to the physical characteristics of God (though I could obviously be wrong.) It's just an interesting thought; was curious if I'm the only one who pictured God in the form of a man. There's apparently no reason to picture Him that way and it's obviously impossible (at least for me) to get a mental picture of a spirit. |
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rooklet 19-May-12, 00:02 |
One other thought... Interesting (and true) story...I had just come back from a Bible study class where I had asked a lot of skeptical questions concerning what I perceived to be a contradiction between a covenant in the Old Testament and what is taught in the New Testament. When I opened my Bible that night to read what was assigned (I like to open it and then flip through the pages to find the book and chapter I'm looking for instead of looking up the page number in the table of contents), I opened the Bible to Job, a few pages short of chapter 38. I read through to chapter 38 and then from 38 to 42 and had my question about the apparent conflict answered, though not in the way I expected lol. Worth reading...Not saying we shouldn't raise questions and discuss God; just saying we shouldn't expect to arrive at satisfactory answers in all instances. Note too in Job 38 that God does not appear to Job in a visible form, but speaks to him out of a whirlwind (referencing the idea that God is a spirit.) |
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shamash 19-May-12, 00:11 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 15:53.
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shamash 19-May-12, 00:18 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 15:57.
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shamash 19-May-12, 00:44 |
Deleted by shamash on 13-Jun-12, 15:54.
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solascriptura 19-May-12, 05:31 |
--Quote shamas-- Deuteronomy XXX: 10-20 ". . . thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and --End of Quote-- Some people believe that the Law is just the Ten Commandments. Actually, the Law of Moses contains 613 commandments covering everything from blood sacrifices to men's haircuts to rape and murder to clothing restrictions to gardening to sexual worship of false gods to sewage disposal to charging interest on loans. These 613 Commandments are found in the first five books of the Bible. Christians usually call the five books of Moses the Pentatuch. Jews refer to the five books of Moses as Torah. The New Testament is very clear that Christians are not under the Old Testament Jewish Law or the law of Moses. Here is what the Bible says. 1. "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14. 2. Christians are ”dead to the law." Romans 7:4. 3. "If ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law" Galatians 5:18. 4. Christians are "delivered from the law." Romans 7:6. 5. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster “ [the law]. Galatians 3:24-25. 6. For Christians, the Law is "that which is done away." II Corinthians 3:11. 7. For Christians, the Law is "that which is abolished." II Corinthians 3:13. 8. For Christians, Jesus, on the Cross, was "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us." Colossians 2:14. 9. For Christians, the Law is taken "out of the way" and nailed "to his cross." Colossians 2:14. 10. "When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use). And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether." Hebrews 8:13, The Amplified Version 11. "And after that he said, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. Thus he put an end to the first in order to establish the second." Hebrews 10:9, Lamsa Translation |
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solascriptura 19-May-12, 05:45 |
--Quote shamas-- The Bible talks about seeing God. In Exodus, for instance, there are at least two passages. The setting is Sinai. As I recall, one pasage tells what the people saw. And that one, it's like -- can you picture the wind? --or can you picture the leaves that blow in the air, the funnel that can rise in the air like a twister -- I think that's what They see -- the effect of His presence, rather than His physical form. And the other passage has God telling Moses what He will allow Moses to to see of Him. --End of Quote-- The Law and the Prophets had an incomplete revelation of who God was. They had a glimpse of His shadow, but never knew Him. The Temple, sacrifices prophetic utterances all revealed and presented certain aspects of the Lord but never was there a complete understanding of who He was. John 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Jn 8:19 — Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also." 1Jn 2:13 — I write to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, Because you have overcome the wicked one. I write to you, little children, Because you have known the Father. Jn 6:46 — Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. We cannot turn to the Old Testament and arrive at nor ever hope to obtain a complete revelation of who God is. Our eyes must turn to Jesus, there we see the Father, there we see Maker of Heaven and Earth, there we see the completeness in God. |
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