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riaannieman 23-Jun-12, 00:11	Gun ownership In South Africa we live in a violent community. Recently, our government implemented a new act regulating the ownership of firearms very strictly. While I agree that firearms should only be in the hands if responsible citizens, I believe to disarm the general population will only leave firearms in the hands of criminals, who obviously are not going to obtain a legal firearm anyway. My problem is that the number of illegal firearms in the community are rapidly approaching the number of legal firearms owned by responsible citizens. Amnesties for handing in illegal firearms also did no good in the past: a criminal will not hand in his one tool to ensure a living, especially when that tool can connect him to previous criminal acts, that will inevitably land him in jail. At the point where the number of illegal firearms in circulation becomes more that the legal firearms, criminals will have no more fear of repercussions from the citizenry. They know that they will outnumber responsible, law-abiding citizens, and at that point it will be more profitable and easier to follow a criminal career rather than a lawful career. My view is that the law-abiding citizens should be allowed to own firearms in a responsible way. I know quite a number of citizens who own firearms, and are not blood-thirsty, extremist killers. In fact, they are probably the most even tempered, responsible people I know. For most of them, firearms are like coins to a coin collector, or stamps to a philatelist. Many firearms owners don't even hunt (like me), but own the firearms for the esthetic beauty of the device (again, like me). It is also a tool to safeguard life and limb, and a deterrent for criminals to leave me alone. As a police officer, I have only ever used my official firearm to save other innocent people, as a tool for the common good, and as a device to practice a sport. I have never used a firearm to intimidate, injure or kill just to get my own way. I would like to think of myself as a responsible person. So, I would like to see more legal firearms in the hands of responsible, law-abiding citizens. When all people on the right side of the law stands together, and have the means to back themselves up, criminals will realize that their ways may not be so profitable or easy anymore. To disarm a community will not lessen the amount of illegal firearms in circulation, only the take away the power of the law-abiding citizen to make a stand.
chrisforbes21 23-Jun-12, 00:31	it depends on what country you live in Tough topic but a very good one. We banned handguns here in the UK after Dunblane, since the ban there has only been one case of multiple murders by guns. But we are lucky here in the UK as we are a island we can protect our borders well so the amount of legal guns are controlled. My best friend is a gamekeeper and he has several guns for wildlife management. I am pretty sure if I lived in South Africa or a ghetto in the US I would carry a gun. That said I see no need for one here as the UK is very safe and has a low murder rate by guns. Sure criminal gangs get there hands on them and our black on black gun crime is much higher than any other ethnic group. I am a believer in that people should be allowed a choice but if you have a criminal past or history of mental illness you should be banned from owning a gun. If someone has a gun and is stupid enough to abuse it then they will (hopefully) go to jail for a long time. Again it goes back to cause and effect and choice of the individual/s.
riaannieman 23-Jun-12, 01:13	The keyword is Responsible. Indeed, no criminal or mentally unstable person should be allowed such a powerful tool, and I support regular training, inspection of safekeeping facilities, and testing of mental faculties. As you point out, the UK can protect her borders quite efficiently, but other countries are part of huge continents with too many routes of entry by criminals to be policed adequately. But, please bear in mind, mentally unstable does not mean a person who goes to a psychiatrist or psychologist from time to time, as some legislation across the world would like us to believe. In some [civilized] countries there are no firearms allowed at all, and everything goes well there. In some other [civilized] countries, violent crime with firearms are rife, but then, analyze the incidents, and mostly the crimes are committed by criminals. I know that some family crimes are committed by usually responsible persons, such as family murders committed by parents, especially the patriarch. In that regard I propose regular mental screening- the frequency should be determined by the society and circumstances.
riaannieman 06-Jul-12, 11:40	Crime free town While researching my reply to boncox1 on another thread, I came across these articles: en.wikipedia.org www.freerepublic.com voices.yahoo.com www.wnd.com www.reuters.com It seems that the opposite of the grim forecasts of the anti gun lobbyists are proven true.
thumper 06-Jul-12, 12:39	In America, private gun ownership is enumerated in the document that created the government. Though some have abused the right to own private weapons over the years, I believe the good derived from private ownership far outweighs the bad.
brigadecommander 06-Jul-12, 18:06	a nice string quartet!!! a masterpiece of Dissonance.www.youtube.com
shamash 06-Jul-12, 18:17	Beethoven's String Quartet, Opus 135 <=====exquisite====> Thank you!
brigadecommander 06-Jul-12, 19:20	The Great Fugue. If you want to see Mathematics in different form check this out. Beethoven's Gross Fugue. The orchestras of the time could hardly play it.Even today they find it very hard. Yet it all fits together like a Nova exploding!!! www.youtube.com k
riaannieman 07-Jul-12, 09:13	Wrong thread guys Shamash, Brigadecommander, this is the wrong thread. Your posts must be on the one about classical music.
riaannieman 07-Jul-12, 09:17	Gun ownership Yes, Thumper, we have a similar situation here in SA, but that has been addresses the last couple of years. The problem is it has been addressed to the point where the population is being disarmed at an alarming rate. Our situation here is worrying me a lot.
thumper 07-Jul-12, 10:08	RiaanNieman Sadly, my knowledge of SA politics and legal system is lacking. Have the people there given the government permission to disarm them? If not, why allow it?
riaannieman 07-Jul-12, 11:48	Politics and gun ownership We have a majority government here: the ANC holds nearly 66% of the votes, not counting alliances and partnerships. That makes it quite easy for them to amend legislation as they wish. I think in the last general election the ANC got a 62% majority, but it could be a little more. I know it was less than 66%.
shamash 07-Jul-12, 13:03	Rian, this is no ordinary thread. . . Not all of us are accustomed on a daily basis to the value or use or even need for a gun. Not even by soldiers, though we feel we must use them. Golda Meir on the Six Day War told Egypt's Sadat: <<"We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours.">> And she looked ahead and saw a day when people would look back at our fighting with guns the way we, today, look back with horror and disbelief at cannibalism. There is actually a strong tradition -- well, in America, maybe not South Africa, although Gandhi did cut his teeth on civil disobedience in your country -- there is an honored tradition of when you find a soldier in uniform defending a corrupt or repressive government (for instance the Administration of Richard Nixon) -- when you find that soldier standing there with a gun in your face -- in other words in public putting it to your face with a weapon of deadly force: of padding up to him and sticking a flower blossom into the barrel of his rifle. It is part of who we are to occasionally answer a slap with a kiss, a threat with a hug, a voice of rage or unreasonable fear with a whisper of calm, or a firearm with a classical quartet. Come to think of it, that is informed by the same human spirit most of us share, and that could, for instance, take the form of your kissing that tortoise on releasing him into the wild.
brigadecommander 07-Jul-12, 16:23	Sorry but... i will boycott this thread. Not because i am against guns(i have three rifles and several handguns. But because in this Country(USA) the Far Right lies and says the Lefties are trying to take there guns away. When in reality all the Left wants(and any sensible people want) are reasonable laws on guns.Hunters don't need assault weapons!!! Hunters and marksmen don't need armor penetrating bullet's. Full background checks on would- be gun owners is simply a way of seeing the guns don't fall into the wrong hands. Yet loopholes allow criminals and NUTS to guy assault weapons at gun shows with little or no background checks!!!! When the left proposes reasonable gun control the National Rifle Association spends millions upon millions to stop any effective control of these lethal forms of 'WAR' weapons. Then tell hunters and marksmen...there going to take your guns away'!!!!! a blatant falsehood covering up there real motive which is to sell assault weapons and armor piecing bullet's to everyone who wants regardless of there criminal records. Bottom line; make money!! screw the children and innocent people killed every day by these bastards. I'm tired of this Bull!! I'm tired of FOX news talking heads. No one is trying to take my Rifles away!!! and no one will. All this reminds me of events leading to the Civil War.Then they CRIED...there gonna take our property away(slaves). I don't buy any of this BULL. Brigade-commander. PS; Perhaps in Africa there is a different situation. I cannot speak to that.
thumper 07-Jul-12, 20:14	Riaan Do you have a constitution or 'fixed' laws that are exceedingly difficult to change or can the laws be changed with the tide and who has the majority for a while? I guess this is an opportunity for me to expand my education and learn more about the SA culture and legal system.
thumper 07-Jul-12, 23:10	Riaan Even with this countries pro-gun Constitution as well as many pro-gun State Constitutions a small but very vocal minority work diligently to eliminate private firearms ownership. Some years back I contacted a group called Handgun Control Incorporated (They have since changed their name). They were a group dedicated to eliminating all handguns from the U.S. civilian population by whatever means they could. I contacted them to learn about them and to ask if there was anything I could do to help their cause. Their response to my inquiry was unexpected and a bit alarming. They were very forthcoming and informed me about much of their efforts, provided names and numbers of local contacts, etc. They also asked that I participate in one of their operations designed to turn public support away from the 'gun nuts'. The operation was simple and effective. They asked that I actually go out and buy a gun then to use it to shoot street signs, construction equipment, etc. along rural roads. They even suggested that people shoot a farm animal or some livestock that may be along a roadside fence line. They also said to be sure and take pictures of the damage/destruction in order to send them to the local news papers. The idea was to anger people about 'irresponsible and dangerous gun owners' and to provide 'supporting documentation' or 'proof' that guns weren't safe in society. Another tactic they employed was to find rock pits or gullies where people regularly went to target shoot and to dump garbage at those sites. The more the better. Refrigerators, stoves, and T.Vs were recomended. They said to make sure that all personal information be removed from the trash before dumping it. They even recomended shooting the stuf up a bit before you leave. The rationale here was to anger the land owners (Weyerhaeuser, Plumb Creek, etc.) so they would close the land to public access and further damage the gun community's reputation. Their public claim has always been, "We just want reasonable gun laws". Interesting people to claim to be so reasonable.
riaannieman 07-Jul-12, 23:53	I need to reply to three of you. Brigadecommander, I concur with your sentiments. I too believe that automatic weapons and military ammunition should not be made available to the general public. However, the sad truth is that one party is really pushing hard for the disarmament of the general public, citing atrocities from many years ago and pulling it all out of context. Unfortunately, the ANC is strong enough to do that. I think it is just a coincidence that they are toward the left. Shamas, look at my thread 'A Big Fight'- I say that war is futile. I would love to see a world where firearms are used for recreational activities only, not for war or criminal activities. I agree with your opinion as well. Thumper, our constitution can only be amended with a 75% majority. It has been done in 1999, but since then the current ruling party has lacked the numbers to do so again. However, the constitution has been changed significantly at the time. Since then, several other acts have been introduced and promulgated. For a lot of those, only a 66% majority is needed. I think it is a bit easier to do here than in the USA. Our political system is a little different to that of the USA, having only one state where you have 50. The central government has all the power in one place. I find it horrifying to learn of this group you mention. Have you ever tried to expose them for the frauds they are?
chrisforbes21 08-Jul-12, 02:11	I have had a message from gameknot so I am closing this thread thanks for your understanding
chrisforbes21 11-Jul-12, 01:08	This thread is now opened again Sorry for the delay I was just playing safe to make sure our club was not in breach of GK rules. This is not a subject close to my heart I have said my piece on it please keep the thread on topic.
thumper 16-Jul-12, 06:49	Riaan You ever hear of this guy? en.wikipedia.org www.youtube.com
riaannieman 16-Jul-12, 07:15	Yes I saw the movie, as well. There are some sentiments in the movie that I don't agree with or share, but overall it is a great movie that everyone with half a heart should see. My own view of politics enter here, and I know that I am the only person in the world to think this specific way in the whole world, so that opinion I will keep to myself. It is very contrary, rebellious, singular and there is a definite line that my views cross, that nobody else agrees with. This movie convinced me again that my point of view about the responsible, private ownership of firearms should be encouraged, and that the general public will be able to defend themselves against rabid bullies with firearms. Living in Africa, I also know about several similar situations all over the continent: Angola, DRC, Nigeria, Niger, Kongo, Sierra Leone, Cote d'Ivoire, Zimbabwe and many other countries. There are so many conflicts here that it is impossible to name them all, but everywhere the victims are those who can't defend themselves.
chrisforbes21 21-Jul-12, 21:26	Guns So some idiot goes into a cinema a shoots up innocent people. The right to bear arms. if you give these people the right to bear arms this will happen time and time again. Thank goodness I live in a civilized society in my country people do not have the right to have arms and we have a very low murder rate
astinkyfart 21-Jul-12, 21:59	chris That comes off rather offensive. So what makes your society so civilized? You still have murder, no? We have millions of gun owners that know how to handle guns. Idiots dont make a country uncivilized. If so then no one lives in a civilized society.
chrisforbes21 21-Jul-12, 22:10	it was meant to be offensive We had Dunblane we don't want that again and since we banned guns it has not happened again I would rather be offensive than innocent kids getting killed, fruit loops should not have access to guns
deadofknight 21-Jul-12, 22:49	Deleted by deadofknight on 21-Jul-12, 23:05.
softaire 21-Jul-12, 22:50	chris The U.S.A. had 32,310 traffic deaths last year... the lowest number since 1949. The U.S.A. had 12,632 deaths caused by gun homicide in 2007. Should we outlaw cars?
astinkyfart 21-Jul-12, 23:10	Chris Let me get this straight. You want to be offensive? You want to offend people with remarks about their country? You are purposely being arrogant in thinking your country is civilized while others arent? I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.
deadofknight 21-Jul-12, 23:12	Yah that's kinda what I was gathering. You see. He saying it is our entire nation that is not civilized because one guy is nuts.
brigadecommander 21-Jul-12, 23:27	yes England is more civilized!!!! they don't have the NRA there!!! After all why would they want a cooperation that wants to sell to anyone who wants, any weapon that there hearts desires without a background check? Want a AK-47 Assault Rifle with a thousand rounds of ammo? Sure we will sell it to you!! And if the liberals say something we can trot out that old slogan 'there gonna take your guns away'. Of course Hunters need a thousand rounds rounds of ammo and a Assault Rifle!! How else can they get that Mighty Deer!!!. So Bravo England!! your young children are a lot safer there then in this country!!!
astinkyfart 21-Jul-12, 23:35	BC There are so many dumb things in that post.
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