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 ChazIt is not an undue burden for anybody to get a photo id so they can prove themselves eligible to vote. Even if it were, it should be something every person is proud and happy to do. Remember the pictures of Iraqi's with the blue fingers walking through potentially lethal streets to go vote? The only reason the D's would not want proof of citizenship for voting is so that illegals could vote... there really can be no other explanation. It IS simple to understand. When you argue otherwise, you show a lack of respect for real American citizens, the Constitution, and the rule of law. That is also very simply to understand. |
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softy ... It is often a burden to get a photo ID ... not everyone drives, particularly the elderly; and, there is no legal requirement for American citizens to have a photo ID ... but you want everyone to have one. This honors the rule of law; you want to change existing law. I respect your opinion for what it is; I just disagree with it. |
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anomalocaris 01-Sep-12, 21:37 |
Chaz Chaz saying that its a burden for someone is silly. Many things are burdens for people but surely if someone can get to the polls every 4 years they can get an I.D. How is getting to the polls not a burden if someone is in a situation this dire?? You can get an I.D. easy chaz. you are talking in conspiracy theories now. As fair as I have seen you pretend to be to both sides, to go out on a limb like you are doing here is surprising. You have actually created a secret ulterior motive by the conservatives to hurt the poor and elderly. I really cant believe this came from you. Then again ,..I can. You have talked to the libs to much. You actually believe conservatives are evil. I want my elections to be for my people. Otherwise the people of Mexico are helping elect my leaders. Does this not raise a flag for you?? |
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stinky ... Many of us have been born into and are raised through a certain way of doing things by our families and communities. Most who post here have no idea what poverty is, or the plight of the elderly or disabled ... and most believe they know what others 'should do' despite their circumstances ... at least these others 'should' do what we have learned is right, right? I'm only saying there are other ways to look at things. If this seems not civil, then I will withdraw my discussion points. As an active poll worker here (Arizona just had their primary last Tuesday), I'm not aware of any attempts by undocumented aliens trying to vote (yes, there may have been a few, I'm not sure; but, it certainly was not an issue for the Tucson press). Getting photo IDs are not easy for many to get ... how many stories do you want me to relate? I have firsthand knowledge ... but if you're dismissing my point as a conspiracy theory, then it's not worth the trouble. I do not believe conservatives to be evil, but you say this. I do talk to liberals a lot ... I want to know why they think the way they do. I'm prob'ly a lot more center than you give me credit for. You seem willing to engage in meaningful dialogue ... do you want to continue? Or, do you want me to go away? |
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anomalocaris 01-Sep-12, 22:12 |
OK But since you ask, sure give me some examples of this. First hand examples as you say. |
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stinky ... |
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anomalocaris 02-Sep-12, 03:54 |
chaz I want to keep the American voting system free from non citizen voters. If you can think of a way other than I.D. im all for it. Making up a story about how hard it is, is silly. I would even be for an I.D. being made at the polls. |
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stinky ... I can see you and others here are trivializing the right to vote, explained by some sort of anti-poor or underprivileged reaction instead of pro-voting support (finding ways to help folks vote) ... but you're isolating certain groups in the process. I now more clearly understand your position. Accusing me of making up a story, or calling it silly says much about how you view this situation. I can also understand how you are isolated from these sorts of things. I respect your choices; I just don't agree with them. |
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anomalocaris 02-Sep-12, 14:25 |
WOW Again chaz I ask you, how do you suppose we make sure Americans only vote in our elections? Forget the I.D. You tell me a way to do this. |
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Some form of identification needs to be required, yes. But whatever I might suggest, you'll likely disagree with it (e.g., utility bill, birth certificate, voter registration card, etc.). Voter fraud, however, is a miniscule issue in this country ... it does not have to be issue it has become ... it appears to be manufactured for political purposes. And, photo IDs do look like a poll tax. |
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anomalocaris 02-Sep-12, 15:06 |
Really? "but it is a convenient conservative position to minimize the ability of minorities and the poor to vote (since they lean liberal)" Chaz can you even fathom how someone can be confused about where you stand? "Some form of identification needs to be required, yes. But whatever I might suggest, you'll likely disagree with it (e.g., utility bill, birth certificate, voter registration card, etc.)." 1. You make it sound like I will disagree on principle. 2. You just said some of these people were homeless and how hard it is to come up with some of this stuff then you use the same stuff for I.D.? 3. Chaz, before you go all out on how hard it is for people to get an I.D. perhaps we could discuss how they can get an I.D. Perhaps if its required we could even get people to show they can afford and I.D. and they could get a free one that would last for ten years like a passport. I just disagree its that hard. You have to have an I.D. for welfare, food stamps, and things like this. Sounds like a lot of the people you describe would fit this category and already be prepared. My idea is to identify American voters not put out anyone. How we go about can be discussed. Before you accuse people (Republicans) of having a convenient stance you might want to get the whole story. You have listened to the other side too long. |
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stinky ... |
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anomalocaris 02-Sep-12, 16:34 |
Chaz |
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anomalocaris 02-Sep-12, 17:10 |
I am |
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Here is a perfect lack of communication---conservatives are doing the exact opposite in their minds...they are raising the value of voting to a higher level, not trivializing it. They want it to be important, and remain that way, not trivialized by those that cannot vote. Part of the problem here is poor communication. If we all want to ensure that Americans, and none others vote, why is there a problem? It is because politics has made it so that liberals are branding R's as hateful and mean spirited and unwilling to make access easy to the voting booth. I have not heard one R say that they want to diminish the right to vote for anyone. I don't hear it, and I don't sense not. That is a liberal myth... My guess is that if most R's would be happy to lose an election that was void of fraud and illegal voting. It is that important to them. Liberals seem to view this as a ploy to win an election. It isn't. |
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DOK |
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dmaestro 02-Sep-12, 19:05 |
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dm ... |
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Dok ... |
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In response to your well written post above; I believe that your arguments here are quite fairly stated and more legitimate than the broad strokes you typically make that denigrate conservative thinking and ideas. The issue I took with you is simple--you contended that there is evidence demonstrating a GOP movement to deter voting for the sake of wrongful deterrence and that there is not legitimacy behind the idea that fraud occurs and that we ought to protect the ballot box. In essence this is about stopping Democrats from voting. I will freely admit that there is anecdotal story-telling that might cause you to believe this, but there is no evidence of the same. There is no factual scheme to disenfranchise voters that you can point to-- You stated the following: <<From the GOP legal briefs, we see an emphasis on claims of the necessity of preclusion rather than evidence of an actual significant issue with voter fraud. This is a weak argument for necessity or reasonability. And in rebuttal we see clear evidence of a motivation outside of the stated intent of improving electoral integrity, from comments by a GOP leader in PA that voter ID laws would allow Romney win to win the state of Pennsylvania, to similar comments by a GOP leader in Wisconsin about that state, to the most outrageous example so far, the GOP bill sponsor in South Carolina responding with "Amen" to an email complaint about possibly providing free IDs for voting by stating "It would be like a swarm of bees going after a watermelon." (www.washingtonpost.com).>>> Frankly, the GOP comments cited are stupid and show no broad disenfranchising scheme by the Party, show no "clear evidence" AS YOU SUGGEST and your outrage is a bit feigned at best...two comments and an Amen are hardly "evidence, demonstrably indicating bad faith by the GOP". Hardly... You continue: <<This supports the contention that the GOP acknowledges and finds acceptable disproportionate impact in its calculus in pushing these bills. >> The support you would like to invent here is so benign it is below the watermark set by the rest of your well-written remarks. THE GOP ACKNOWLEDGES NOTHING OF THE SORT. And the idea that disenfranchising voters is acceptable cannot be inferred without severe bias. Your opinion may remain but studies, evidence and hard facts are not to be found. Anywhere. Finally, I do believe that you have a good grasp of the politics involved but sometimes we see unfairly the faults of others that we cannot help but confess to in ourselves. I see this to be the real culprit with Democrats here. They would use this wicked calculus without hesitation were it a smart political move for them and so they assume that the R's are doing what they naturally do all of the time. I believe this to be more accurate. Democrats fear losing any votes--even if they are not valid and still feel the sting of losing the 2000 election. They are fighting the ID laws that States wish to enjoy because of this fear. You are honest about this. In the end, your comments are a good read and much more interesting and persuasive when they are not laced with hyperbole and fictional ploys by the opponent. You should do this more often. Dok |
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dmaestro 03-Sep-12, 10:47 |
>>From the GOP legal briefs, we see an emphasis on claims of the necessity of preclusion rather than evidence of an actual significant issue with voter fraud. This is a weak argument for necessity or reasonability. And in rebuttal we see SOME evidence THAT CAN BE INTERPRETED AS a motivation outside of the stated intent of improving electoral integrity, from comments by a GOP leader in PA that voter ID laws would allow Romney win to win the state of Pennsylvania, to similar comments by a GOP leader in Wisconsin about that state, to the most outrageous example so far, the GOP bill sponsor in South Carolina responding with "Amen" to an email complaint about possibly providing free IDs for voting by stating "It would be like a swarm of bees going after a watermelon." (www.washingtonpost.com). WHILE THESE INCIDENTS ARE SUBJECT TO MORE THAN ONE INTERPRETATION AND DO NOT PROVE A SYSTEMATIC PATTERN, THEY HAVE BEEN USED TO SUPPORT the contention that the GOP acknowledges and finds acceptable disproportionate impact in its calculus in pushing these bills, SOMETHING THE GOP DENIES.>> In summary, a fair critique, giving me the opportunity to clarify further. |
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MD Dem drops out of Congressional race- voted in 2 states in 2008 and 2006 ****************************************************************** Wendy Rosen, the Democratic challenger to Republican Rep. Andy Harris in the 1st Congressional District, withdrew from the race Monday amid allegations that she voted in elections in both Maryland and Florida in 2006 and 2008. It was unclear, however, whether she could remove her name from the ballot with the election less than two months away. Under state law, a candidate has until 70 days before an election to remove his or her name from the ballot. The deadline for the Nov. 6 election passed on Aug. 28. www.rogerhedgecock.com |
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Softy ... As an aside, it is amazing how many Latinos are taking personal offense against Republicans for pushing so hard on this issue. One might think the GOP would have a better strategy for actually attracting Latinos ... they really need them in several states, particularly Florida. |
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voter fraud unmasked. The Guardian explains it thus: In April 2009, Romney sold his longtime Massachusetts home at 171 Marsh Street and appeared to move to La Jolla, California. He did not own a home in Massachusetts again until July 2010. Sometime in 2009, probably late in the year, Romney filed his 2008 tax return, identifying the address where he lived at the time of filing. He has refused to disclose a copy of that return. Sometime in or shortly before January 2010 – that is, not long after he filed his 2008 return – Romney registered to vote in Massachusetts, stating on his voter registration form that he lived in his son Tagg's basement at 18 Greensbrook Way. In January 2010, Romney voted in Massachusetts' special election, which would be a felony if he was not a Massachusetts resident at the time. somehow, i find it hard to believe that mitt and ann, multi-millionaires, were actually living in their son's basement. where is the outrage? this man is running for president, and appears to have commited voter fraud. and the republicans, who are making so much stink about voter fraud do not see to care? what gives? |
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chaz not amazing at all. they know (even if stinky, softy, dok and thumper do not) that this whole thing is a blatant attempt to disenfranchise the latino and african american vote. why? because they do not vote republican. why? because republican policies are horrible for people who are poor or in the middle class. |
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z ... |
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chaz Please don't ever say that you are an independent. You will embarrass some good people. |
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