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From	Message
changeling 11-Dec-12, 17:59	Another one! Yes, the US has great gun laws! www.stuff.co.nz
astinkyfart 11-Dec-12, 19:30	Here we go again Whats the big deal? Ten times that many people died in car crashes. Its an ideology change. Nothing wrong with guns, its people. Why do people not look up overdose incidents? Drownings? Its all in the way you think. Guns are evil and I will prove it. Swimming pools are friendly so death by swimming pool is not as dead. Is it because gun deaths have more witnesses? They are no more deadly than any number of things yet even with lower death rates they are demonized.
changeling 11-Dec-12, 21:20	I would imagine stinky that ALL Americans would consider swimming pools, cars, medication drugs, amongst other things, a necessity of everyday life. Not so guns, perhaps half your population and that is being lenient.
chaz5 11-Dec-12, 22:07	... I don't understand the connection between car crashes and swimming pools on one hand, and guns on the other. The example has nothing to do with the intent or non-intent to kill/die. The analogy doesn't work.
changeling 11-Dec-12, 22:22	I know that chaz, others seem not to.
astinkyfart 12-Dec-12, 04:22	Change Trhats the thing, you dont understand everyones way of life. Not in the least. Guns are a huge way of life here. Hunting is huge. Change until you understand everyones way of life, you just dont. Death is death guns is just another way some people die, just like swimming pools and drugs.
changeling 12-Dec-12, 05:31	I do understand stinky, it is not everyone's way of life even in the US. Thew point being that handguns in particular are not really a necessity, unless of course you are having old fashioned gunfights at noon. Yes I know that the criminal elements will always get them somewhere. The arms manufacturers are earning huge profits on death dealing devices deliberately. That is what is wrong with the culture. I keep hearing all the arguments for hunting and so on. Who in their right mind hunts with a handgun?
chaz5 12-Dec-12, 08:31	... for a certain few, handguns and rifles are part of their cultural heritage and current way of life, true. For a vast majority of Americans, however, that is not true at all. It thence becomes a question of how much does a minority cultural position gets imposed upon the majority. If it were merely a question of hunting deer, I think the majority tolerates that quite well ... gangs in the street, not so well; having a gun in your home for protection is justifiable to many outside the majority too ... having assault weapons, not so much. Is this only a matter of degree? Or, is it a black/white either/or issue?
softaire 12-Dec-12, 08:41	chaz, change If you are so interested in changing views on guns by society, why not start with changing the views of the Black society? THAT is where most of the hand gun deaths and injuries occur. That would be a huge reduction in the detrimental use of hand guns, wouldn't you say? Why not make it your goal to convince Blacks that they don't need guns, or at least, that they need to change their attitudes about them.
chaz5 12-Dec-12, 08:46	Softy ... ... you're changing the subject again.
softaire 12-Dec-12, 11:21	chaz So What? Topics within threads change and "evolve". You need to acquiesce to that fact, accept it, and adapt to the change. Besides, who died and made you "thread monitor"? And, fyi... my post was in answer to your question: "is this only a matter of degree? Or, is it a black/white either/or issue?" and your question: "It thence becomes a question of how much does a minority cultural position gets imposed upon the majority?" I thought my reply was quite well related to those questions.
chaz5 12-Dec-12, 11:50	Softy ... ... and why are you so testy? It doesn't foster good conversation. I was merely observing your change of subjects ... you're free to post what you please.
astinkyfart 12-Dec-12, 16:39	AND another one!! Boy's drowning prompts pool warning Tuesday, December 11, 2012 » 03:20pm The drowning death of a four-year-old boy in his family's Melbourne pool has highlighted the importance of pool safety as the weather heats up. Police say the boy was found about 6pm (AEDT) on Monday after his mother had propped open a gate to clean the pool in Belgrave Heights, in the city's outer east. Robert Caulfield, president of accident prevention group Kidsafe Victoria, says children often get into pool enclosures due to faulty latches or gates that are left open. He says parents need to be 100 per cent certain their pool is safely guarded. 'One thing we do see is, over a 12-month period, trees near pools can grow quite a bit, so branches that were quite small one year can now be used to get into the pool,' Mr Caulfield said. 'New items of furniture ... these all represent hazards that a child can use.' Kidsafe Victoria has released a series of summer water safety tips with a warning that more than a quarter of all toddler drowning incidents occur in swimming pools. Mr Caulfield said the summer is when the most drowning deaths occur and he has urged parents and carers to ensure they are actively supervising children around water. 'Children drown quickly and silently - 20 seconds is all it takes for a toddler to drown.' Between July 2011 and June 2012, 21 children up to the age of four drowned in Australia, according to Kidsafe Victoria. Mr Caulfield said near-drownings can have devastating effects as well. 'For every drowning death there are many more near-drowning incidents which can result in a child receiving permanent brain damage and disability,' Mr Caulfield said.
changeling 12-Dec-12, 16:47	stinky There are quite extensive pool (and beach) safety campaigns every year here in Australia. What is your point? It still does not negate the fact that guns are designed to kill, swimming pools are not. If children are taught to swim they become safer, on the other hand one cannot teach a child how to deflect bullets.
thumper 12-Dec-12, 16:54	Change It appears that these things are so dangerous, so deadly that they kill far more people than an item you say it's only function is to kill. Man, that's dangerous. I wonder how many lives a swimming pool has saved.
astinkyfart 12-Dec-12, 16:59	Change Teaching a child to deflect bullets is like teaching a child to walk on water. Its NOT what you teach. Gun safety is taught extensively too. What is your point?
changeling 12-Dec-12, 17:07	Come off it thumper. You know full well what guns are designed for. There is nothing else designed to kill that is freely available to the citizenry because they want one, or two, or three, or a bigger one, or an automatic one! The arguments on all other causes of death are completely invalid. The notion that guns are designed for personal safety reasons and such like is pure hogwash, there sole purpose is to cause harm to another. All the rhetoric about gun culture, safety, arming oneself against a rogue government etc. is a smokescreen to justify boys having their shiny bang bang toys.
changeling 12-Dec-12, 17:08	I think it marvelous that none of the proponents of gun ownership ever admit what it is they are designed for, specifically!
dmaestro 12-Dec-12, 17:30	Correct. Apologies to Marley but this comes to mind. "All of a sudden I see thumper around, aiming to shoot me down. So i shot, I shot him down. I say..."
astinkyfart 12-Dec-12, 17:35	Change You really show your lack of knowledge about guns. Why are other causes of death that are proved to be statistically far more dangerous invalid? Why is a swimming pool designed for fun that kills 10 people worse in your mind than a gun that kills 1 person? I dont get your logic.
dmaestro 12-Dec-12, 17:39	Because pools are not designed solely to kill. Guns are!
dmaestro 12-Dec-12, 17:41	But I do not favor outright bans.
astinkyfart 12-Dec-12, 17:43	DM Guns are designed to kill but even at that they don't kill as many people as other things. So what is the issue? They are not designed to kill innocent people, they are not designed for murder. Its misuse not guns.
dmaestro 12-Dec-12, 17:46	I am not trying to ban guns. But we need to do a better job of keeping guns out of the wrong hands.
astinkyfart 12-Dec-12, 17:50	DM Brilliant!!
softaire 12-Dec-12, 17:53	change Your attitude reflects that of the liberal left. You are not interested in the preservation of human life, even though you protest that you are. If you were interested in the preservation of human life, you would be mounting a concerted effort to reduce the deaths caused by all those "other" things. But, you want to limit guns. Your agenda is to limit gun ownership, or ban it out right. It doesn't matter that they do far less damage than those "other" things, relatively speaking and are far down the list of most lethal. Your agenda is to limit guns and so you will ignore all rational arguments that support their usage.
changeling 12-Dec-12, 18:16	softy I campaign on many issues, ( ) it just happens that gun control keeps cropping up in here somewhere (not always by me I might add!). I am not against guns for genuine hunting purposes, or for arming the military (or police forces) for defense of the 'realm' so to speak. I am against the proliferation of hand guns and automatic weapons for use by the general public. I know some will argue that they are needed 'just in case'. The thought that the population really have any chance against the US government these days in any insurrection is laughable. How about the old fashioned controls like banning ALL firearms within city limits (I'd guess they may be some towns in the US that may already do this). The point I make (and others have made consistently), and keep reiterating, is that guns are made solely to damage, maim, and kill. There is no getting around that fact regardless of culture and 'rights'. Swimming pools and cars do not come into that equation whatsoever (or medication drugs, ladders etc, for that matter). Liberal me! Yes, but not as much as you like to think I am.
dmaestro 12-Dec-12, 18:18	Who said the left does not want to limit deaths from other causes as well. What are the uses of guns other than killing that we are opposed to?
changeling 12-Dec-12, 18:18	BTW: The comment "far less damage" is a misrepresentation of firearms. They do damage, they do kill, they are designed for that purpose.
astinkyfart 12-Dec-12, 19:48	Its how guns are made to kill. Find me a gun that is created to use in public to murder innocent people other than in a situation of war. You wont find one. They are NOT designed to be used that way. If you want to get technical its bullets not guns   I don't think less damage is a misrepresentation at all. Its a true statement. Less damage still infers damage, not as much damage.
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