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Ben Franklin Wisdoms
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softaire
14-Dec-12, 10:05

Ben Franklin Wisdoms
Ben Franklin might have had something to say about Barack Obama’s twisted vendetta against the “rich.” Here is an interesting article about Ben Franklin
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The great and wise Franklin, sounding much like an 18th Century Jack Kemp, wrote a fascinating response in 1784 in answer to an English editor accusing Americans of predilections towards luxury. Franklin, despite his own personal frugality, argued that a taste for luxury might not be a bad thing.

“Is not the hope of being one day able to purchase and enjoy luxuries a great spur to labour and industry? May not luxury, therefore, produce more than it consumes?” Even self-indulgence to the point of dissipation had its advantages: “A vain, silly fellow builds a fine house, furnishes it richly, lives in it expensively, and in a few years ruins himself. But the masons, carpenters, smiths and other honest tradesmen have been by his employ assisted in maintaining and raising their families; the farmer has been paid for his labour and encouraged; and the estate is now in better hands.”

Franklin followed with a story about how a gift of a stylish (but unnecessary) cap to a certain young lady spurred all the neighboring girls to want similar caps, expensive though they might be – and, in order to afford them, the girls began knitting mittens for sale in Philadelphia. A little cottage industry was begun; the girls were better off for earning the money, and the cold Philadelphians suddenly had a new source of mittens to warm their hands. “And you know,” he added, “that industry has continued, and is likely to continue and increase to a much greater value, and answer better purposes.”

This account comes from the superb year 2000 biography of Franklin, The First American, by H. W. Brands. The same book recounted Franklin’s ideas about the best way to help disadvantaged people escape from poverty. As Brands described it, Franklin questioned:

…the English statutes for the maintenance of the poor. Franklin asked himself whether these laws had not instilled in the poor “a dependence that very much lessens the care of providing against the wants of old age.” He did not question the morality of aiding the poor, only the efficacy. “To relieve the misfortunes of our fellow creatures is concurring with the Deity; ’tis Godlike, but if we provide encouragements for laziness, and supports for folly, may it not be found fighting against the order of God and nature…?”

Finally, Franklin argued against national indebtedness and against a failure to be dependable partners for national allies:

If we do not convince the world that we are a nation to be depended on for fidelity in treaties, if we appear negligent in paying our debts, and ungrateful to those who have served and befriended us, our reputation, and all the strength it is capable of procuring, will be lost, and fresh attacks will be encouraged.

Other, pithier statements have been attributed to Franklin, along similar lines: “When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” And: “The U.S. Constitution doesn’t guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself.” And: “I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.” And, finally: “I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power.”

Now it might be said that neither the bons mots nor the considered philosophy of a man who died 222 years ago, even one as celebrated as Franklin, should be particularly relevant today. On the contrary, perhaps no man in history has better exemplified the essential American character than Franklin. Born into what now would be called a “working class” family, a runaway from an apprenticeship at age 17 with barely the clothes on his back, Franklin was the quintessential self-made man, duly honored for multitudinous discoveries in science, for his writing and publishing, for his civic organizing ranging from postal improvements to fire departments to organized militias – and, of course, for his great statesmanship.

Before anybody else, Franklin (way back in 1754) was proposing a union of the American colonies; more effectively than anyone else, he was carrying America’s case in Europe against taxation without representation; more cannily than any other diplomat, he talked France into joining the colonies’ side in the Revolutionary War, thus providing the means of victory, and at the ripe age of 81, he was the first to propose the compromise on Senate representation that saved the Constitutional Convention.

Franklin’s wisdom is applicable today because it is wisdom that has been successful every time it has been tried in these United States. The free market, combined with a limited government, spurs industry, creates jobs and diminishes poverty, far better than any government program. It is wisdom we should always heed.

cfif.org
thumper
14-Dec-12, 10:25

Thanks Softie. Franklin is one of those men that I admire. Among my books about him is, 'Benjamin Franklin, An American Life' by Walter Isaacson. A great read and very informative.
I will add H. W. Brands' book to my library.
astinkyfart
14-Dec-12, 20:45

Softy
We have already tried to tell the libs that the rich provide jobs, they dont care. Either we are all poor or someone pays!
chaz5
15-Dec-12, 07:20

Stinky ...
... that the rich provide jobs is only partially true, and it's used as "the" excuse for the rich to get richer. In the 1990s, the rich were taxed at a higher rate ... and there was a booming economy. The two (rich = jobs) just are not as connected as you would like to believe.

Further, there is a general public sentiment around the country that the rich are not paying their fair share. The wealthy simply must sit at the table and pony up during these depressed times ... and thereupon influence public sentiment. Even corporations are agreeing with this sentiment.
softaire
15-Dec-12, 08:04

chaz
Once again, I'll risk you saying that we have discussed this before, but I'm going to try again, since you started it with your reply to Stinky.

I assume you believe that the Constitution, Bill of Rights and our founding documents such as the Declaration of Independence plus all the legislation determined Constitutional by the Supreme Court means that citizens are meant to be treated equally and fairly by the government.

But, you have never yet addressed HOW taking more private property from one person than another is fair or equal.

(and btw, I am not saying I necessarily disagree in whole or in part with that), but I'd like to know how your justify that. What is your reasoning for allowing an unfair and unequal application of law?
changeling
15-Dec-12, 08:14

Flat tax rate for all, anyone? What percentage would be equitable? Infrastructure, the military, police forces, firemen and teachers do not pay for themselves.
softaire
15-Dec-12, 09:50

change
I have advocated a flat tax for all as the best solution. It applies equally and hurts equally all players. It can be set high enough so that the "needed" programs are funded. There are all sorts of scenarios and variations possible, if we start with that premise.

thumper
15-Dec-12, 10:01

10% flat tax. If they can't get their job done with that, it's time to cut back or get a different job. Government operating beyond 10% is too powerful and intrusive.
astinkyfart
15-Dec-12, 10:02

chaz
Some call it class warfare,I call it jealousy. Money envy, a way to blame their failures in life on someone else. I don't have this or that because that guy is rich.

The only problem I have with rich people is when they get into politics. If you have a company and you can become a billionaire because of your products then so be it. If you have a company and you get into politics and you start dealing under the table and forcing tax money to be used for your products or passing laws that favor your company then I have a HUGE problem with it.
chaz5
15-Dec-12, 10:30

Stinky ...
... I don't disagree with your 'sentiment' nor your 'suggestions' ... and there will always be some jealousy I s'pose among those who have not. But, we have a suffering middle class that is growing smaller in large part because of our unfair tax structure and greed among the top 2%. We prob'ly disagree about how to remedy the issue, but I think we're more aligned that you think. If the middle glass gets too small, virtually no one will have any property or assets ... and there will be no economy at all.
changeling
15-Dec-12, 16:01

Is the real problem on taxation the loop holes that by far benefit the rich (and corporations)?
softaire
15-Dec-12, 16:34

chaz
I am waiting for your honest discussion of my post at 8:04 this morning, Did you miss it?
chaz5
15-Dec-12, 19:44

Softy ...
... I'm not sure where you're going with your repetitions. We need to be treated fairly, but not necessarily equally ... this has come up over and over. Where are you going with this? Many aspects of taxation could be defined as unequal ... but these are long-standing laws (income taxes, inheritance taxes, etc.). What is your point? I can't answer a question unless I know what in the World you're talking about.
thumper
15-Dec-12, 19:48

Equally is objective, 'fairly' is subjective. What's 'fair' according to you is not according to me.
chaz5
15-Dec-12, 19:52

... then to whom, or by whom, do we decide what is fair? Or, are you saying this is unnecessary?
thumper
15-Dec-12, 19:59

You tell us. You're the one pleading for 'fairness'. I lean towards equality.
chaz5
15-Dec-12, 20:03

... I've stated my opinion ... and I've asked a question. I'm not trying to fence here; I was aiming for some honest discussion.
thumper
15-Dec-12, 20:22

Your 'opinions' as stated:
"The wealthy simply must sit at the table and pony up during these depressed times ..."

"But, we have a suffering middle class that is growing smaller in large part because of our unfair tax structure and greed among the top 2%."

It seems that you've elect yourself to decide this so called 'fairness' criteria that you want used. Again, I prefer equality.
Those comments sure sound like a hard left DM, not a self-proclaimed centrist (wink, wink). That's what happens when you make definitive comments. Best get back to the doublespeak.
softaire
15-Dec-12, 20:28

chaz
You rely on the statement that "you have stated your opinion before", or "we have discussed this before" in order to dodge and hide from direct questions so long, it defines who you are.

There can be no "honest" discussion when you refuse to offer your reasons and opinions. The fact that you have different reasons and opinions is what is important. I want to hear them and debate them.

You want to hide from them and slink away without discussion. You seem afraid to lay out what you believe and why you believe it.

I have asked you why you believe that we should tax somebody unequally from others. That is a fair and honest question. It could have a reasonable answer. What is your answer?
chaz5
15-Dec-12, 20:31

Thumper ...
... that the middle is growing smaller is common news. The "greed" part is my opinion. Now, what is your question?
chaz5
15-Dec-12, 20:33

Softy ...
... are you just latching onto Thumper again? The rich should pay more because they have more ... equality of taxation is not fair.

It's becoming obvious again that you're not interested in discussion. Sorry. Bye.
softaire
15-Dec-12, 20:42

chaz
Sorry. Bye?

That's your answer to my honest questions?

Do you really think ANYBODY believes you are interested in "honest discussion"? After that?

I don't know why you are afraid to present your views. It is not like they can be right or wrong answers. They are your opinion, just like my views are my opinion.

When you make statements and fail to give your reason, especially after being asked, it leads people to make speculations. I speculate that you are a leftist and can not answer my questions.

But, you are free to debate that and give me some argument. I'd welcome it. Consider that a challenge.

chaz5
15-Dec-12, 21:02

Softy ...
... you're playing games again. Get honest! I give my opinions, and you play games. Sorry. This is getting tiresome.
softaire
15-Dec-12, 21:05

chaz
Sorry. I consider that a pretty lame and weak response to a challenge.

If you are too old and tired to play the game, protect your values, or present your views, then maybe you should retire.
chaz5
15-Dec-12, 21:15

Softy ...
... what kind of comment is that? Good grief, Softy, just what "game" are you talking about?
softaire
15-Dec-12, 21:20

Good night Chaz. Sweet Dreams.



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