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 God loves you, part 2 |
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DM And I appreciate that some people don't care and value their traditions above the written word. There is nothing new under the sun. |
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tat Be specific so we can actually talk about something. You change the topic of discussion so much every time you've painted yourself into a corner that I'm not sure, what nonsense you're on about at the present time. |
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changeling 02-Apr-13, 06:44 |
tat has provided so much written evidence of the early start to Christianity that it leaves the new comers far behind grasping at straws and insisting that your new churches are the way and the only ones relevant in the search for Christ and god. What a funny bunch you are (solarscriptura, blindfaith & inhisservice). Even your monikers are a monument to how you believe. All this talk and babble about end days, the afterlife, god's judgments on who is worthy and who will be judged not worthy of his redemption is still a moot point if you cannot prove that your god actually exists. To my knowledge this has never been done. To say the onus is on the unbelievers is farcical. tat has given almost perfect argument that you all spring from the catholic faith yet some of you still persist in this holier than thou attitude. Nicaea for instance was an agreement for political ends. Nothing at all to do with faith as such (except for the acceptance by ALL there of the trinity). I doubt very much any of the rabid Christians posting know anything at all about the Eastern Orthodox Church and the similarities (tat and JD aside!). I have lived in houses older than some of your churches/sects of Christianity with much more verifiable provenance and history. I have read about theologians 'proving' this and that. I do not think some of you know what theologian means. It is not a factual concept to start with, no matter how many say they 'know' the word of god, or they know the meanings behind Christ's teachings. It is all supposition and faith based. Much of the teachings of your Christ were already recorded and written by others some centuries before the presumed Christ arrived. Going back to the original post: For anyone to say "god loves you" with any conviction is predicate on the knowledge of said god's mind. Even a Catholic priest would not presume that much. I would suggest to the newer Christian 'faiths' that they have a few good long discussions with a few Jesuit priests, it may open a few eyes out there. I asked a question very early on in the first thread along the lines of 'How do you know god is 'male'. I don't think it was answered. I also gave the argument that the very first book genesis was supposedly written by Moses and that there was no evidence of the man ever existing in the place he was supposed to have led his people from (a place where good record keeping was the norm of the day). This also was not refuted. If you Christians cannot refute even that, how then can you possibly believe in all the rest? The answer to my first question is ambiguous of course, but have any of you really studied it? Genesis is a contradiction itself: Genesis Chapter 1 verse 26: (The Holy Bible, King James Version). "...And god said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon th earth...." Some may argue that it is akin to the royal 'we' in the English language. As this book was a translation from a language that does not have an equivalent, and the royal 'we' did not come into being for many centuries even after the King James Bible was set down, even in the English understanding of the term cannot be used. How are we then to read this, literally or as an interpretation? We must take some note within that passage of the words 'our' 'we'. In the next verse (27) It is stated: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. One interpretation is that 'he' 'they' 'it' created male ad female as equals. None of the religions from that base does so. Is that going against god's word right from the start? This whole nonsense of male being superior which all three religions stemming from the book of Moses has been built is almost certainly a misunderstanding right from the start.. The 'literalists' should hang their collective heads in shame for the disservice they have bestowed on women since the advent of these religions. The 'interpreters', well what can one say? Are all interpretations valid or just the one from the particular sect one is a member of? When it comes down to brass tacks the whole of all three religions are 'beliefs' pure and simple. The damage, misery and mayhem that has been caused to others who do not believe, and each other!(that still continues today,) is quite possibly the most evil 'man' has had to endure throughout the ages. There is now much mockery and derision of religions by atheists (some), Christians in particular I note cry 'foul', and in countries like the US still insist that there way of life, their morals, their rules, their 'interpretations of what god desires must be enshrined in common or legislative law so that ALL must obey their tenets. At least atheists are not torturing, crucifying, maiming, or murdering believers for their actual beliefs (or none beliefs) in any given deities' name, yet! It appears that logic and reason are not a requirement of any religion or belief in a god. In the end, religions and gods are simply a way of explaining life and death from an age when mankind did not have the knowledge available in today's world. The sooner knowledge, reason and logic takes over from religion and its archaic doctrines, the sooner this planet and everything on it, and in it will be better off. |
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Change |
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changeling 02-Apr-13, 08:53 |
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changeling And tat hasn't provided for much that she is actually arguing about actually. Protestantism did obviously come out of the Roman Catholic Church as at the time RCC was the only game in town. It's not relevant to the issues being brought up about the Holy Scriptures. The Word was given to the body of Christ, not the "RCC". The RCC did not create the scriptures. Plenty of good scholarly work in this area date the new testament books back the first century, with the oldest existent manuscripts for most new testament books dating back to the 100s AD. The more information we find about the books of the new testament. The evidence for the existence of Moses himself comes directly from the history maintained by a people for a few thousand years. To say the Moses didn't exist is just kind of silly. We find less documented evidence for many historical contemporaries of Moses and we do not doubt their existence. Furthermore the Bible does not bestow any disservice onto women. Women are not second class citizens in God's eyes. To make an argument otherwise is to simply be intellectually dishonest and twist the Word of God in a manner that serve and agenda - a godless one. If you're comfortable with that level of intellectual dishonesty, that's fine. Also, I fail to see where atheism is some kind of panacea. Believers of many different beliefs are under persecution every day in China for simply having belief. Atheist leaders have killed many more people in the modern age than any "religion", Christian or otherwise - Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot - all in the name of the State. Ironically humans will always substitute authority for another . . . You may want to argue that the good atheists don't do kill people, well . . . neither do good believers of any faith. The Bible does not support torturing, maiming, or murdering unless twisted. Lastly, faith is not completely blind. A belief in a higher power is tenable and is not completely outside of any logic or reason. Fear about life or death is hardly an explanatory mechanism for faith than is the idea that those who lack belief do so simply because they want to live like immoral louts. I'd say for someone so easily offended by something like God's love, you sure do go out of your way to be offensive back, not that I'm particularly offended. I mean if you're going to play the "I'm offended card", and make a case that people shouldn't be offensive towards you, don't you think it's more than a little hypocritical to then turn around and be as offensive as you can? No one here has forced anything on you. No one here had judged you. No one here makes you read anything written here. No one here had persecuted you. Which makes me wonder who has? Maybe you should go have words with *that* person because it's not us. This conversation started about God's love and as it turns out no one wanted to hear it, no even a few of the believers who stopped by. Ok. My bad. I wasn't here to argue with anyone about God's love. Then the conversation morphed into something quite different, and it's largely been a discussion between believers regarding scripture itself, it's origin, and it's place. None of which should even concern you, so it really makes me wonder why you're back in here. It seems just to cause ruckus for the sake of causing ruckus, and I wonder what purpose does that serve? And I can't think of a single purpose that serves, not really. |
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Change I've known you to be more knowledgeable about scripture than the average bear, but you also seem to have a disdain for 'religion' in general and a special hatred and contempt for Christians in particular. That's your right of course but it's not an excuse to mock or belittle newcomers. Rather stand on your knowledge of the subject than belittle the person. I know it's a fine line at times but you know the drill. |
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changeling 02-Apr-13, 10:03 |
Please deliver any verifiable evidence of the man Moses by any credible source other than the bible. The bible has many instances of disservice to women. It is a religion based book written by men. For starters women are not allowed an opinion much less able to speak on religious matters. They are considered chattels or possessions of men. Speaking of intellectual dishonesty, do you believe the bible is the literal word of god? The bible does actually support murder, etc. read it again, in fact in some instances it is directed by god himself. Persons without faith want to live like immoral louts? How so? Because they do not believe in your god? That argument has raged for a very long time. The very idea that one cannot have good or decent morals without god or the belief in god is total rubbish. Yes, faith is completely blind to any evidence that contradicts the book faith is based upon. My stance on offense where believers constantly push their dogma and preaching onto another who does not need or require it to live a decent life with love is relevant, that alone has caused untold harm down through the ages, conveniently forgotten and/or left out. As one poster has said previously, it is their duty to spread the word to all and sundry. It seems no disagreement is allowed then? The discussion should concern everyone who has a stake in life and community. I will cause ruckus to the same extent as those who insist we must take note of 'god's' word or be damned to some sort of hell by the self righteous preachers who cannot ever know the mind of the god they believe in. |
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changeling 02-Apr-13, 10:14 |
thumper The contempt you see for Christianity is no different from any other religion, it just so happens that when the preaching brigade show up every now and again they are usually Christians, not too many Muslims or Jews preach their version of religious dogma in these threads. I would argue with them equally. It appears that the religiously inclined can write whatever they want, and that is acceptable, not so for the vocal atheist? |
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changeling Like, I said, there is simply no reason NOT to believe that Moses existed. Have the Jews been wrong for this long? Ok. If that is your argument, then I'm willing to hear your evidence. It's hard to find good evidence for anything other than dynastic kings in any kind of record that goes back to 1500-1200 BC. So the evidence that has been brought forth by the oral and written accounts of the Jews is as good as anything else with regards to evidence. If you're protesting the lack of film-strip movie of Moses, then you're clearly setting your standards of evidence at a level simply inconsistent with any evidence from the time period. I guess Sarah, Deborah, Ruth, Ester, Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary and Martha, Dorcus, Tabitha, and Priscilla didn't get the memo that they were not important to God. Nowhere does it say women are not allowed opinions and are simply merely possessions of men. The bible does not support murder. I've read the Book many times. You clearly missed my point about "immoral louts" - if that argument is nonsense, then so it your about "fear of death and life". You don't get to have your cake and eat it to. Again, no one has pushed anything on you. Tell me right now who made you click on the link to this thread? Who pried your eyes open and burned you with hot pokers until you read what was here? Of course disagreement is allowed. How is it not?? You are free to disagree about anything and everything. Surely you're not going to make a case that you are not free to disagree? When and where have you been coerced? Please respond with specific examples. Damnation only exists as people choose not to accept God's love and Christ's sacrifice. It's a legal issue - God must be 100% just, and he is and can be while at the same time saving anyone who wants to be saved, but the choice is up to the individual to make and accept. We know this and the mind of God, as much as He has revealed himself, because He gave us His word. I don't speak about the mind of God anymore than has been revealed. At the end of the day, I can't really argue with a bigot on this issue. It's a big waste of time. You're a reasonable guy just about anywhere else, but you've got a lot of anger about all of this for reason that are not clear to me. You are mad someone, but it's not me, nor anyone else here, not really. That much is obvious. |
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tat3225 02-Apr-13, 11:51 |
Prog Genesis 3.16 (The Lord says) To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Ephesians 5.22-24 22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. I Corinthians 11.3 3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. I Corinthians 14.34-35 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. Colossians 3.18-19 18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them. I Timothy 2.11-13 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Titus 2.4-5 4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. I Peter 3.1 1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives Proverbs 12.4 4 An excellent wife is the crown of her husband, But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones. Proverbs 31.10-15 10 Who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies. 11 The heart of her husband safely trusts her; So he will have no lack of gain. 12 She does him good and not evil All the days of her life. 13 She seeks wool and flax, And willingly works with her hands. 14 She is like the merchant ships, She brings her food from afar. 15 She also rises while it is yet night, And provides food for her household, And a portion for her maidservants <<<"The bible does not support murder. I've read the Book many times.">>> There isn't enough room here for all of the verses that stipulate death as punishment and for all of the verses involving the Lord killing someone. |
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tat And we have death penalties in this country for breaking laws. When the state puts to death a criminal it's not murder. The Bible does not support murder. I mean it's like amateur hour up in here all of a sudden. |
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dmaestro 02-Apr-13, 16:12 |
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DM |
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God's word is pure I for one am very glad that God's word are or such high "quality". I have for several years now dedicated myself to staking all on the trustworthiness of His words. |
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changeling 02-Apr-13, 19:07 |
Not mad at any individual JD (you are reading too much into my posts, they are not personal as such), this is a discussion group. I do not believe in any god, nor do I condone any organised religion that does not advocate equality for all. Even I as an atheist am entitled to my own opinion and beliefs. I do not attempt to convert or preach a way of life to anyone. I do not insist that 'my god' loves anyone or can torment anyone or send anyone to hell for not believing in him. The problem you cannot see is as clear as daylight in the post above by inhisservice, he obviously believes in the 'inherent word of god'. That type of thinking is where bigotry starts. I rest my case. |
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God loves You the question: How do we know God is a male is answered in God loves you ll. When God said, "let us create man in our own image" He was speaking as His Royal self. As also His Son, who was there with Him. When God created man, and created woman from the body of man. They were equal. As He spoke in verses 18,23,24 18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. They did not become unequal until eve touched that tree. Faith is superior to religion. The two are not the same. We can not worship and please God through religion as history plainly has shown. You can only worship and please God through faith. That faith must be through Jesus Christ. Yes religion has gotten it twisted, when it mixes doctrine and man made rules with Faith. Jesus Christ said it would happen and so it has. |
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God loves You 2 |
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God loves You 2 Should you feel threatened, offended, scared or fear damnation? Well yes, you should. Not from anything any of us says. But through The Bible, The Word Of God. It clearly speaks of what is going to happen to unbelievers and those that hate God. Yes you can contradict, belittle, and ignore what The Bible says. But you do so at your own peril. |
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God loves You 2 Matthew 4:4 King James Version (KJV) 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. |
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God loves You 2 |
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God loves You 2 |
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changeling 03-Apr-13, 06:16 |
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dmaestro 03-Apr-13, 11:29 |
Blindfaith There are well known lists of conflicting language in the Bible. Human affairs are subject to error. God does not miraculously produce books; humans do, with varied levels of insoiration and subsequent fidelity and assessment. What we have today as the Bible is meant for inspiration and spiritual discernment. It is Spirit that reveals the "word". The insistence that every word in the Bible be literally true and interpreted the way you see it, a dogma that is actually relatively recent in historic terms, requires everyone turning away from the discernment that is your birthright. This approach actually turns many from the living God which is Spirit. What Jesus demonstrated over and over when confronted with the literalists of his day is the living spiritual wisdom that others marveled at. Similarly the greatest of the Saints such as St Francis, St Teresa, et al and Mystics such as Meister Eckhart, et al, demonstrated superior wisdom. Honestly, the same cannot be said for those preaching your dogma today. You claim infusion with the Holy Spirit and but lack the signs Jesus referred to, and the willingness to see that. If you all were to meet the Samaritan women at the well, you would get hung up on which mountain is holy based on scripture, so to speak. In answer to you, I submit the "word" Jesus refers to comes from Spirit and not from a book, even the Bible. I submit that God understands humans far better than we do ourselves and grace extends far beyond the words in the Bible. I submit God loves all, but far more than your dogma will allow you to see now. To quote St Augustine, "the finest thing we can say of God is to be silent concerning him from the wisdom of inner riches." Spiritual Truth is ineffable. |
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DM |
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dmaestro Can you, please, tell me more about this "discernment which is your birthright"? Could it have anything to do with what is required to be a disciple of Jesus. As in "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me" (Matthew 16:24) if so it's dogma which has been since the beginning of Jesus teachings, not recent at all. Our flesh does naturally turn away from not having our own way. Our flesh naturally desires to have it our way. And, yes, we naturally turn away from the Spirit of God which would put such a demand on us if we are to go it His way. And can you, please, tell me who were these "literalists" which Jesus had to "confront"? I am not aware that there were any who lived as God would want them to who Jesus had a problem with. See, I believe God literally says what He means and desires us to literally take Him at his Word. Are you suggesting that those who "display superior wisdom" somehow are able to get around obeying God's direct commands? |
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dmaestro 04-Apr-13, 14:21 |
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Let him who has ears to hear, hear As for the issues of “inconsistencies” which you allude to as “evidence(d) by human failings” these I will assert have more to do with humans tendencies to halfhearted allegiance. James says they are double minded. “But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive from the Lord, he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.” (James 1:6-8) Yes, definitely we need “discernment” and we need “understanding”. However, without God's help that will be impossible! “For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? EVEN SO NO ONE KNOWS THE THINGS OF GOD EXCEPT THE SPIRIT OF GOD. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, THAT WE MAY KNOW THE THINGS FREELY GIVEN TO US BY GOD. These things we also speak, NOT IN WORDS WHICH MAN'S WISDOM TEACHES, BUT WHICH THE HOLY SPIRIT TEACHES, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. BUT THE NATURAL MANS RECEIVES NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD, for they are foolishness to him; NOR CAN HE KNOW THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUAL.” (emphasis mine - 1 Corinthians 2:12-14) |
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21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. Mark 4:21-23 16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. 17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. 18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. Luke 8:16-18 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing. John 18:20 So what secrets are you talking about? More followed? That is not what The Word says, is it? But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6: 64-69 Is it not the same today? As long as there is a message that some like, they follow Christ. The minute, they hear a hard message, than they are offended. Those that are offended no longer follow Christ. Yes Jesus wanted the Disciples to rely on The Holy Spirit. Does it not mean that we should rely on The Holy Spirit, today? That every part of a Believers life today, is guided by the Holy Spirit? |
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