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From	Message
caveman1960 03-Mar-13, 13:04	Dutch Defence I see.Reinforcing d5 and e6 ?
brigadecommander 03-Mar-13, 13:06	correct i see no alternative. But stal often surprises, so we shall see.
charleshiggie 03-Mar-13, 13:25	I can see merit in Kh8, but I can see merit in Kh8, but I also quite like the look of h6 kicking the knight. Presumably it drops back to f3 and then Black has Bd6 contesting e5. 11..... Nc7 doesn't seem to meet the threat of 12. e4
ptitroque 03-Mar-13, 15:52	11. ... Nc7 11. ... Nc7 prevents the most immediate threat : 12. Ne6 (fork attack between R and Q) Bxe3 13. Qxb2 with menace on the knight in a6. But another move could be b2 (preventing the same menace and advancing a pawn on the Q side.
stalhandske 03-Mar-13, 22:58	Thank you for many good suggestions and comments! 11. ....Nc7 not only prevents the threat indicated by ptitroque, but would also be a follow-up of blacks plan developing this knight, eventually to participate in a forthcoming kingside attack typical for the Dutch opening. For the general reader, please note that ptitroque means Bxe6 (not Bxe3) and 3. Qxb7 (not Qxb2). 11....Kh8 is also very good, taking the king out of the immediate reach of white's queen, and thus returning the "capture power" to the d5 pawn (as discussed above). 11....h6 is sound, but in my view it may be unnecessary, because I think white will retreat with the g5 knight to f3 pretty soon anywa, as it has little or no function at g5. Finally, I am also seriously considering 11....Bd6 and 11.....Qd7.
stalhandske 04-Mar-13, 00:17	I'll disappoint you all ...and move 11....Bd6. Mostly because then I won't favour anyone of your suggestions   As a matter of fact, I don't think there is a very significant difference in strength between the moves mentioned, and indeed 11.....Re8, too. Except that Bd6 fits best to my current plan.
caveman1960 04-Mar-13, 00:38	Dutch Defence 11....Bd6. Would that mean that 9...Be7 may have been an innaccurate move losing a tempo or have I missed the reason why 9...Bd6 should nt have been played?
stalhandske 04-Mar-13, 01:57	@caveman1960 I think that is an accurate interpretation, provided of course that 11...Bd6 *is* a good move
brigadecommander 04-Mar-13, 06:33	Black moves 11...Bd6. White 12.Bf4 1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. c4 Bb4+ 5. Nc3 O-O 6. Nh3 d5 7. cxd5 exd5 8. O-O c6 9. Qb3 Be7 10. Ng5 Na6 11. Rd1 Bd6 12. Bf4
stalhandske 04-Mar-13, 07:02	12. Bf4 Whether this is white's best move or not may be debated. I think 12. Nf3 is good, too. At any rate, I had anticipated 12. Bf4. Now, with 12.....Bxf4 black eliminates white's DSB, which - I think - strengthens black's attack plan. Simultaneously, this causes a glich in white's king position, a "hole" in the g file plus a "double pawn" on the f file, because white has to take with 12...gxf4. However, black is certainly not ready to attack yet - far from it - actually I think the positions are pretty well balanced.
brigadecommander 04-Mar-13, 07:15	i too anticipated 12...Bxf4 but in my eyes after 13.gxf4 white has a lock on e5. Where is black can be ejected from e4 by f3. And if so desired she can deploy Rooks to g1 easier then black can, and with greater effect, because white has no pawn to block the file like the one on g7. Double pawns are often an asset. And f4 can be easily supported by e3. So now we come to the crux. It looks like both Generals like they're dispositions on this Battlefield. Only one will survive.
brigadecommander 04-Mar-13, 07:22	black plays 12...Bxf4 and white moves 13.gxf4 1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. c4 Bb4+ 5. Nc3 O-O 6. Nh3 d5 7. cxd5 exd5 8. O-O c6 9. Qb3 Be7 10. Ng5 Na6 11. Rd1 Bd6 12. Bf4 Bxf4 13. gxf4
charleshiggie 04-Mar-13, 08:49	What was ptitroque talking about? 12. Ne6 was not a threat as after Bxe6 13. Qxb7 Black has Nc7
stalhandske 04-Mar-13, 10:41	@charleshiggie I should not speak for ptitroque, but I think he did include 12....Bxe6 (although he called it xe3), and 13. Qxb7 (he called it xb2), and then commented to the effect that black's knight at a6 was in danger. As you point out, this is mistaken. Apart from 13....Nc7 that you suggest, 13....Nb4 is even stronger, I think. At any rate, all these lines (starting from 12. Ne6) lead to loss of a piece (and the game) for white.
stalhandske 04-Mar-13, 10:44	I hasten to add... that I very much appreciate ptitroque's comments, and I hope that he won't become quiet when criticised
brigadecommander 04-Mar-13, 10:52	both charles and ptitroque and others have made great comments. It is only by working together that we can unravel the mysteries of Chess to the benefit of us all.
stalhandske 04-Mar-13, 11:04	the position brigadecommander's analysis (above) is a very accurate counter to my rough (and partial) analysis! What do you expect from a simple warrior of the 17th century (see www.kansallisbiografia.fi), who was moreover accused of "using too much wine"?   More seriously, brigadecommander is correct in that (i) an open file "goes both ways" and that the g file in our case is actually more easily "taken over" by white, and that (ii) doubled pawns are quite often an asset rather than a drawback. Having said all that, I am still quite proud of black's position after 13. gxf4 (despite the inaccuracies pointed out earlier by our able colleagues charleshiggie and caveman1960) The big question now is WHAT TO DO for move 13!
stalhandske 04-Mar-13, 11:38	well.... no help from anywhere   I think black should keep to his original plan and take his other knight to a more useful position
brigadecommander 04-Mar-13, 12:17	Black plays 13...Nc7 and White moves 14.Nf3 1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. c4 Bb4+ 5. Nc3 O-O 6. Nh3 d5 7. cxd5 exd5 8. O-O c6 9. Qb3 Be7 10. Ng5 Na6 11. Rd1 Bd6 12. Bf4 Bxf4 13. gxf4 Nc7 14. Nf3
caveman1960 04-Mar-13, 14:26	Dutch Defence The curse of working in a different time zone.The position has moved on quite a bit since I was last online.It looks to me like whites position is easier to play and I,m still concerned about blacks hole on e5.Or am i unnecessarily paranoid?
stalhandske 04-Mar-13, 22:31	@caveman1960 Well, if that is paranoia, I am sharing it!   It must be kept in mind that this is the likely position where white's knight is heading, and it is strong!
caveman1960 05-Mar-13, 02:49	Dutch Defence Is there a better move then 14.....Ne6?
stalhandske 05-Mar-13, 02:57	well in my humble opinion it is the one I made, viz. Ne4   Look, in my view all depends on "what you have in mind" (i.e. your PLAN!). Of course, as long as you don't really blunder!
caveman1960 05-Mar-13, 03:12	Dutch Defence 14......Ne4 is definitely better.A proactive move instead of one that has purely defence in mind.
brigadecommander 05-Mar-13, 07:15	black plays 14...Ne4 Black,15.e3 1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. c4 Bb4+ 5. Nc3 O-O 6. Nh3 d5 7. cxd5 exd5 8. O-O c6 9. Qb3 Be7 10. Ng5 Na6 11. Rd1 Bd6 12. Bf4 Bxf4 13. gxf4 Nc7 14. Nf3 Ne4 15. e3
stalhandske 05-Mar-13, 08:04	actually.... 14....Ne4 may look like an attack. In a way it is, but only indirectly. It's main reason is to make room for black's next move 15.....Rf6. The knight itself (now at e4) is destined back to d6, and then perhaps to f7 to attack the future white knight at that magic square e5 discussed above. Quite a horse show
elyhim 05-Mar-13, 09:32	7 point analysis @ move 15 black to play 1. Material equality- neither side has a material advantage. 2. Presence of direct threats: neither side as of yet is threatening to win material or gain a decisive advantage. 3. Both kings are relatively safe and equally exposed. The white king is exposed along the g-file while the black king is exposed on the a2-g8 diagonal. However, neither side is at the point where they can take advantage of this weakness. 4. Possession of open lines: All files and diagonals are currently closed. However, white may want to seek to open the light square diagonals to take full advantage of his light square dominance. While black may wish to increase his space superiority on the king side. 5. Pawn Structure, Strong points and weak points: Black's pawn structure is clearly superior to whites. White has a three pawn islands while black has one chain. White has the the e5 strong point to counter the e4. As for weak points Black's most noticeable is the f7 square and for white g4 is problematic. 6. Centre and Space: Black has marginal superior control of the center and has a marginal space advantage. At present white's pieces are mostly working in defensive roles. 7. Piece position and development: White has two adequatly developed knights, a centralized rook and a LSB aimming at the center. Compared to white Black's pieces are seriously underdeveloped and lack influence in the center. Conclusion: Black should avoid exchanges that open lanes and take advantage of the time afforded to him by the static center. Black should continue to build up on the kingside and develop his piece to get in range of the g-file. One solid plan is to start with playing ...Ne6 centralizing the knight. This knight can then embark on the famous dutch tour via ...Ne6->...Nd8->...Nf7 where it is in good position to support rapid king side attack. Also available to black is developing his queen to h4 to put strong pressure on f2 with the support of the knigth on e4. Black would also love to find time to play ...Rf6. In summary, the position is roughly equally though black is clearly in the driver seat for now.
stalhandske 05-Mar-13, 09:35	this is really valuable! My sincere thanks to elyhim for this analysis, which significantly increases the teaching value of this effort!
stalhandske 05-Mar-13, 09:39	...and black had already moved ....Rf6 which elyhim had missed (because it was not yet annotated)
elyhim 05-Mar-13, 10:21	I did not miss the idea of ...Rf6 in my analysis. What I did not like about ...Rf6 was that it blocked the possibility of ...Qh4 and ...g5. So I choose 15. ...Ne6 16. Ne5 Qh4! 17.Qc2 Rf6 as being very good for black. Also 15....Ne6 16.Rac1 and I think black can play 16....g5!? with very good prospects for black.
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