|
|
| ||||||||
| From | Message | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
kingofpawns 26-Dec-06, 15:42 |
 The Nature of God1. "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. 2. "Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..." 3. "Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..." 4. "Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy" 5. "Honor your father and your mother..." 6. "Do not kill" 7. "Do not commit adultery." 8. "Do not steal." 9. "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor" 10. "Do not covet your neighbor's house..." Moreover, those who follow these commandments will live in eternal happiness and those who do not will live in eternal hell. Can we determine from this whether this is a good or evil god? Well, And evil god, would certainly want to have commandment #1 through #3. An evil god would only want you to follow him or her. An evil god, would be narcissistic and would certainly want you to celebrate his or her creation. So, commandments #1 to #4 are certainly commandments an evil god would make. It is not clear why a good god would make them. Now, let's consider the rest. An evil god could certainly make #5. An evil god would thrive on human suffering, but this is not possible if humans do not reproduce. Not honoring your father and mother might make them produce less or not even reporduce. Or perhaps it would lead to offspring killing their parents, which would lead to less people that could suffer from starvation or wars. So, and evil god would propose #5. #6 is tricky. Do not kill would seem to be a commandment that only a good god would propose. However, notice that #6 is never interpreted as do not kill under any circumstances. Wars are taken as a good reason to kill or executing people. Now, if people were inclinded to kill each other on sight, then humans would soon be gone and so would human suffering. So, an evil god wants killing, but not too much killing. Thus, an ambiguous #6 is just what an evil god would make. #7 is again tricky. However, it is just what an evil god would do if he/she gave humans the desire to commit adultery. The commandment makes it highly taboo, so when people do it and get caught it can lead to murder and a lot of suffering. #8 to #10 are tricky in exactly the same way. Make them taboo, but if he gave people the desire to do them, this would just increase the suffering that would result. Therefore, how do you know whether these commandments come from a good or evil god? |
|||||||
|
kop |
|||||||
|
kop |
|||||||
|
kingofpawns 26-Dec-06, 21:00 |
Hey... subset. My point is simply that if you believe in a god, how do you know this god is a good god? It can't simply be that the god says he or she is good, because and evil god would lie. Now, do generally agree that sufering is bad, so any god that would put people into hell (eternal suffering), for not believing in him or her? Even a person who murders another, do they deserve eternal sufering and torture? Would a good god command people to believe in him or her? Would a good god need such commandments? |
|||||||
|
saintinsanity 27-Dec-06, 02:57 |
If there was a God Any good God would make #1-3. He wouldn't want us out there worshipping evil Gods. #4 would certainly be made by a kind and loving God. He knows how hard life is, and everyone needs a break. You should be happy! Humans are so lazy they doubled the sabbath and now we have weekends! Yay! #5 makes a lot of sense, from a good God point of view. Especially in the old days when families stayed together. It was good for everyone. Look at things now: no one honors their parents every anymore at all. They leave home at 18 and don't look back. If the parents are lucky, they will get stuck in a nursing home rather than being homeless on the street. There is also an unspoken commandment here: honor your children. We probably messed that one up too. #6, 7, and 8, I'm really surprised you are trying to argue. If adultery causes so much suffering, surely God wants us to avoid that. Stealing only leads to getting your hands cut off, and not killing should go with out saying. #9 is a good God idea too. Lying just leads to trouble. #10 Well, God wants us to be happy with what we have. To me, the ten commandments don't say as much about God as it does about us. |
|||||||
|
tugger 27-Dec-06, 03:35 |
the bible says that the devil will fool the world into worshipping him instead of god... who's to say he hasn't succeeded...? just because those who believe have good intentions, does not mean that what they are doing is good... sure, if i were god, i wouldn't want people thinking pawnt was really god and worshipping him instead, but i wouldn't threaten everyone with eternal damnation should they fall under his wicked spell... i'd just mock them when i let them into heaven... there would be a 'gullible step' where i'd make those people sit for a day in heavenly public... anyway, i think those who believe in themselves and genuine good intentions, regardless of what we are told to do, are those who are closest to god... forget being nice to your neighbour and all that, just don't be nasty and get on with your life... |
|||||||
|
This is actually a pretty silly thread IMHO. Pretending to know the mind and motivations of God outside of any sort of devine revelation is nothing more than putting your "stuff" into the equation. Taken in isolation with your own - so very human - motivations imposed on top, I can see the thought experiment. And perhaps one could actually come to the conclusion that we do not know if a good or evil made those commands, but there is no way you can, in isolation come to conclusion that it was an evil god based solely ont he commands. The good news is that we have a whole entire book giving the revelation of God to the world. The Gospel of God is clear that He is a good and loving God. Place these commands within the proper context and there is no argument and the entire "through experiment" becomes pretty juevenile. |
|||||||
|
kingofpawns 27-Dec-06, 11:15 |
Leviticus 20 [8] And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you. [9] For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. **That seems like something a loving god would command. If you kids cuss at you, kill 'em** [10] And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. **Again, a very loving thing to do, even to your neighbours** [11] And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. **I think that someone who sleeps with his mom has got some problems, but is killing them the solution?*** [12] And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them. **Are they to be killed for being together or for causing confusion?** [13] If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. **This is a loving god's treatment of gay people** [14] And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. **I guess threesomes with your mother in law are really bad, but who would want to anyway???*** [15] And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. **watch out sheep lovers** [16] And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. **I guess humans must have liked to lie with beasts. Was this part of god's design?** [17] And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity. **whew they don't get killed just exiled.** [18] And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people. **The "sickness" refers to a woman menstruating. This sentence nicely illustrates that the Bible was written by ignorant, primative humans*** [19] And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity. **I know that is the last thing I would think of doing** [20] And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless. **I wonder why seeing your uncle's wife naked will make you childless?** [21] And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless. **Isn't this one moot? I think by #10, they would be killed first....OH, that would make them childless too!*** [22] Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. |
|||||||
|
within that type of society. |
|||||||
|
kingofpawns 27-Dec-06, 12:20 |
a society? |
|||||||
|
You are not God. I'm sorry He didn't take time to ask you . . . The crime of death was not unusual for many different types of civil crimes a few thousand years ago. Hell, 150 years ago they were still hanging horse thevies in the US. Sometimes in order to make sure the order of society is followed penalties need to be sever. God was merely dealing with the Israelites where they were at and that is a primitive people coming out of captivity in a pagan nation. ***What is it about menstruation that causes disorder in a society?*** The cautions against being contaminated with menstral blood are nothing more than a public health measure. Menstral blood is not "dirty" per se, but blood is a great culture medium for many different pathogens, also we know blood itself carries pathogens. When you live a time without the type of cleanliness we see today, much care need to be taken to prevent the spread of disease. |
|||||||
|
soulcrates 27-Dec-06, 14:38 |
KoP they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them. **Are they to be killed for being together or for causing confusion?** Have you any idea the repercussions from dysfunctional families? Here's a video that may enlighten you to the evils of such inbred families. video.google.com" target="_blank">-> video.google.com This just shows how succeptible they are to becoming evil, or at least capable of doing things that are considered wrong in almost every society. I do think it's safer to eliminate this at it's earliest manifestation. I'm not sure if you're condoning these actions of inappropriate sexual in-family relations, but if you can't see how they cause harm to the individuals involved, but also to their immediate society thru actions made that affect them. I think it's safe to say that if everyone ONLY was allowed to marry an immediate relative, we'd be in BIG trouble the next generation. |
|||||||
|
jd so...if this is really true, a. how do you know which biblical rules are to be abided by and which are just god's way of dealing with primitive societies? b. isn't this exactly substantiating my argument when i say that the bible was written for a sheep herding society thousands of years ago, and there is a silly document as a guide in today's world? |
|||||||
|
jeff primitive societies?*** I could go into the exegesis, but I'm not convinced you'd be interested. So, if you're interested in a more detailed explaination of the text I'll give that to you, but if you'll allow, I'll tell you simply. "Law" is bit of an amorphous term, because there is more than a certain amount of nuance invlved with the original language, especially with the word translated "testimony". The old testament in numorous places mentioned the law ad the testimony. The testimony always refered to the 10 Commanments, which were placed inside of the Ark, holding a special place, whereas the "law" - the civil law - was placed outside the Ark alongside. You find the same theme of those keeping the "testimony" of Jesus Crist as those who represent the remnant at the end of time. This is strong testimony - no pun intended (ok, maybe a little) - that the 10 commandments are still "alive and well". Following up this point are the Gospels and the Epistles of the NT. Christ spent much of His time dealing with the "law" and the Jews abuse of he concept. Furthermore, Paul talks extensively about the law and that Christians are no longer required to keep all the old laws - remember we are not talking about the 10 commandment testimony. ***b. isn't this exactly substantiating my argument when i say that the bible was written for a sheep herding society thousands of years ago, and there is a silly document as a guide in today's world? *** Part of the Bible was written for some primitive folk leaving a pagan society, but no, that does not substantiate your argument. The Bible exists for all men. |
|||||||
|
kingofpawns 27-Dec-06, 21:30 |
jdh71... [7] Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God. [8] And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you. This seems pretty clear as to intent. These are laws to be followed. It seems to me that to say "God was merely dealing with primitive humans where they were. His civil law was given to keep order within that type of society" you must have special knowledge. Does god talk to you? Do you hear voices? |
|||||||
|
kingofpawns 27-Dec-06, 21:32 |
Soul... killed for it. |
|||||||
|
KOP His civil law was given to keep order within that type of society" you must have special knowledge. Does god talk to you? Do you hear voices?*** I love it when the atheists try and tell me what the Bible says. You understand nothing. Paul clearly discusses the realtion of the OT civil laws as they relate to the believer. Christ himself spoke extensively about the law, and the Jew's abuse and error. These laws no longer apply. Try reading the rest of the Book? The notion that the civils laws of the Hebrews were in place to keep order is nothing more than common sense (something sorely lacking these days) not devine revelation |
|||||||
|
qiwi 28-Dec-06, 00:13 |
It is great that we have an authority right here on this forum who knows exactly what these commandments mean.... However, since we dont choose our parents, I wont be feeling too guilty about the fact that my great-grandmother was Jewish.... how's about you Jeff?? |
|||||||
|
qiwi |
|||||||
|
theloneranger 28-Dec-06, 03:49 |
Deleted by theloneranger on 31-Dec-06, 23:56.
|
|||||||
|
saintinsanity 28-Dec-06, 04:29 |
Indeed, TLR In the meantime, go easy on the Christians. Not everyone must follow the same path as you. Of course it goes without saying that christians should go easy on you. The word of God as found in the Bible is a very old document. It doesn't always apply to us in this day and age. Some very basic tenets still apply to everyone, no matter what. But the Bible itself is outdated. Therefore, seek ye the truth, wherever it may be found. Look to your heart and you will know the truth. Only, look to your ego and see that you cannot be perfect according to the law written on your heart. Otherwise, you wouldn't care about the issue at all. |
|||||||
|
ranger please clarify. are you saying it is only intent that is important, not action? if i interpret this correctly, any religion (or no religion) is equally good as a means to find god...as long as it is backed by good intent. |
|||||||
|
kingofpawns 28-Dec-06, 08:43 |
discusses the realtion of the OT civil laws as they relate to the believer. Christ himself spoke extensively about the law, and the Jew's abuse and error. These laws no longer apply. Try reading the rest of the Book?*** There is not such discussion in the Bible regarding Leviticus 20. This is a typical religious response. If there is a contradiction in what I believe, make something up. Of course, when there are such deep inconsistencies, when you make one thing up, you have to give up another such as the literal truth of the Bible. |
|||||||
|
kingofpawns 28-Dec-06, 08:46 |
it goes without saying that christians should go easy on you.*** It is interesting that they have no problem making up strawmen and "facts" against science, but get extremely defensive about discussing what is written in their own religion. |
|||||||
|
KOP If there is a contradiction in what I believe, make something up. Of course, when there are such deep inconsistencies, when you make one thing up, you have to give up another such as the literal truth of the Bible.*** You know nothing. Paul is quite clear that the works of the law are dead to the believer in Jesus Christ. There is no salvation in the Levitical Law and nor any moral imperitive to follow. Nothing is made up. It is all in the Bible, and discussed - if you like, I'll give you verses, but you atheist types get your dandur up when someone quotes text. The Levital Law was for the Children of Israel for a time - no longer. Simple. No contradiction. You only make yourself look like a further silly and ignorant arse by persuing this line of argument - there may be some really legitimate thoughts of argument about God, but you're down the wrong rabbit trail. |
|||||||
|
kingofpawns 28-Dec-06, 09:56 |
jdh71... |
|||||||
|
theloneranger 28-Dec-06, 10:07 |
Deleted by theloneranger on 31-Dec-06, 23:56.
|
|||||||
|
theloneranger 28-Dec-06, 10:14 |
Deleted by theloneranger on 31-Dec-06, 23:56.
|
|||||||
|
KOP "14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romns 6:14 "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any" 1 Cor 6:12 "10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal 3:10-11 "23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Gal 3:23-24 "18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." Gal 5:18 "11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Hebrews 7:11-12 Do you need a more thorough exegesis? Are you willing to retract your silly and ignorant statement? |
|||||||
|
kingofpawns 28-Dec-06, 10:46 |
jdh71... existence of all mythical beings. Now, you and the loneranger should know how to interpret these passages. Romans 7 actually explains it the best and most clearly. If one accepts the spirit of god, then sin is gone from you and there is no need for law, because you will do only what is good. But, for those who do not accept Jesus, they are bound by the law. Moreover, anyone who violates the law, cannot have the spirit in them so they are bound by the law. You can read the relevant sentences below. Rom.7 [1]Do you not know, brethren -- for I am speaking to those who know the law -- that the law is binding on a person only during his life? [2] Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies she is discharged from the law concerning the husband. [3] Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. [4]Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. [5] While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. [6] But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. [7]What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." [8] But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law sin lies dead. [9] I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died; [10] the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me. [11] For sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and by it killed me. [12] So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good. [13]Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. [14] We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. [15] I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. [16] Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. [17] So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. [18] For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. [19] For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. [20] Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. [21] So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. [22] For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, [23] but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. [24] Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [25] Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. |
|||||||
| ||||||||
