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theloneranger 26-Dec-06, 16:01 |
 Deleted by theloneranger on 31-Dec-06, 23:49.
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ranger what if my honesty appears to you do be a worn out ridiculous attack? |
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theloneranger 26-Dec-06, 16:38 |
Deleted by theloneranger on 31-Dec-06, 23:49.
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kingofpawns 26-Dec-06, 20:00 |
loneranger... because if they did not, then you would not know the TRUTH. The TRUTH is you evolved like the rest of us and you will rot like the rest of us when you die. You may tell yourself you know the TRUTH, but down deep inside you doubt. |
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ranger |
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qiwi 26-Dec-06, 20:18 |
there will be great awakening; small doubt, small awakening, no doubt, no awakening.' ZEN SAYING....... |
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kingofpawns 26-Dec-06, 20:41 |
qiwi... |
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TLR How can God (no matter who he be, or which religion he represents, allow suffering and death? He appearantly has the ability to allow us to live pain free and forever here on Earth. It seems strange that we have to die to get everlasting life. Also, why is it that entire cultures that don't know or understand the Christan God would be condemed to Hell? I'm sure there are good answers to those, but I don't know them. |
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saintinsanity 27-Dec-06, 02:48 |
Qiwi theloneranger, you might have trouble keeping the rabble rousers out of a christian thread in a free speech club. softaire, God allows you to suffer because you are a prideful and sinful creature who can only learn how corrupt your soul is by attempting to live according to your relative morals. Once you realize you can't do good on your own, then you can put your faith in God, and he might help you out if you repent and are sincere. Heh heh. Also, entire cultures don't go to hell. |
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soulcrates 27-Dec-06, 03:13 |
Also, entire cultures don't go to hell. |
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tugger 27-Dec-06, 03:51 |
TLR i will be honest and sincere with you... this snip from your original post is exactly the reason why i have a problem with religion... you are closing the door to not only discussion about the possibility of you being wrong and there being no god at all, but you are also slamming the door in the face of those who believe in other gods... this whole "i'm right, you're wrong" attitude is what causes wars... my question to you is, how can you be sure you know the truth? how can you convince me i don't? and, hardest of all, how can you be sure abdullah mohammed mohammed ahmed from iran is wrong, or punjab singh from india, or tom cruise from america? do you really think that christians are right, everyone else is wrong? how can you say this with certainty? i suspect the truth you speak of is the comfort you get from your belief, or knowledge, however you wish to look at it, that you shall live beside the lord in heaven when you die... there is nothing wrong with this, it makes death easier to deal with, and you might actually be right... but i find it staggering that you can so easily say that everyone else is wrong... |
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theloneranger 27-Dec-06, 04:23 |
Deleted by theloneranger on 31-Dec-06, 23:50.
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theloneranger 27-Dec-06, 04:47 |
Deleted by theloneranger on 31-Dec-06, 23:50.
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tugger 27-Dec-06, 05:54 |
TLR i do, however, find it encouraging that you believe in god without the need to subscribe to religion... i would like to clarify that i have no problem whatsoever with people who believe in god in any form, it is religion that i have issues with... you are right, it is a set of rules made by man, not god, to control those who subscribe to it, or those unlucky enough to be forced to adhere to it... i myself do not believe in god, at least not a conscious one... i would be happy to call nature god, that's fine by me, but i do not believe nature makes a conscious desision to make life as it is... of course, life is not entirely random, either... we are not as we are by chance... we are as we are because it is most suitable for our surroundings... but then other crucial apsects of life are caused by chance... our planet supports life due to the matter that formed the planet and the warmth we get from the sun... our sun exists because a huge cloud of gas heated up beyond a critical point due to friction caused by its own gravity... our universe exists because a huge black hole reched a critical point and exploded (maybe)... so there's where the question comes in for me... to me, the only place where "god" as a conscious being can fit into the equation is the origin of the universe... but there are other logical explanations for that too... ones that can explain everything that "god" can... i accept god as a possibility, but nothing more... |
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theloneranger 27-Dec-06, 09:06 |
Deleted by theloneranger on 27-Dec-06, 09:09.
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theloneranger 27-Dec-06, 09:09 |
Deleted by theloneranger on 31-Dec-06, 23:50.
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softaire appearantly has the ability to allow us to live pain free and forever here on Earth. It seems strange that we have to die to get everlasting life*** Free will - pure and simple. God allows every human being the freedom to choose as they please. Every choice in life has a consequence. These consequences ripple throughout the universe in ways we do not even understand. Cause and effect. The physical sciences are very clear that every cause will have an effect and every effect can be a cause itself to another effect. Can beating of the wings of a butterfly in China have any effect on a tornado in Kansas? Every choice since the fall of man has rippled throughout relaity in unintended way. Bad things happen here because of free will and a state of fallen nature. A prefect nature is a nature where being have the freedom to make a choice against God. God is giving the creation time to decide one way or the other, and in the mean time while all everyone is making their ulimate decision because of our fallen natures choices for bad continue and ripple through. Once everyone has made up their mind, God will see fit to end this age. ***Also, why is it that entire cultures that don't know or understand the Christan God would be condemed to Hell?*** The Bible is clear that those who really and truely have no knowledge of Jesus Christ will be judged upon the law that resides within all of us. We all know right form wrong. Hell is reserved for those who ouright reject God and His Gospel and/or those who wantonly disreagrd the law in their hearts. Furthermore, Hell is not a place of eternal torment. Hell is an English name given to the process of destruction as described in Bible. Those who are not interested in God and His Gospel will have no interest in the Kingdom of God. Why would God take people to heaven who would only be miserable there? Hell merely rights the universe back to the way it was supposed to be taking those who freely chose to be with God home with God. It's nothing personal. |
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tugger 27-Dec-06, 10:26 |
tlr it comes out of my nature... i believe it is plausible that aliens built the pyramids in egypt... i will not slam the door on god, nor any theory, unless it is not plausible... then it just comes to how likely it is... or how you percieve god... perhaps when we die we move on to a collective conciousness of bliss... can this be god...? perhaps our good energy goes to bliss, and our bad to suffering... we are cleansed... this to me is a logical condition of heaven and hell... it's possible and as likely as any scientific possibilty i've heard... but god Himself...? a single great all powerful concious being who created all...? this i just cannot see as very likely... perhaps i am wrong... but i certainly do not think that my doubts are god calling... this is where i bleieve people just begin to find comfort in having an answer... i am perfectly happy to live my life without knowing why i am here... i am happy with my doubts... if someone proves it, then great, but it won't happen... i think we would agree that only one can prove it beyond any doubt, and that is god himself... if god exists, and if he loves me and wishes me to be in heaven, he will prove it to me when i die... if he is displeased due to my refusal to believe and sends me to hell, then he is not good, and was really the devil who convinced the world he was god... and if god doesn't exist, i shall join the collective consciousness, or reincarnate, or perhaps even die as a soul altogether, though i the latter incredibly unlikely... |
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ranger a question for you. please explain how your god is the christian god, when you do not abide by the religion of christianity. are you saying that you are a follower of christ and his teachings, but reject the christian church and its hierarchy, tenets, and rules? by the way, when i call myself an atheist, i am referencing the idea of god as an entity, a conscious individual entity. i am much more willing to 'admit' to a belief in god if one is willing to consider substantially unorthodox concepts of what god is. |
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qiwi 27-Dec-06, 23:36 |
My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?? Even Christ's final words are a bone of contention, although of all the passages in the New Testament, Mathew 27:46 is probably the least ambiguous of them all.... This is because the writer of the Mathew Gospel makes the point of including the original Aramaic version, (Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani?) which incidentally is the language Christ is assumed to have spoken, as well as the Greek translation to make sure the meaning is unequivocal.... Despite this many Biblical scholars, uncomfortable with this passage, have tried change the meaning, the most common rendering being 'My God, My God, For this I was kept".. The trouble with this is that in Aramaic 'lama' or 'Lemana' always introduces a question.... for example in the Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament it occurs 53 times and it is translated as 'Why' 43 times, 'What' 5 times and 'For what purpose' 3 times..... |
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you are not open to the spiritual, you will be unable to see what is obvious. |
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qiwi 28-Dec-06, 00:24 |
No Doubt!! |
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qiwi Apostles. No hijacking. Nothing perverse or antisemitic. You are truely quite ignorant on this topic. |
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qiwi 28-Dec-06, 01:50 |
It is incomprehensible that a just 'god' would condemn innocent souls to a lifetime of purgatory for the most trivial transgressions while elevating a piece of filth like Saul to a position of authority in the early christian 'church'. |
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theloneranger 28-Dec-06, 03:50 |
Deleted by theloneranger on 31-Dec-06, 23:50.
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saintinsanity 28-Dec-06, 03:51 |
Forgive Saul I myself believe in the theory of Truth where It may Be found. For each of us, we must make up our own minds about this life. There are many ideas about it, and we all share our ideas. Most of them are really good. Some of them are a little closed off. But it doesn't matter because for each one of us, the only thing that really matters to us, in this life, is what we believe the truth to be. Now I enjoy taking the Christian faith as the premise for truth and discussing the nuances of belief that arise from such a premise. But I also enjoy speaking of God in a broader sense than even Christianity allows. For me, the truth is wider than Christianity. I believe Christians are correct, but I also feel they are limited by the particular aspects of their religion that conflict with other beliefs. For you, the truth may be different. But it doesn't matter, because we all believe something, and as long as that something is working in your life, I think it is very important that you believe in yourself, follow what is right for you as much as possible. There may be arguments about absolute truth, and making sure everyone accepts a benchmark bible from which we must measure the merit of our own truth, but I think this is less important to the world as it is to individuals and the measure of their own beliefs. Absolute truth does well exist, but it is quite impossible for any of us to know it. The real truth may be that God is here now, channelling this truth to you through me. But you would never know it, and even if you did you wouldn't believe it. The truth is a fickle thing. Anyhow, in this instance, taking the Christian God as the premise, I would love to talk about the nature of such a God. |
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soulcrates 28-Dec-06, 04:00 |
You can't solely blame Paul/Saul. |
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saintinsanity 28-Dec-06, 04:14 |
TLR I have found through experience that doing the little religion dance, accepting Christ, and going to church is not a cure to our dis ease. However, there is merit in admitting we need help. Still, we must find a place to cast our line of hope. Many reject Christianity and the Christian God as a place not worthy of seeking redemption. They may find justification for themselves. Very well. It is quite subjective. But, again, taking the Christian perspective, we see that God must love us. Why does God allow suffering? Certainly, it is because of free will, and the Fall. But it gets even better. God Loves us. So we must ask about Love. What is love? These days we tend to think of love as being nice to each other. Love for our fellow man is like possessing the virtue of kindness. And there are many different love metaphors, Artist for creation, Parent for offspring, Male and female love, brother and brother and friend...all these sorts of love. But when you look at love it is easy to slip into this idea that we should strive for the comfort and happiness of the other. If we love someone, we try to make them happy, we try to take away their suffering. God does not love us this way. God loves us, that we may become more fully what we were meant to be. He will not try and take away our suffering, if through our own actions we bring misery upon ourselves. He will abandon us in the pain, that we may realize the folly of our ways and turn to Him. We are rebel souls, determined to carve our own way in the hard cold world. We find ourselves here because of the Sin of Adam. Yet, that same sin we commit over and over. We are born in original sin, and we live on so. It is no use looking for justice: "It was Adam, not me!" We turn again and again away from God, because we know better how to live our own lives. And if we will not recognize this problem presented by christianity, if we will not accept this Catholic Guilt, and if we will not see the darkness in our own hearts, then it is useless to look to Christianity for the answer, because we have not even accepted the premise. |
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saintinsanity 28-Dec-06, 04:23 |
Soul Even though I am utterly alone right now, in this room, there is God. No matter. Peace is indeed imperative. But it is not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is the perfection of each one of us. Each one of our souls must go through the wringer. We must become more than we are, we must become more than we could ever become on our own. God is the only way to do that. Now, I don't mean to make the atheists feel bad. They, too, are trying to make themselves better, even though they are doing it from the other side of the argument. And that is fine. They can make themselves damned good. Damned good indeed. Perhaps that is the very best they can become. I know they make it further than many christians. But for me, I must move from the premise of God. I move from the premise of meaning rather than emptiness and loneliness. There are many arguments to make, and I hope that we make them all, that we may all come as close to the truth as possible, for us. |
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theloneranger 28-Dec-06, 04:50 |
Deleted by theloneranger on 28-Dec-06, 04:53.
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