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 KOPis constrained by His own definition. |
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oldguard heard in a long while. If you christians can except that kind of agony on the basis of some law I can understand how much death your lot have caused in history. Iraq becomes more understandable by the minute. Fundamentalist christians and muslims recognise each other because both are based on cruelty and a hatred of those outside the group. *** Jesus died to pay the just penalty of the broken law. He did this for love. He did not have to. If you would like to reject this, it is your perogative. The problem with man is not Christians or Muslims or religions it is man's fallen nature. What excuse did Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Ho Chi Min have for their attrocities - it wasn't God. |
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kingofpawns 31-Dec-06, 15:04 |
jdh71... change the world to fit whatever he says. |
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KOP Two accounts don't even mention being scourged, so it may not have been considered serious enough to mention, for surely all four accounts would mention scourging, if it had been as bad as you say.*** Look, I have thouroughly discredited your "plausible" explanation, and I am tired of this line of inanity. Believe what you want. Whatever will help you sleep better . . . |
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oldguard 31-Dec-06, 15:06 |
jdh71 What I find really scary is a man of such obviously high intelligence can fill his head with such nonesense, and I mean that kindly. |
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KOP change the world to fit whatever he says.*** To truely be 100% definitionally omnipotent God would be able to lie and not lie. He would be able to make a rock so heavy he couldnt lift it and then lift it. He would be able to tell you what it was like to swim in the color blue. It's all silly. God is able to do whatever is in his nature to do. He is constrained by His own nature. |
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kingofpawns 31-Dec-06, 15:08 |
jdh71... Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Ho Chi Min have for their attrocities - it wasn't God. """ God mad humans and their nature. If he made us, he is reponsible for the horrible people he created. What kind of a god stand by while millions are gassed to death? A purely evil god. |
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kingofpawns 31-Dec-06, 15:10 |
jdh71... Who created god's nature? |
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oldguard examples. What I find really scary is a man of such obviously high intelligence can fill his head with such nonesense, and I mean that kindly.*** The commie do not justify the awfulness of past Christians. The commies show the awfulness that resides in the heart of man and that religion is not the problem, man is the problem. Kindly? I have a logic and rationale for all of my positions and there is an internal consistency that has never been sufficiently challenged. You may disagree, but I do not believe "nonsense". |
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KOP he created. What kind of a god stand by while millions are gassed to death? A purely evil god. *** God made humans with perfect choice. When man chose against God, corruption came in and the evil has manifested itself in likely ways. Man is responsible for his current nature. We were not created this way. We live merely in the consequences of our actions. |
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KOP No one. God's nature is defined by his existence. |
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kingofpawns 31-Dec-06, 15:20 |
jdh71... If humans were made with perfect choice, how could they ever be mistaken? Every choice would be perfect. Perfect choices must also be bood choices. ** When man chose against God, corruption came in and the evil has manifested itself in likely ways. *** How could man choose against god? If humans were made with perfect choice, they could not choose wrongly but perfectly. **Man is responsible for his current nature.** Does this mean that human nature was not created by god? |
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oldguard 31-Dec-06, 15:20 |
jdh71 |
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kingofpawns 31-Dec-06, 15:24 |
jdh71... |
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kingofpawns 31-Dec-06, 15:28 |
oldguard... |
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KOP perfect freedom to make any choice. Perfect choice also includes the ability to chose against God. Humans can make this choice, be cause choice is completely free. If humans were incapable of making a choice against God choice would not be free nor perfect. God created us perfectly that is in complete harmony with himself while having the ability to make a choice against him. Our current human nature is nothing more than the natural consequence of a perfect human, using his perfect freewill choice to make a choice against God. |
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oldguard excel. They talk such bloody nonesense that there is no way into their arguements. *** Sounds a lot like sour grapes . . . |
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KOP God has the nature of God because he is God. |
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kingofpawns 31-Dec-06, 18:32 |
jdh71... has the logical structure 1. X is X because X is X 1. is logically true, indeed, in logic it is called a tautology. Tautologies are always true, but devoid of meaning. |
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kingofpawns 31-Dec-06, 18:52 |
perfect freedom to make any choice. Perfect choice also includes the ability to chose against God. Humans can make this choice, be cause choice is completely free. If humans were incapable of making a choice against God choice would not be free nor perfect. God created us perfectly that is in complete harmony with himself while having the ability to make a choice against him. Our current human nature is nothing more than the natural consequence of a perfect human, using his perfect freewill choice to make a choice against God.*** Ok, so you meant free choice and not perfect choice. *** Our current human nature is nothing more than the natural consequence of a perfect human*** A perfect human cannot be defective? correct? A perfect human makes choices for reasons? correct A perfect human has the power of free choice? correct? Having free choice does not mean making random or arbitrary choices? correct? How can a perfect human with free choice, that makes choices based on reasons choose evil? He is perfect, therefore it is not in his natrue to be evil, unless god created humans with and evil human nature. He had free choice, between good and evil, so he was not constrained to choose evil. His choice was not random because he make choices for reasons. Therefore, humans with a perfect nature would always may the good choice and not the evil choice even though they are free to choose evil, they would not because they have a perfect nature. It follows from this that if humans do not make good choices, they do not have a perfect nature. Thus, god created humans with less than a perfect nature. |
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KOP He is perfect, therefore it is not in his natrue to be evil, unless god created humans with and evil human nature. He had free choice, between good and evil, so he was not constrained to choose evil. His choice was not random because he make choices for reasons. Therefore, humans with a perfect nature would always may the good choice and not the evil choice even though they are free to choose evil, they would not because they have a perfect nature. It follows from this that if humans do not make good choices, they do not have a perfect nature. Thus, god created humans with less than a perfect nature.*** Interesting. What you are missing, and one chink in the armor of your argument is that what you are saying is that a perfect man cannot make an evil choice because he is perfect. If he has the inability to actually make the choice because of his perfection, then there is no *real* choice and he is an automaton. In this sense, the perfect human is the one that actually can make a choice for evil based on reason. In fact Eve made just such a choice in the story form Eden. "Ye shall be as Gods". She had her reasons - made her choices. If there are two theoretical options A or B, and A is always chosen because the system is set up in such a way that A will always be chosen, then B is not an option and doesn't even exist. Therefore, there is no real choice. This is fun. |
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kingofpawns 31-Dec-06, 19:30 |
jdh71... saying is that a perfect man cannot make an evil choice because he is perfect.*** No, I'm saying that a perfect man has the freedom to choose evil, but if his nature is perfect freely chooses to do good by nature. He could choose to do evil, be he does not because he believes it to be evil. He knows he could choose evil, but he does not want to choose evil because his nature allows him to see what are the good and bad choices. ***In this sense, the perfect human is the one that actually can make a choice for evil based on reason. In fact Eve made just such a choice in the story form Eden. "Ye shall be as Gods". She had her reasons - made her choices. *** So, Eve's nature must have been less than perfect otherwise she would have clearly reasoned that she was being fooled. ***If there are two theoretical options A or B, and A is always chosen because the system is set up in such a way that A will always be chosen, then B is not an option and doesn't even exist. Therefore, there is no real choice.*** A = $10 B = $100 I'll bet I choose A everytime, but that is only because I want $100. Although I never choose A, it is still a free choice. |
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KOP perfect freely chooses to do good by nature. He could choose to do evil, be he does not because he believes it to be evil. He knows he could choose evil, but he does not want to choose evil because his nature allows him to see what are the good and bad choices.*** My point still stands. In your scenario evil cannot be chosen as a practical matter and if it cannot be chosen because of the rules governing the system, there is no real choice. ***So, Eve's nature must have been less than perfect otherwise she would have clearly reasoned that she was being fooled.*** Eve had no kowledge of evil from which to base a rational decision before making the decision she did - there was no way she could know she was being fooled. Thus the name of the tree - the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. ***I'll bet I choose A everytime, but that is only because I want $100. Although I never choose A, it is still a free choice.*** I assume you meant "B" based on the way you set up the system. You are going to choose the $100 everytime over the $10. If the hundred is chosen every single time, then the situation is set up in such a way that you can argue a *technical* choice, but in reality there is no choice. The reality is what is important. You now have a situation where no *real* choice exists. Without real choice there is no choice. |
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kingofpawns 31-Dec-06, 22:45 |
jdh71... that person is no longer bound by law because he/she always makes the good choice. Does this mean that being in the spirit is to give up free will? If not, then I do not see how one cannot have free will, be fully aware that he/she has free will, but chooses the good because of his/her perfect nature. It we do not have a perfect nature and free will, then evil choices will occur. Therefore, humans do not have perfect natures. Exactly what you would expect from evolved creatures. |
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KOP that person is no longer bound by law because he/she always makes the good choice. Does this mean that being in the spirit is to give up free will?*** You are mistaken if you think that a person, now saved, and in the spirit, always makes the right choice. You can still make wrong choices. Man was created perfect with the capacity to make evil choices if he wanted to. You are saying that if man was really perfect he would never chose evil because of his perfection, and my point is, if the system is set up in such a way that the "perfection" of the system never allows a practical choice for evil, then there is no real choice and what God would have made was automaton of sorts. |
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kingofpawns 01-Jan-07, 09:39 |
jdh71... wanted to.*** You are simply wrong. There is no logical contradition between free choice on the one hand and having a perfect nature, which reveals the correct choices, which a rational being chooses. |
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KOP reveals the correct choices, which a rational being chooses.*** Look it is very simple. If the system is such that an evil choice never gets made because the "perfect" nature prevents the choice, then the system has built-in non-choice, and is therefore not really free. Freedom is not only the ability to chose to make a choice, but also the ability to carry out the choice. You have merely set up a system where evil cannot be chosen as a practical matter. |
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a_professional_idiot 01-Jan-07, 19:12 |
Deleted by a_professional_idiot on 17-Mar-23, 13:42.
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