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“It’s the blackest lie in history. Millions of dollars are being made by Jews telling this tale of woe and misfortune in books, movies, plays and TV.”
I agree. The blackest lie in history.
What gets me about this whole holocaust debate is that it is considered abhorrent for somebody to have an opinion on the matter that confilcts with the history books. Whatever happened to free speech? Is free speech only ok so long as it doesn't offend people? Erm, how does that work?
I think the history books lie. I'm not saying that people didn't die, I'm not saying terrible things didn't happen, but the reasons, causes, motivations, agendas, blame... all this has been blurred over the years. Just like 9/11, I have no idea what happend. I just happen to think that I'm being lied to. To think that saying that out aloud in some countries can get you jailed, well that's more disgusting than anything anyone can say.
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I believe that is only in Germany tugger! do you dispute the holocaust ever happened? Strike that, you are allowed to! A politician running for office in the US? That is questionable. I wonder who's votes he is after?
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he lost the primary back in march. he is an idiot. nothing to see here?... move along.
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hennybogan1953
26-Aug-12, 08:27
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What!
Your a Holocaust denier! I thought that position was reserved for Nazi's, lunatic white supremacist groups, and lunatic mulism supremacist groups. It is a historical fact well documented by the British, Russians, and Americans. It is FACT not faith!
What else don't you believe!
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though i hate to say it...
i agree with henny.
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I can't tell if henny is just being ironic.
"I believe that is only in Germany tugger!"
Also... Austria, Leicthenstein, Luxemberg, possibly Poland...
"do you dispute the holocaust ever happened?"
Something very terrible happened, that's clear. Who, why and what, well those questions are not something I can answer. I don't just assume the history books are true. If that accounts to Holocaust denial, well I best avoid those countries I just listed. Aw, no more Oktoberfest!
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tugger you said...
''Something very terrible happened, that's clear. Who, why and what, well those questions are not something I can answer.'' But you did answer them tugger. You said ''I agree. The blackest lie in history.''. We can read tugger.Why step away from your statement. That's like romney saying in one state 'i will sign a personhood amendment'.Then go to another and say 'there will be exceptions'. Or saying in one state;' i will sign the Ryan budget' then in another state he says;' i will save medicare'.
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hennybogan1953
26-Aug-12, 09:16
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Not Ironic, just whenever anyone denied the holocaust or talked about Jewish conspiracies it was from some crazy fringe group like the KKK or Muslim loonies.
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bc... I am of the opinion, my opinion, that we're being lied to. I can't tell you what actually happened. As far as I'm aware, there's quite a few documented cases of mass graves. Of course, that could be lies too, but the evidence does indeed point strongly to something terrible happening. But what they happened, I think that's a lie. Is that clear enough for you? You're very good at twisting what people say, I grant you that.
henny... if you think it's just racists and religious nuts who think there's a Jewish conspiracy, you're very mistaken. I can assure you I'm neither.
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hennybogan1953
26-Aug-12, 09:49
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Jewish conspiracy, do tell?
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when i was growing up, my best friend's parents were both holocaust survivers. i saw their tatoos. i heard their horrible stories. i saw how traumatised and neurotic they were. people can deny it all they want, but the truth is that millions of people (jews, gypsies, union activists, homosexuals, and atheists) were rounded up, imprisoned, ans systematically exterminated. the final solution is well documented. we can quibble over exact numbers, but the basic foundation of the story is inarguable to anyone with a shred of intelligence and the willingness to read and talk to people. i have personally met three survivors other than my friend's parents. i am convinced that the story they tell, which aligns with the basic story i have learned, is correct.
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i bow out of this argument
it is so offensive and so horrible that it takes my breath away. Upon reaching the concentration camps the women and children were separated from the men. Healthy men were sent to work till they died of disease or starvation.Most of the Women and all children were sent immediately into the gas chambers. Millions upon Millions of innocent children and young girls killed outright. This is so appalling. Sorry guys i bow out.
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"This is so appalling."
I fear the truth is even more appalling than the lies we're told.
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i suggest a frontal lobotomy
exaggerated conspiracy theory's are the hallmark of insanity.
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tugger
26-Aug-12, 10:46
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Deleted by tugger on 28-Aug-12, 05:44.
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... in support of tugger on at least one point, as time passes, it will become easier and easier to mold history into what we may want it to be ... actual truth will be spun, manipulated, rewritten, tinkered with ... words will evolve within their definitions ... conclusions will be based upon what "seems" like common sense to the person who is defining common sense for him/herself. I'm not agreeing with tugger's conclusions about history necessarily, I'm only commenting on the process by which we sift truth from chaff ... which is changing. Humanity needs to be careful.
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chaz5
Good history is about checking primary sources.
I am old enough to have read the news reports as they came out of Germany. The comments of the American and allied soldiers who were first in, and the later support troops and volunteers that had to clean up.
There are also the records kept by the camp staff, records that still exist.
Finally there is the physical remains of the camps themselves which still exist and cared for to remind us of what we can do. (All of us, German Nazis could do little without the tacit consent of the people, and those people were no different from us.)
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thubery...
... with all due respect, I am also old enough to understand "history" as it has evolved during my lifetime as well ... and I have indeed participated in stuff that is now incorporated into modern day classroom history lessons. Of course we need to verify sources to the extent we are able ... but that particular process is getting muddier and sometimes problematic; and, multiple interpretations are impeding clear journalism as well as the evolution of historical texts themselves. We're relying less and and less on physical evidence to form our opinions, and more and more upon electronic reporting along with the "spin" created by intellectual reporting for specific purpose. Books are going away. "Hard" evidence is melting into what we want it to be. Hence my statement that humanity needs to be careful.
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chaz5
I agree humanity needs to be careful. I agree that good history is difficult. But it is not impossible, a bit like the record for the hundred meters is difficult, but with hard work, talent and a bit of genius, it is not impossible.
But you are right, curiosity did kill the cat, but it also filled the bank balance.
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dmaestro
26-Aug-12, 12:48
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I think the nature of the german leadership, actual sites, primary sources and personal accounts are irrefutable. Mass killings by governments are far too common in history even the numerous genocidal type instances in the last 100 years, despite perpetrators denials. However, the belief that this event is widely exaggerated or even a hoax is spreading for many reasons. First and foremost, the sense the story has been exploited, particularly by israel, and also by the west and most importantly the usa in its special relationship with israel, which undermines the credibility of the sources. Secondly, historical revisionism is more common over time as the first hand evidence fades away and as the balance of world powers and demographics shift. I have said before that the process by which israel was imposed on the arabs over unified objections and their subsequent actions would come back to haunt israel and the usa. The supression of deniers is not the most effective approach into the future.
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dm ...
... I agree ... and the next generation will have considerably greater difficulty dealing with historical revisionism than we currently have. In a few decades, manufactured historical accounts will play a larger role for some countries to act a certain way ... and to justify that particular action. This kind of action is presently dismissed by most folks, yet evidence does suggest this as more than likely.
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Eisenhower ordered Germans to view the liberated Nazi Death Camps because he didn't think in the future people would believe those things existed.
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illi
ike was right
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chaz5
You may be right, historical revisionism is rife but it has been around a long time, just about a year after history started.
The whole of Shakespeare's history cycle was blatant revisionism. The Venerable Bede's history, the first history in the English language is total revisionism.
But history is not all about who won which war against whom, it is the story of humans, the migrations, the plagues, the great advances, the terrible natural disasters, and how humans coped with it all.
Very little revisionism here.
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I remembered seeing old war video's of Jews being shot and placed in open graves,then bulldozed over.Was that a prop?No.Some were still alive when they were buried according to two old Jews that were part of the extermination and survived as laborers that I know in NYC and are still living.I also know of someone who DOES have a lamp shade made out of Jewish skin and it was authenticated by DNA analysis as well as some carbon dating.Can it be someone elses skin?I doubt it,since the owner was a prior Nazi and its on an old German lamp!Sick I know,but only speaking what I have seen and heard over the years.Does any of this prove the extent of the holocost?No,but to deny it like the Iranian president,well,then I say....move to Iran!
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i h a ...
... I believe all that you have stated to be true (and I do respect your views). Yet, I also can envision that in decades to come (long after witnesses and surviving victims have passed) that revisionist activities will continue more rampant that they have in the past. In a hundred years, some historical things will be meshed within beliefs and presumptions with the evidence being explained in more than one way. Many believe this impossible, especially since we "know" what we "know" to be true. That will not always remain true.
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hennybogan1953
26-Aug-12, 16:38
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I can't think of one serious Holocaust denier with even the slightest shred of credibility. I think it is safe to assume that there will always be racists and nut jobs that will see conspiracies where they don't exist.
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And under the feet of the Palestinians in the holy land are Israelite ruins,who where there long before the muslim nomatic tribes.This also seems to have become some kind of buried fact that few know about.Few also know that archaelogical digs were done on various sites in Palestine and pottery and many other artifacts of ancient Isreal are directly below the feet of the Palestinians.The findings were quickly covered up by the Palestinians and made sure to be forgotton quickly.So as to who deserves the right to be on that land?You decide.My opinion is with Israel,not Palestine,regardless of present laws,state,ect.And I German!Of course,the Indians were on the US land before we invaded the US,so I am also on the Indians side!If they can cast us European decendants out of the USA...well so be it!I'd leave if I had to!
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i h a ...
... I'm not sure to whom your last comment was specifically directed.
But, on this new subject of who occupied a certain piece of land first, I'm unconvinced that it belongs to the earliest identifiable archaeological evidence. History is jammed full of wars where one people took the land from another ... I'm just unsure how one would ever determine the rightful owner. So, I ask, what criteria do you use to sanctify true ownership.
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