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us ambassador killed in libya
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shamash
15-Sep-12, 08:31

illi
O they did have a Navy,
a navy so strong in the 16th Century that the Ottoman Empire allied with it so that the Ottomans could dominate the Mediterranean (the "Great Sea") as much on the seas as much as it dominated the area on land --
a navy still so strong as the 19th century dawned, a scourge and a threat to the lives of Americans,
that President Thomas Jefferson sent over the US Navy to wipe their boats from their Barbary Coast.
illinawek
15-Sep-12, 11:47

They used to be leaders in astronomy, mathematics and medicine also. But that was a while ago.
zorroloco
15-Sep-12, 17:29

www.google.com
shamash
15-Sep-12, 18:02

"Profit Muhammad"
yeah, they way they spelled Muhammad's title on that sheet of notebook paper says it all.
chaz5
15-Sep-12, 18:24

... how quick we Americans are to judge those who do not understand our history. How quick we believe they should respond as we would. But, maybe some of them are.
illinawek
15-Sep-12, 18:29

I think they are being sincere. At least the people gathered in the photo are.
zorroloco
16-Sep-12, 08:01

shamash
engilsh is a difficult language. i teach english language learners. i wonder if you or i were to write posters in arabic how grammatically correct they would be.

just saying...
shamash
16-Sep-12, 12:30

it's not the grammar. . .
. . . it's that sometimes mistakes, even in spelling, are very revealing, even illuminating. Follow the oil.
chaz5
16-Sep-12, 13:03

Shamash ...
... what about "intent" ... does that matter in situations like this?
shamash
16-Sep-12, 13:28

intent?
a) it looks like a scene cobbled together by central casting in Hollywood or Bombay or Tripoli, Libya.
Libya & gripes about American motion pictures go way back, they were going to shoot Ben-Hur there in '58 till the Libyans cancelled that for "religious reasons."

b) intent? am sure they are scrambling overtime in Cairo to rescue that multi-billion dollar foreign aid package
that a high-powered delegation of American tycoons & politicians went over there and offered to the new Muslim Brotherhood regime about ten days ago.
chaz5
16-Sep-12, 13:41

Shamash ...
... of course, follow the money/oil and it explains a lot of the "why" of things on a high level; but, I'm not sure it's that easy to explain all that's going on based upon that alone. Culturally, Middle Eastern folks look at things differently, but it's my impression they mostly want to be left alone. Given a little taste of freedom from "Arab Spring" incidents, there are bound to be numerous, not well-defined groups of thinking. Some of these are bound to be anti-West; and, some of these are able to be disruptive (and that's what they're doing).
shamash
16-Sep-12, 13:43

Benghazi, Libya, September 14th:
graphics8.nytimes.com
chaz5
16-Sep-12, 13:45

Shamash ...
... exactly. The educational process for learning freedom does not come overnight. Are you saying they should be instantly respectful, gracious, and thankful as a group? Perhaps I'm missing your point.
shamash
16-Sep-12, 14:38

not at all, chaz
The US President repeatedly brags about assassinating one of their popular heroes --
what does he expect?

The US State Department continually takes a stand -- right up to advocating invasion --
against countries which have chosen to have Islamic clerics rule -- Iran, Afghanistan, etc --
and expects the flawed, American political system to be welcomed, preferred, embraced?

The US Government has interfered with or toppled regimes in many countries over there --
including Iran and Iraq on previous occasions in the 1930's and 1950's
--> that Big Stick policy does not exactly earn the trust of, or make friends with, the people.

And now US ally and former Mid East imperial landlord Great Britain
is making moves to legitimacize a coordinated, pre-emptive strike against Iran --

In Britain they now ask:

<< "Are we going to war with the Iranians? A former Lib Dem defence minister is believed to have claimed that he was sacked from the government to "avoid a damaging coalition split over a pre-emptive strike on Iran".

From the Mail on Sunday:

"Former Armed Forces Minister Sir Nick Harvey told friends that he was fired in the reshuffle to allow Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg to sign Britain up to an Israeli-US preventive strike to take out Iran’s nuclear installations.

Friends of Sir Nick – who was handed a knighthood just days later – say that he could have embarrassed the Lib Dem leader by being too critical of Israel’s actions if he had still been in the key Ministry of Defence post."

On a related note, the growing possibility of an Israeli attack on Iran is also believed to be the reason that Muslim minister Sayeeda Warsi was denied the "Middle East and North Africa" portfolio when she was appointed 'Senior Minister of State' at the Foreign Office in the reshuffle." >>
brigadecommander
16-Sep-12, 14:57

Time marches on and History is about to repeat itself yet again.
. History now gathers together the storm clouds. Let no-one claim to have a clean slate....no-one. Just like the climate before WW2, the extremists on all sides, The Neo-conservatives here,The likud in Israel, the Mullahs in Iran, the terrorists groups, will now again have there sway. And behind it all are the arms merchants that grow gleeful as the clouds gather..like vultures waiting for death. .The people of the street in all Countries are but pawns in the gathering storm. We are all to blame. So be it.
chaz5
16-Sep-12, 15:00

Shamash ...
... I appreciate a consolidation of historical points ... most of which I'm sensitive to.

There are two levels of Middle East activity, as I see it ... there are those activities that are typically political/economic that rulers, prez's, dictators, secretaries, prime ministers, etc. deal with. Most folks understand the CNN or Time Magazine version of these dances, and may even grasp some of the subtlety of oil and commercial motivations.

The other are the people of the Middle East who are culturally residing in an ever-changing evolution ... to some extent content with their environment (it's what they 'know') coupled with perpetual pressure to move toward something more ethereal, more distant, more desirable ... something they do not have. There is some cultural jealously perhaps.

Amidst this river of intermingling currents and eddies are those entities that have selfish ends in mind ... each for things they want or do not have. The West has been better at this, and continue to hone their skills.

Perhaps you're saying similar things using different words. I'm just expressing how I see it.
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