chess online
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 global citizens? |
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soulcrates 25-Aug-06, 19:06 |
To have a global community |
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soul |
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kementari 27-Aug-06, 17:58 |
Or at the very least, a pact of non-aggression and/or recognition that all approaches to God have the same intent and the same result, and none is superior to any other. If I might ask, do you think that Islam and Christianity will ever exist side by side without intolerance? Or are you thinking, by unity, that one will eventually wipe out the other through conversion therapy? <<Are people really open minded enough in 2006 to adhere to any one religion? Probably not, therefore the idea of a global community would only come after years of turmoil, and war.>> On that we are very much agreed. <<Apparently beliefs cannot always be changed, and sometimes people have to be killed.>> Which times? Is hatred of the infidels in and of itself, with the express desire to take down as many of us as possible given the means, a reason to kill? If so, we have an awful lot of very brainwashed people to go take out. I'm opposed to killing people who cannot be reasoned with, even the extraordinarily dangerous ones. I understand that there are times when it is inevitable, violence being what it is, but this should be the exception, not the rule. <<Giving to charitable causes is a great way to love your fellow humans. >> Absolutely. <<I've done my share of breaking up fights, and trying to control people's anger around me. Wish more would do the same out there.>> The gentle art of diplomacy... yeah, it's good to be the person who can make people see reason instead of seeing an excuse to be pissy. It takes some skill, too. Not everyone is good at remaining objective when tempers flare. <<Just start with one, and move forward from there.>> When I was a Bahá'í, one of the things that made that religion work for me a lot better than other ones was the idea that simply doing good works and living with joy in your heart was its own form of prayer. I may have shed the metaphysical emphasis, but the general belief that doing good things for myself and for others, and being happy with what I have, is certainly still a key part of my personal philosophy. |
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soulcrates 27-Aug-06, 19:32 |
Kem, why do you find it necessary to pick apart my arguments? |
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soulcrates 27-Aug-06, 19:37 |
Well, since you've called me out I should at least counter. Ever hear of the Crusades? When the christians went into Islamic countries to kill them? Ya, they lost and Islam took back Israel for a thousand years. If you think Timothy McVeigh attack and killed over 350 Americans because they were infidels, you're sorely mistaken. We shouldn't start a war against blonde hair blue eyed ex-military just because of him, nor should we call all of Islam the enemy unless we're intending on WWIII. There are 2.25 billion Muslims. If you think 290 million Americans are enough to withstand that, you're again mistaken. Yes, I agree that helping each other out is a benefit of religion, and without would be difficult to get people to do. The argument being, "What do I get out of this?". In religion, you get eternal salvation, but in this short life, you spend your time, effort, and money to help another out, and unless there is an afterlife, there is almost no way to get a selfish person to help out of good will. |
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bobbynox 27-Aug-06, 21:32 |
This seems to be an important subject... I work hard. I pays my taxes. I don't break any laws, except for speeding, but have now gone one-full week without speeding; thanks to Tugger. I don't waste any raw materials, like water, air, soil. I am raising two girls who are learning another language besides English. The expectation is that I should be doing more? I think the terrorists should consider what they are doing--and stop. |
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kementari 27-Aug-06, 22:00 |
<<Ever hear of the Crusades?>> Heh. I vaguely remember something about them, yes. <<When the christians went into Islamic countries to kill them? Ya, they lost and Islam took back Israel for a thousand years.>> So the moral of the story is that we shouldn't go marching off into another country to rape, pillage, and convert the infidels to our better way of life and higher moral standard. Yeah, I'm with you on that. <<If you think Timothy McVeigh attack and killed over 350 Americans because they were infidels, you're sorely mistaken.>> You lost me on that jump, though. The motivations behind McVeigh's brand of sociopathic stupidity and the religious zealot's brand of sociopathic stupidity are a bit different. With a guy like McVeigh, you have one sick puppy who had some very messed up notions of what is right and wrong in his head. With the terrorists who strike for Allah, you have a recruiting base of millions, many of whom are desperate for survival and willing to take whatever shot they have at making sure their children live... even if it means sending them to a school that parallels Hitler's youth camps in the songs they sing and the training they receive. The more organized of the two is obviously the more dangerous. The question is whether or not we can kill that organization with bombs. I say it's possible, but we would need to bomb the entire region into oblivion, and this just doesn't seem like an acceptable solution. The whole thing reminds me of Hercules and the Hydra. We're strong, but when we chop off one head, two grow to take its place. How do we win in a situation like that? <<We shouldn't start a war against blonde hair blue eyed ex-military just because of him, nor should we call all of Islam the enemy unless we're intending on WWIII. There are 2.25 billion Muslims.>> Oh, that clarifies it. We are both on the same page here. My answer to the problem is we take the high road and eliminate the source of their hatred by promoting education and doing what we can to support moderating political forces in the region. We attempt to get the natives to realize the danger of allowing these sorts of forces to exist. I don't have a great deal of hope that this will succeed, but the alternative of launching another Crusade strikes me as a very baaad idea, too. <<Yes, I agree that helping each other out is a benefit of religion, and without would be difficult to get people to do.>> I disagree with that. Some of the most charitable, kind-hearted, genuinely good people I've ever known are atheists. They don't help out of a sense of duty to God, they help because it's the right thing to do. <<In religion, you get eternal salvation, but in this short life, you spend your time, effort, and money to help another out, and unless there is an afterlife, there is almost no way to get a selfish person to help out of good will.>> As opposed to my highly religious Uncle, who made $700,000 a year as a trial lawyer, but was still caught embezzling close to 6 million dollars from his firm? I'd be very curious to see the statistics on whether or not people who believe that they must save up for eternal salvation by doing good works actually do more good works. For that matter, I'd be very curious to see if people who believe that God is watching over them (and forgiving them when they slip, sinful beings that they are) are more likely, less likely, or roughly as likely to commit white collar crime. Selfish people stink. </rant> |
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soulcrates 27-Aug-06, 22:33 |
Was your highly religious Uncle a baptist? Back to your above statements, "but the alternative of launching another Crusade strikes me as a very baaad idea, too." Correct. |
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kementari 27-Aug-06, 22:44 |
I'm glad it all turned out for the best for her in the end, and equally glad that the abuse stopped abruptly when she said something. It doesn't always work that way, unfortunately. Go Grandma. For the record, my highly religious Uncle was/is a Protestant. Not sure what kind, as I never liked him, even as a very little kid. If you google David Moskal, the sordid details of exactly what a scumbag he was (and, in my eyes, remains even now that he is "reformed" and out of jail) is pretty easy to find. My own Grandma says I should not hold revenge in my heart against him, because it will eat me. I told her fine, but if he tried to do to her what he did to so many others, I would come after him with the force of a thousand horses (my Grandma's sweet, you don't swear around her... more colorful language surely applies there). |
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soulcrates 27-Aug-06, 22:48 |
Well, I'm sure you may not know this, but. . . . |
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kementari 27-Aug-06, 22:56 |
My bad... It just makes me furious all over again when I read through that. |
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kementari 27-Aug-06, 23:14 |
Muslims and Christians and Atheists, oh my! Like the Bible, the Qur'an has a few contradictions in it. Yes, you're not supposed to kill or harbor violent thoughts. Except for when you are. Is it any wonder why you get tribal elders who are a little confused on what is and is not appropriate punishment? www.boloji.com" target="_blank">-> www.boloji.com I'm not saying that the Qur'an is directly responsible for what happened to that girl. The people... each and every one of the very large crowd in attendance bears that blame. What the Qur'an is directly responsible for is propping up the notion that women are the handmaidens and the servants of the men. It's hard to get women to realize their equality and their power when their Holy Book delivers a very mixed message on that. Not surprising when you look back at Muhammad's history with the ladies... quite the gentleman, he was. |
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kementari 27-Aug-06, 23:19 |
Death penalty for rapists... For one thing, death is too easy a release for someone who has done something so horrible. For another, I don't want my tax dollars funding the torture or extermination of anyone. It's one of those ethical things that goes hand in hand with being a pacifist. |
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soulcrates 27-Aug-06, 23:44 |
Kem, sorry but I hate typing out the entire name. I don't need to be paying for 3 hots and a cot for someone that would do that to another person. "For one thing, death is too easy a release for someone who has done something so horrible." Maybe true for an athiest, but not for someone who believes in the afterlife as much as they believe in this life, there is hell for those people. Death is only the beginning. |
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kementari 28-Aug-06, 00:05 |
Kem works just fine... everyone shortens it to that You have proof that there is a hell for people who believe that there is a hell? Do you also have proof that there is a heaven? If so, can you buy me a new car? I've always wanted something sporty and black, and I'm sure you can afford it. *grin* Seriously, though.... the end moments of psychological suffering in thinking that they were about to go before God might be a bit tense, but then it's over. Your statement "death is only the beginning" seems to take it as a given that there is an afterlife for believers. How do you know? <<I don't need to be paying for 3 hots and a cot for someone that would do that to another person.>> The execution is more expensive in the long run, and that's not counting the cost of teaching our children that it's okay to kill someone when they do something wrong. It's hard to put a dollar figure on something like that, but it's also important that we consider it. The path to peace is to wage peace. Righteously. The path no non-violence is to wage non-violence unless there truly is no other alternative. Pre-emptive aggression is not self-defense, it's pre-emptive aggression. Occasionally, mistakes are made in the process, and those mistakes cannot be taken back. |
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soulcrates 28-Aug-06, 00:12 |
"The execution is more expensive in the long run, and that's not counting the cost of teaching our children that it's okay to kill someone when they do something wrong." How is it more expensive to kill someone guilty of committing rape, instead of keeping them fed and healthy for up to 80 years? Explain that please. Also, is it better to teach kids that when they're sexually assaulted as children the adults who do it are getting out of jail in a few years? I think they should know the difference between right and wrong, and blessing and punishment. I would hate to have my children stand idly by why they see criminals with more rights than them. About the pre-emptive agression, you should be talking to the rapists about that, our duty is merely to finish them properly. |
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kementari 28-Aug-06, 01:36 |
Gladly. It's called court costs. If you want the financial skinny on it, check out this PDF file, run a cntrl+f for financial facts. www.deathpenaltyinfo.org" target="_blank">-> www.deathpenaltyinfo.org <<Also, is it better to teach kids that when they're sexually assaulted as children the adults who do it are getting out of jail in a few years? >> Assuming that you can prove guilt, I am in favor of locking someone up for life for the sexual assault of a child. Cardinal or no. People who are outed for molesting children have a bit of a tough time in prison, and frankly, I'm fine with that. It is better to teach kids that when we punish people, the effects of that punishment follow them throughout life. I know who the sex offenders that have been released in my neighborhood are, and it doesn't look like they've got great jobs. They are lucky to be out of jail and paying taxes again, but one could hardly say that they are living lives of contentment and ease. <<I think they should know the difference between right and wrong, and blessing and punishment.>> I do, too. We just differ on whether or not killing is okay. Punishment doesn't need to be violent to be effective. << I would hate to have my children stand idly by why they see criminals with more rights than them.>> You mean the right to a free meal? Or the right to wear an ankle bracelet and work at the Country Buffet? <<About the pre-emptive agression, you should be talking to the rapists about that, our duty is merely to finish them properly.>> Remember that uncle I was telling you about? His son raped my sister when she was visiting him, less than a year ago. I am very much with you in spirit here, and I came very close to calling people who know people. I've given the issue some thought. Vigilante behavior by individuals is not acceptable, even when guilt is "certain", because we are human and prone to error. Vigilante behavior by the government only compounds the chance for human error as more and more people become involved. The system is imperfect. A concise list of all of the moral and ethical reasons for why I feel it should be abolished is actually available online.... I formed my opinions on the death penalty when studying Gregg v. Georgia (1976) and reading Judge Brennan's dissenting opinion. I couldn't possibly say it better myself. www.law.cornell.edu" target="_blank">-> www.law.cornell.edu |
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kementari 28-Aug-06, 01:49 |
That's a whole 'nother debate, and one that certainly deserves its own thread. Oh, but wait, we're already on a whole 'nother debate, and one that certainly deserves its own thread. What it boils down to is that the existence of the afterlife is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence in order for it to be accepted as a given in rational debate. What kind of afterlife, Valhalla? Hades? Purgatory? Whom do I need to pray to in order to get there or avoid going there? Will I need coins laid over my eyes at my burial in order to get past the gatekeeper? Will there be beer, mead, or wine? Martinis? Most importantly, will there be karaoke, and if so, will there be complimentary earplugs? These are all valid and useful constructs in our literature, but stating that any or all of them exist, and if you don't believe it, well, that's just your naivé belief is a little like saying that my not believing in the tooth fairy is just a theory. There is no evidence for Cerebrus, and there is no evidence for Satan. There is only literature. I'll accept that it's influential literature, but I see no reason (given the extraordinary number of contradictions present within the Bible) to assume that it is correct about anything it predicts or describes. |
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soulcrates 28-Aug-06, 02:04 |
Well, considering there are 6 billion people on Earth "Gladly. It's called court costs. If you want the financial skinny on it, check out this PDF file, run a cntrl+f for financial facts. -> www.deathpenaltyinfo.org " There are only court costs in place now for this, because the argument remains. The argument for capital punishment against rapists is religious, and thus there couldn't be an expensive court costs preventing this from happening. If the party considered guilty of crime, death. No appeals, no long drawn out sentences where they're in jail, but death. This would stop there from ever being a chance of "reoffense". I would gladly pull up a link for % of reoffenses with sex offenders, but being an American I'm sure you already know. I just don't know why you're against it. About your lack of faith, it's distrubing and yet unsuprising. So easily it's dismissed that you've been given this chance, so easily people claim it's impossible to repeat. Quite a mystery to me how man can have such delusions that he is the center of the universe. I don't claim to have any more proof than what's already out there. If you're familiar with mathematics then you'd be able to see the inevitability of a mathematically balanced book as the Qur'an. If for instance, you take the probability of having a number be the multiple of 19, would be 1:19. In the Quran there are 114 suras. 114/19=6. There are 6346 verses, 6346/19=334. If you add 6+3+4+6=19. The first prayer revealed to the prophet Mohammad(P.B.U.H) consisted of 19 words, using 19 different letters, and your lips touch when you say it in arabic 19 times. Now just these facts I've given you here, has a probability of 1:47045881. I don't have a working calculator that could give you the approx. % but it's very low. Indeed you can see how as these amazing multiples of 19 show up the % of it being by chance is reduced to 0%. Tell me know that you have not seen proof other than life itself? This too is literature that you speak of as knowledge, is it not? |
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kementari 28-Aug-06, 10:12 |
Innocent until proven guilty And if the evidence is strong, but not compelling? Half-death? Do we dig up the body and give it back to the family if we make a mistake? Do we go with a frontal labotomy and... errr... cut our losses? <<This would stop there from ever being a chance of "reoffense". I would gladly pull up a link for % of reoffenses with sex offenders, but being an American I'm sure you already know. I just don't know why you're against it.>> Recidivism in general is a huge problem in any society. We used to "solve" it with public hangings. The people gasping in the noose for the pleasure of the crowd were not always guilty. If you're not sure why I'm against it, you probably didn't follow my link to Brennan's dissenting opinion in Gregg v. Georgia. |
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bobby, jd, soul jd. thank you for not shooting people, although if you get in the mood, perhaps i could send you a list?...just kidding.... soul, as far as kem picking apart your arguments, i will quote from the club description...."Be prepared to have others challenge your beliefs. Be prepared to defend your ideas...no one gets a free ride!" while it may have felt like a personal attack, it seemed to me that the attack was on the ideas you put forth in a public forum, not against you. that is the raison d'etre of this club. i am glad that you two seem to have worked things out like the rational, civilized, educated, intelligent caring people you are!! hugs all around : ) |
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kementari 28-Aug-06, 16:28 |
The human mind is a strange and wonderful thing... I'm speaking from experience here, slightly. Your assumption that my dismissal of God is easy is completely and utterly flawed. You have absolutely no idea how fierce my spiritual search was. I had my head in some pretty strange places. Well.. actually, you've got some idea of what kind of approach I take to life by now, so maybe you do. <<I don't have a working calculator that could give you the approx. % but it's very low. Indeed you can see how as these amazing multiples of 19 show up the % of it being by chance is reduced to 0%. Tell me know that you have not seen proof other than life itself? This too is literature that you speak of as knowledge, is it not?>> www.mcescher.com" target="_blank">-> www.mcescher.com , www.jsbach.org" target="_blank">-> www.jsbach.org , www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk" target="_blank">-> www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk Mathematics can be so beautiful that it borders on art, and some artists are very much inspired by math. en.wikipedia.org" target="_blank">-> en.wikipedia.org Kim Peek does some remarkably improbable things with his brain. This doesn't make him walking proof of God's existence, it makes him walking proof of how little we know about the human brain. <<Indeed you can see how as these amazing multiples of 19 show up the % of it being by chance is reduced to 0%.>> Errr... I'm even less of a physicist than I am an economist, but I've read enough about the world of the subatomic to understand just how small the chance has to get to be reduced to 0. If a writer interprets 19 as the cornerstone of divine perfection, the odds of him building the number 19 into his art seem somewhat greater than 0. Subconscious design is a huge part of art... letting your imagination roam. Given sufficient skill, amazing works of unthinkable symmetry and art are more than possible-- they are rampant throughout history! I'm not saying I'm some kind of H.P. Lovecraft or anything, but I know what it's like to write like you're in a trance and come up for air wondering where the heck the last three hours went. I don't put anything past the power of a finely tuned that isn't afraid to wander. Frankly, I'm a lot more impressed by Bach's Fugue No. 2 in C minor from a Well Tempered Clavier than I am by the Qur'an. |
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eldude 29-Aug-06, 16:23 |
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soulcrates 29-Aug-06, 16:29 |
Eldude, keep up the good work! |
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eldude 29-Aug-06, 16:32 |
Thanks |
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jd however, i have two tarantulas, and they are a bit worried as you very pointedly did not mention arachnids. what givs? are you an arachniphobe? |
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eldude 29-Aug-06, 17:53 |
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