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bobbynox 29-Aug-06, 12:46 |
 Deleted by bobbynox on 23-Jan-07, 08:32.
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uh oh it is my understanding the elementary kids in the us compare fairly well to kids around the world (see: www.nctm.org" target="_blank">-> www.nctm.org - nctm is the national council of teachers of mathmatics). eight graders are doing ok. but, it is in high school that scores drop off compared to the rest of the industrial world. now, here is the key point that most folks outside of education fail to realize. in the us, ALL kids who have not dropped out MUST be tested. ALL of them - special ed, kids who do not speak english well (or sometimes at all), kids who just do not care. contrariwise, in almost all the european countries and in japan, kids who are not seen as 'college-material' are funneled into tech/vocational schools or other career paths. these kids do NOT get tested and they are not aggregated in the scores that are published. in other words, all american kids are competing (at least in these international math tests) with the top 20-30% of kids in other countries. for this reason, it is obvious that any kind of average score info will be skewed to the disadvantage of american kids, teachers, and schools. now, that being said, do our kids need to do better on math? abso-posi-certain-solutely! reading and writing too! and we are working diligently to do so. look at the nctm article...scores are improving. finally, i will leave you with a story. i was at a national teacher conference at a workshop on international math education. an american teacher was talking to a japanese teacher. the american said, 'what are you doing in japan that works so well? your scores are phenomenal!' the japanese teacher said, 'yeah, our scores are great. but that is all our kids can do. take tests. they have no creativity.' his point was that there is a hell of a lot more to education than can be quantified on a standardized test! |
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Video games So they get fat sitting on the couch eating chips and staring for hours at the flashing lights and sounds. How can true curiousity about the wonders of knowledge compete with that? By the way, nice post jeff. |
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eldude 29-Aug-06, 14:33 |
JUST A THEORY! Just an idea... might be wrong.. |
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soulcrates 28-Sep-06, 01:43 |
Actually, |
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I've started back in college recently and it always amazes me to find out that almost no one wants to be in the classes. They are only there because the company wants them to get the qualifications, they are not there to learn; those are the people on apprenticeships. Then you have the other students....the ones who choose to study full time but who do not like to do any study or learning. I find these people very strange in that respect, why are they wasting their time and the lectures/teachers time. They are disruptive and hinder the people who genuinely want to learn. There are always going to be classes that you don't enjoy or you struggle in, you just have to muddle on through them. Although I do feel that everyone has a certain level of intelligence they can achieve, some people are lucky and can pick things up quite easily with not much study others have to work hard with lots of study. I was in a design class (it was a 2hr class) Monday and we had a new lecturer, anyway...He was going through the course module etc for the first 10 - 15 mins then he started doing some teaching, about fifteen mins later one student was sleeping, two were giggling about God knows what, one kept txting me saying that he was board as ____, and the others were paying no attention what so ever. I found this highly disrespectful, but it just goes to show what people are like. I myself found him quite interesting and enjoyed the lesson (I did think I would not enjoyed other design classes). During the lesson I was asking all sorts of questions which he seemed to like and I got to find out what he did before he started teaching (one knowledgeable guy who I shall be taking a lot of advantage of....in a good way). One thing that he did say really got to me and it was "you should never stop learning, it's one of the most beautiful things you can do." Hearing him say that has given me a gentle push towards something I want to do in the future; If I succeed I will have a lot to thank him for. Generally when lectures ask if there are any questions the usual response is "what time can we go?" With regards to parents I don't think they give their kids enough encouragement these days. Yes they may tell their kids to do their homework but how many actually check they have done it (I don't mean check if it's right, just if they have done it). Some parents ask their kids if they have any homework and the kid replies no, the kid then goes off and has fun. A few days later the kid is panicking and getting into a right state because they haven’t (come on say it with me) done their homework. Whos fault is it? Well to a degree I thinks it’s the parents, it depends how old the kid is. If they are relatively young it’s the parents, if they are of an age where they should start taking responsibility for their actions it’s the kids’ fault. I think teaching could be one of the most rewarding jobs about, especially when you find a couple of those students who want to learn. One more thing – I think it’s only really up to a point where you get the students who don’t want to learn, I think at degree level everyone (or nearly everyone) wants to learn. Correct me if I’m wrong. I also think video games is partly responsible for violence in young kids |
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leo_london 28-Sep-06, 07:15 |
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good point leo |
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Education Getting the individual off to an early start with the right motivation is up to the parents. Once started, the individual is responsible for learning what he needs or wants to learn. He should make good choices, but once again, the ability to make those good choices stems from the parents. To the extent that this country is good or bad in education is a reflection on our society and our values within the society. Some groups of people are considered and sterio-typed as being intelligent and good learners. Some are not. However, any individual within any culture can "get educated", but it depends on his/her own determination, skill, desire, and parental "push". A good balance of all things available to help would be best including TV, Video games, books, magazines, camps, clubs, peers, teachers, and parents. |
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leo_london 28-Sep-06, 07:34 |
Jeff.. |
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tugger 28-Sep-06, 16:43 |
Deleted by tugger on 28-Sep-06, 16:52.
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i don't think the problem is simply tv and video games. i think the problem, at least here in the uk, is a lot deeper... the intelligent people in this country have the least kids... they tend to be career minded... the people who are breeding like rabbits are the council estate types... now, i'm not trying to be snobbish, but there is a clear intelligence difference in your average council estate resident and your average private home resident... the stupider people are the ones breeding the most... if intelligence is hereditory, which i believe it is to a point (there's a whole debate there...), then logic suggests that the average intelligence of the population will decrease... mathematics, well, that's certainly something you can either do well, or do poorly... i have always been excellent at maths... i didn't learn to be good at it, it just came naturally... i think if a kid clearly cannot do complex mathematics, then focus on the kid's strengths instead... of course, we need to know the basics, but does an adult really need to know how to work out the volume of a sphere, or how to multiply massive numbers? why try to teach a kid this if he can't understand it? like i say, without meaning to brag, i'm good at maths, but has this really helped me in life? certainly not financially... i would argue it's made me happier, because i play chess relatively well... but it hasn't got me a fantastic job with an obscene salary... i'm a projectionist... sod all to do with maths... |
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tug there is also a lot to be said for the mental skills one acquires when learning mathematics. i believe it can teach excellent problem solving techniques the generalize beyond math. |
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certainly people need to be able to work out what 10% of something is, but that's basic maths... even stupid people should be able to figure out what x divided by ten is... you just have to teach them that 10% is the same is divided by ten... you don't need to be able to comprehend algebra to understand that... but as for adding fractions, do you actually need to do that in everyday life? i certainly cannot remember the last time i needed to add 1/2 to 1/3... this is where we're getting into mathematical thinking... it just baffles some people... why fill their heads with *you have to find the lowest common demoninator blah blah blah* ? teach them how to add and stuff, of course, but leave the pointless stuff... focus on their strengths, maybe art, or language... if we allowed our children more freedom to study what they enjoy most, then they would most probably learn a lot more, and be happier... or maybe i'm just thinking like a hippy while i smoke like one...! |
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leo_london 28-Sep-06, 17:41 |
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tug so. we are back to leo's idea: school until the kid is ready to do something different, say 11-13 years. they then get to find themselves for a while. they could do certain kinds of work, community volunteer stuff, outdoor activities and sports, music, theater, or part time study...but all individualized for the child. when the child becomes a human, s/he can make decisions about education and training. people could enter the workforce at 30 instead of at twenty....and work till 70...with longer life expectencies many are working that long now. we can easily pay for this program in the us....lets see...we are spending $400 BILLION per year on the military and that does not even count the wars on terror and iraq. spend an even $100 billion on military, give $100 billion back to the taxpayers, and divvy the rest up to feed the hungry, immunize the kids, fund a meaningful educational system, and take care of all the sick people. |
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leo_london 28-Sep-06, 17:51 |
Thats another good point, we are already being told that the Govt will be unable to fund adequate pensions for the next generation. |
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leo |
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Same thing in the US I like your idea, leo and jeffheiman....except for the part about working until 70. That doesn't sound good at all. But there definitely should be more room for the child to work on his strengths. Still, weaknesses need to be worked on too, so there is always going to have to be a compromise because jeff is right: We need a wide variety of knowledge for life. Still, it has been my experience (at least so far in the workforce) that I have to learn the duties of any job once I am hired, and all those years of school are generally pointless. It's good for a base of knowledge, but it doesn't usually apply to what one does. That being said, it is important to demonstrate that one is capable of learning the basics and getting a degree. If you show intelligence and determination enough to get a degree, then you are generally a safe person to hire for a responsible job. Companies don't want uneducated people who have never proven they are capable of learning. |
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bobbynox 28-Sep-06, 20:02 |
Deleted by bobbynox on 23-Jan-07, 08:32.
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bobby |
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bobbynox 28-Sep-06, 20:15 |
Deleted by bobbynox on 23-Jan-07, 08:32.
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war just kidding...i will be happy to show you the error of your think this weekend. |
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soulcrates 28-Sep-06, 20:19 |
No, bobby I think you're onto something. |
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