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From	Message
soulcrates 06-Oct-06, 00:59	North Korea Nuclear Test They've released a statement that they would test a nuclear weapon, and I don't think they care what anyone thinks. Is this a sign of threat? Is this a test to prove that the nukes they are selling on the black market actually work? Who knows, all I know is that North Korea is a FAR larger threat to mankind than Iraq. Too bad we're stuck in Iraq with out hands ties while North Korea goes unchecked. Any thoughts as to how we can stop this rogue nation?
alexwilson 06-Oct-06, 04:11	I think Bush's plan is to allow Japan to go nuclear. I'll bet they can cook up a bomb in a month. The real problem is how do you stop the North Koreans from exporting their technology to places that we don't want it to.
bobbynox 06-Oct-06, 08:52	Deleted by bobbynox on 23-Jan-07, 08:48.
daverundle 07-Oct-06, 02:05	At least this time WMD should be easy to find cos they are telling us they are building them!! But of course NK has a massive well trained army and is backed by hte Chinese what price us invading them in our fight against terrorism?
soulcrates 07-Oct-06, 02:09	The thing is North Korea has ties with many countries. He was only testing the missles to prove to his buyers that his stuff is indeed legit. It didn't work that time, or did it? Perhaps he called them off, or even if they did fail, they learned something for next time. How long do we allow this country to create WMD's and even test their capabilities? Threatening a nuclear test is a way to prove that his stuff works. If this occurs, we should expect that it is like a cockroach. You see one, and there are 100 that you don't.
tugger 07-Oct-06, 17:23	ok, i've been reading up on this a little... there is one thing that strikes me... technically, the united states and south korea are already at war with the north, and have been since 1950, as the armistice of 1953 that ended the korean war hostilities never actually resulted in a peace treaty. more than anything, i wanted to get an idea of how much of a threat north korea are... i started off looking at their relations with the south... both the north and south seek eventual reunification, with both parties retaining power of their respected states... but the north insist on doing this without outside interference... yet america continue to have nearly 30,000 troops in the south, an act which the north considers aggressive and a means of preventing reunification... this is why the north are hostile to america... it seems clear to me... america offer to withdraw troops from the south in return for the north abandoning its nuclear programme...
softaire 07-Oct-06, 20:54	That seems amazingly simple and straight-forward. We will withdraw the troops and they will promise to stop building nukes. That's a lot like when Clinton gave them the technology and they promised not to build the nukes. I'm sure they would mean it this time. p.s.- How does the South feel about that? I would think it up to them to decide if we leave. If they want us out, I say leave.
tugger 08-Oct-06, 05:51	how do the south feel? well, it's very difficult to say... they also want a peaceful conclusion with the north... the south also want to reunify korea... this is not possible with america having a military presence in the south... but it's difficult for the south... for a start, the americans weren't actually invited to the south to help sort out the problems after WWII, though they weren't arguing about being liberated from imperial japan... but korea was split without the consent of either the north or south... now, america are certainly allies of the south... the south are now faced with a problem... if they don't ask the americans to leave, they cannot achieve their goal of reunification with the north... and if they ask them to leave, they are vulnerable to attack... but why would the north attack them? it would just bring the americans back... and they would no longer be trusted... the north would lose a lot more long term... it would greatly help matters if the chinese used their huge influence, and the russians... tell the north clearly that an invasion of the south would result in withdrawal of support, and also no resistance to america using force to defend the south... without china and russia, north korea are isolated... unless you count the might of venezuala... and i doubt they would support an invasion or any act of agression... i don't know if the south want america out, my guess is they do, but they fear the north too much... as for whether or not the north would actually abandon their nuclear programme, that would only happen if america were to give assurances that they are no threat to the north... it would involve officially declaring peace, and lifting the economic sanctions... is that really too much to ask? the koreans only seek nuclear weapons, so they say, as a deterrant... exactly the same reason anyone else has nukes... but i don't see this lovely peacful solution happening... is war the answer? let me just see if i've got this right... if we go to war with korea, it will be because they are ignoring international demands to not arm themselves with nuclear weapons... do we go to war with them before a successful test, or after? if it's after, then we are going to war with a nuclear capable country... and if before, we risk the war either being an act of paranoia, or a just war, which of course would be against a nuclear capable country... so we risk nuclear war in an attempt to prevent future nuclear war... does that sound daft to anyone else? it's like trying to put a fire out with petrol... and one more question... why is north korea any more dangerous with a nuke than pakistan? at least the koreans aren't muslims... there is no holy war with america... sure, the north don't like christianity, or, in particular, protestantism... but outside of their borders they couldn't care less about religion... they do not seek global religious domination like the muslims...
softaire 08-Oct-06, 06:28	East and West Germany were able to get back together. North and South Vietnam are one again. Koreans will get back together, sooner or later. It's just a matter of when and how. It would be nice if all the larger, stronger, more influential nations would work together to influence world peace and stability. However, each nation is really only pulling for their own self interests. We saw this with the "Food for Oil Scandal" and we are seeing it with our problems in trying to keep Iran from developing nukes. I think the U.S. has tried, at one time or another, friendly diplomacy, friendly and helpful "back-room politics", the U.N., one-on-one talks as well as multi-party talks, indirect threats as well as overt threats etc. etc. with North Korea and probably most other nations we want to influence one way or another. So far, it doesn't seem to be working. The decisions and strategies to try must be difficult to determine. How can you give up a lot and yet not give up too much? How can you ensure promises get kept and if they don't, what can you do in response? World politics seems to me to be very difficult... how do you get a consensus when individual nations are most interested in their own well being? And, if that should not be the case, how do you change it? If South Korea asked us to leave, I'd have no problem with that... it is for them to say. They are the ones that risk what the North might do. This would be their intersting problem... risk invasion by the North for the possibility of re-unification. Interesting.
bobbynox 08-Oct-06, 06:31	Deleted by bobbynox on 23-Jan-07, 08:48.
tugger 08-Oct-06, 07:28	softaire... there is one thing america haven't tried yet... taking themselves out of the euqation altogether... you can bet that would work... interestingly, north korea have said today that they might be willing to drop its test if america involve themselves with face to face talks with them... they did warn, however, that if america moves towards further sanctions or military response then they would accelerate their nuclear plans... the ball is in america's court... north korea aren't the problem that iran are... north korea have made no threats to the south, japan or anybody... not as far as i can see, anyway... bobby... where is the LDM? who's fired shots at who?
echo3 08-Oct-06, 08:56	it's the line of demarcation between north K and south K tuggs. Potentially one of the world's major flashpoints.
tugger 08-Oct-06, 09:08	ah... i know it as the korean peninsula... so why can't i find anything about this exchange of fire on google news? anybody got any links to the story?
bobbynox 08-Oct-06, 09:34	Deleted by bobbynox on 23-Jan-07, 08:49.
bobbynox 08-Oct-06, 09:36	Deleted by bobbynox on 23-Jan-07, 08:49.
tugger 08-Oct-06, 09:46	thanks for the link... though it's nothing serious... this won't reignite a full blown war or anything... it's just the south koreans firing warning shots to 5 nk soldiers who crossed the border... the north koreans retreated without returning fire... it's nothing... the north koreans were probably having a laugh due to boredom... "what shall we do?" "i know, let's sneak into their territory, see if we get noticed..." "holy crap, are they shooting at us?" "get back! get back! run!" while laughing hysterically...
bobbynox 08-Oct-06, 09:50	Deleted by bobbynox on 23-Jan-07, 08:49.
soulcrates 08-Oct-06, 11:24	I've never heard LDM, only DMZ In the article they too call it the DeMilitarised Zone. If this is true and troops are building on the sides of this dangers place, we should rethink our occupation of other countries as to imminent threat, and go there first. Anyone can understand that the threat of a dozen nuclear warheads on intercontinental ballistics missles is far greater than any sarin gas canisters in IRAQ. Perhaps if we spent a few milllion on diplomacy and got Kim Jong Il to have open dialogue with the rest of the S.E. asian countries under our supervision, then we'd have a way to formulate a plan to squash this threat. It is far more of a threat than Iraq ever was, and only proves how inopportune the invasion has been.
echo3 08-Oct-06, 12:23	Soul...... .... there won't be a war with N Korea so we don't need to redirect troops. Talking is all we have. Oh and perhaps a Tomahawk strike or three on their nuclear plants if we have the coordinates
daverundle 08-Oct-06, 13:54	i see in todays paper even the Chinese are getting a bit p****d with the NK!!
tugger 08-Oct-06, 13:57	which paper? if it's the sunday mirror, the people or the news of the world, then the opposite is true... also, pissed isn't swearing in america, you can get away with that one...
soulcrates 08-Oct-06, 16:11	Dave, we can only hope. China would be the powerhouse to have to deal with them, since we've got our hands full at the moment. Hopefully they p*ss off China enough that they use their tripled defense budget on Kim Jong Il, and not anyone innocent. I can't see China unmitigatingly attacking another country, but since I didn't see it with America, and here we are in Iraq, I don't know what to think. Just hope N. Korea keeps their hands tied, while ours are also.
daverundle 09-Oct-06, 00:43	tugger it was the Sunday Times and not once in the story did they mention boobs!! Apparently the border guards are coming home with horror stories cos at the moment they have to hand NK who flee back (must be bad if you are fleeing NK to go to China!!) they are not happy doing this. Also the Chinese government seem to have changed tack regarding having a nuclear power as unpredictable as NK on their doorstep. It appears their biggest concern is if the US bomb the nuclear sites their could be a nuclear cloud that moves in their direction, i guess some people may say serves them right for offering the NK's support in the past!
tugger 09-Oct-06, 06:02	what, serves you right, have a radioactive cloud for your citizens? america cannot bomb the nuclear sites for that very reason... it would affect far too many people... it would endanger the entire far east... do you think china will sit back and allow america to go dropping bombs on nk's nuclear sites? this is the danger... a conventional war with north korea could have nuclear consequences...
jaymar 09-Oct-06, 06:28	Even.. ..the Chinese are a little stunned at this test NK have carried out. "Brazen" is a strong word for them to use against their ally. Now we'll se if the UN really has any teeth or whether its just the talking shop that it appears to be. George Bush has said he won't tolerate a nuclear armed NK and on the lunchtime news on the BBC they are reporting that a military response from the US is being discussed. If the UN fail to respond vigourously to this provocation then we are into a whole new ball game.
tugger 09-Oct-06, 06:35	america should not be discussing military action, or at least they certainly should not let the koreans know this... it will just have the opposite effect... nk have already said they will abandon their plans if america engage in talks... but while america pose a security threat to nk they will continue to seek nukes... it seems that america are responding to this very serious international threat with the tact and diplomacy of a giant dog turd... trying to put a fire out with petrol...
echo3 09-Oct-06, 07:28	Well, indeed Tuggs.... .... but do you really trust the NK's to drop everything because the US agrees to talks? Furthermore, can we expect any UN "resolution" (that's an oxymoron surely) to have any effect on NK? We cannot rely on the UN to achieve anything either through diplomatic pressure or on-the-ground monitoring. We must get strong international support and remind China as to exactly how much mess they'd be getting us all into if they stand with NK. If China upsets us, who is going to buy all those cheap clothes their children sweat 20 hours a day to make?
daverundle 09-Oct-06, 08:09	Do you really think there is a military option that the US can take? NK has already fought the US and SK with no real resolution other than both sides appearing to declare it a draw! Would the American public support yet anther foray into Korea tieing up more troops and the loss of more American lives? Also although China have been critical of NK would they stand by and watch the US use military action on an ally to solve this problem?
soulcrates 09-Oct-06, 09:31	Typically, Americans would be all about stopping this rogue nation from completing it's nuclear arsenal, but since the Iraq quagmire, it seems as if we've got our hands full. Most Americans realize this, and are hoping that another country can step up to the plate, because we don't have enough active duty to even think about an invasion. If there is a decision, we'd need a draft to complete it.
proginoskes 09-Oct-06, 09:35	we'd probably get our arse handed to us if we tried to invade N. Korea. we'd have nuke them.
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