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From	Message
zorroloco 11-Oct-06, 16:40	death penalty aye? or nay?
qiwi 11-Oct-06, 17:09	Nay...... Until we have a system that can guarentee the guilty verdict is accurate and not, as happened here in a famous case, the result of the police planting gun cartridges to get the result they wanted, then it is too risky.... Can you imagine anything more inhumane than strapping an innocent man onto a gurney and injecting him with a fatal cocktail of drugs for a crime he didn't commit....
eldude 11-Oct-06, 21:16	We had verdict as a vocab word.
captaingoodvibes 12-Oct-06, 00:21	definately..... a nay from me. For the reasons cited by qiwi and also death penalty serves no purpose and brutalises those involved.
saintinsanity 12-Oct-06, 00:56	Noway No, not norway, not nay with an ow in the middle. No way. Killing people is wrong.
echo3 12-Oct-06, 01:51	Yes, lex talens, with caveats. By arming elements of our internal security forces, people are from time to time killed, without trial, at the state's behest, we have therefore already tacitly accepted capital punishment. The most powerful argument (morally, legally, financially, justly) is the deterrent factor. The rates for unlawful killings in Britain have more than doubled since abolition of capital punishment in 1964 from 0.68 per 100,000 of the population to 1 .42 per 100,000. Clearly there is a deterrent factor to consider. BUT, it is only in those countries where execution is an absolute certainty that the death penalty is a deterrent. However, I think it could only be applicable to certain types of the most serious crimes. Perhaps not only, but including:- Raping of Children, Murder of children, Murder of members of the internal security forces in the line of duty, Mass murder (serial killing, terrorist bombing).
jaymar 12-Oct-06, 05:47	Nay.. ..although it would be aye if there was a guaranteed method of avoiding mistakes. Possibly at some future time when DNA and forensics are foolproof. Then we can start killing the b**tards. In the meantime, lock 'em up and throw away the key (and the tv remote).
alexwilson 12-Oct-06, 09:23	The death penalty is nothing that human beings, as failable creatures, should be tinkering with.
sirtgl 12-Oct-06, 10:35	Hmm... This is an interesting question. Most people seem to have quite clear views, positive or negative. I don't. Basically I think it is wrong to kill people. No matter what the reason. Well, killing in self defense is sometimes justified. But if someone close to me was murdered, I would definitely want to see the criminal suffer the same fate. Preferably in the most painful and slowest way possible. But that is the animal in me, and it wouldn't be a punishment. That would be a revenge. And I doubt I would feel any better after that. Every time a particularly nasty crime is committed, these discussions appear. And usually people are very much for death penalty. But I don't think there will ever be a day when someone is sentenced to be executed in my country. By the way, how long do the death row prisoners usually wait for the sentence? Years? 10 years? Even longer? Is it because there is so long line or because they just use every available way to appeal? This leads me to the question, how much does one death row prisoner cost to the society? After all, they are usually kept in maximum security prisons, which can't be the cheapest ones around. Another interesting question... If a majority of the people wanted to have a death penalty, the next question would be the best way to do it? Lethal injection US style? Rifle shot in the neck Chinese style? Electric chair? Hanging? Stoning? If you had to make a choice, what would it be?
jaymar 12-Oct-06, 11:09	sirtgl.. .. I think your response sums it up quite well. You are against execution but then again it might be justified (self defense). Killing someone would leave a bad taste in most peoples mouths. If doing so removed a dangerous person from the society, a person who might well commit the same crime again, well is that not justified? At some point does re-habilitation fail? I don't agree with people being held for years on death row. Then again do you not think that this is because the state/society is reluctant to make a decision?
echo3 12-Oct-06, 11:40	£448,000 is the price to the UK taxpayer for a 15 year prison spell. sirtgl is right, there is no point if things are drawn out with appeals. Singapore allow one appeal then it's done. remember, it's not about revenge, it's about deterrent. They always excecute, I read somewhere they had a big rise in murders there in 1998... it pushed up to a whole 7 murders in the whole year ;o I understand hanging is humane. ??!!??
qiwi 12-Oct-06, 13:33	Echo.... If capital punishment serves as a strong deterrent as you claim can you please explain why the homicide rate in the U.S is so astronomical???? Some might even argue that the fact that homicide rates in U.S. states that have the death penalty is nearly double that of the states that dont have the death penalty is a strong validation for the argument that the death penalty far from acting as a deterrent, actually encourages offenders to kill their victim. For example in Canada the homicide rate per 100,000 people fell from 3.09 in 1975, the year before the abolition of the death penalty, to 2.41 in 1980. It has steadily declined since then and in 2003 the rate was 1.73, 44% lower than in 1975. How does that one work Echo??? One thing is for sure, the rest of the world doesn't buy into your 'capital punishment works' idea. Since 1985 over 50 countries have abolished the death penalty.... The U.S along with China, Iran & Saudi Arabia carries out 94% of the executions carried out each year. China, where the preferred method is shooting & lethal injection, makes up the greatest proportion of these. Iran, (Stoning & Hanging) executes on average 94, Saudi Arabia (Beheading) executes 86 & the U.S. (Electrocution & lethal injection) kills on average 60 a year.
zorroloco 12-Oct-06, 13:57	research on deterrance The most recent survey of research findings on the relation between the death penalty and homicide rates, conducted for the United Nations in 1988 and updated in 2002, concluded: ". . .it is not prudent to accept the hypothesis that capital punishment deters murder to a marginally greater extent than does the threat and application of the supposedly lesser punishment of life imprisonment." (Reference: Roger Hood, The Death Penalty: A World-wide Perspective, Oxford, Clarendon Press, third edition, 2002, p. 230)
zorroloco 12-Oct-06, 14:00	on executing the innocent Since 1973, 123 prisoners have been released in the US after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. There were six such cases in 2004, two in 2005 and one so far in 2006. Some prisoners had come close to execution after spending many years under sentence of death. Recurring features in their cases include prosecutorial or police misconduct; the use of unreliable witness testimony, physical evidence, or confessions; and inadequate defence representation. Other US prisoners have gone to their deaths despite serious doubts over their guilt. The state of Florida has the highest number of exonerations: 22. The then Governor of the US state of Illinois, George Ryan, declared a moratorium on executions in January 2000. His decision followed the exoneration of the 13th death row prisoner found to have been wrongfully convicted in the state since the USA reinstated the death penalty in 1977. During the same period, 12 other Illinois prisoners had been executed. In January 2003 Governor Ryan pardoned four death row prisoners and commuted all 167 other death sentences in Illinois. from - web.amnesty.org" target="_blank">-> web.amnesty.org
echo3 12-Oct-06, 15:14	I don't want to argue guys.... I did say capital punishment for certain crimes only. All the evidence I have found supports the deterrent effect of capital punishment BUT "only in states where exceution is absolutely certain" One does have to be careful because pure numbers of executions compared year on year tied to number of murders per capita can be skewed if polulation changes are not properly factored in. Clearly the death row system in the states a real mess and doesn't work, no one would advocate any country having such a system, least of all me.
tugger 12-Oct-06, 15:33	i'd be up for the death penaly for kid killers like ian huntley... or, instead of actually killing them, lock them in a room and don't feed them... they'd die of dehydration in three or four days... why should decent people support the life of these <enter rude word here>...? yes, killing people is wrong, but tons of people die every day... by jailing the scum, we are supporting their lives... had we not jailed them, maybe one would've got hit by a bus the next day, or got stabbed themselves... i'd rather concern myself with those who die of starvation or war, i couldn't give a toss about kid killers... take them out of the equation... the world is overpopulated enough...
leo_london 12-Oct-06, 15:55	It is a difficult question. I have changed my mind several times over the course of my life. The problem here in the UK is that the prison sentences given for murder are usually far too lenient. I'm guessing, but the average time actually served in prison for murder is probably around 12 years...maybe less. If we introduced life sentences that really did mean incarceration until death then I would never even consider the question of restoring the death penalty. I agree with echo, we accept the state killing on our behalf, innocent women and children in Iraq ( sorry to bring that up ) for instance. That is not cold and calculated execution of course, it is no doubt unintentional, a mistake that is accepted as part of collateral damage. However, the end result is the same as sending an innocent man to his death... an innocent person killed by the state on our behalf. I am surprised that the murder rate has only just over doubled since 1964, it seems far more commonplace these days. More and more criminals are carrying guns, hardly a week goes by without a shooting, organised crime in Britain is now run by gangs from eastern Europe where the taking of life seems to be an easy option. If I could trust our judiciary, legal system and the police, I would be in favour of re-introducing the death penalty. Unfortunately, we cant completely trust those who bring the perpetrators to justice, nor those who administer our justice, so it remains a difficult question. Not wishing to sit on the fence, I would be in favour of the death penalty for the most hideous crimes. The fact that monsters who have commited some of the vilest acts imaginable are still breathing the same air as the rest of us just turns my stomach.
kingofpawns 12-Oct-06, 17:34	In the US... there are also "informal" executions that go on in the prison system. For example, it is widely known in the prison system that if you let certain types of prisoners into the general population, they will be killed by other prisoners. For example, the serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer was executed this way.
thumper 12-Oct-06, 17:48	When appropriate, 'execution' of criminals should be carried out at the scene and time of the crime by the intended victim or representative. This insures the correct person is 'executed' and the deterrance factor is maximized. As an additional benefit, the cost is minimal.
saintinsanity 12-Oct-06, 18:08	But then you have to have a trial afterward to make sure everything was on the level. For instance, I witness a man mugging an old lady. The old lady shoots the man dead. A passerby shoots the old lady for murder. The homeless guy strangles the passerby. I kill the homeless guy and then [BAM!] ARGH!!
softaire 12-Oct-06, 21:28	I like it... It's "Pawntificator Justice"... much better than Charles Bronson and "Death Wish" justice.
kingofpawns 12-Oct-06, 21:43	thumper... When I lived in chicago, a rober tried to execute me simply because I resisted (I sprayed the bastard in the face with mace before he could draw his gun, but unfortunately the cheap crap I had, had no effect). Fortunately, the piece of crap gun him and his friend had wouldn't fire when they shoved it in my face and pulled the trigger several times. Then they ran off after taking my nice leather coat. I admit, at that point, I would have had no problem shooting both of them if I had a gun. I waited a few seconds and ran after them to see if I could catch their licence plate, but I didn't see one on the back of their car. Anyway, suppose they had killed me, who would have executed them on the spot?
saintinsanity 12-Oct-06, 21:58	God everyone knows the thundery hand of God descends upon the unrighteous sinners who dare trample upon the....sigh. Yeah, that would have sucked, I'm glad you are still alive. Do you still carry mace? I don't think I could get mace if I tried. Maybe on the internet...
thumper 12-Oct-06, 23:12	KOP It sounds like they tried to kill you but were too inept. Suppose you had some good oleoresin capsicum (OC) spray instead of that cheap mace? How about a S&W .357 revolver? That was a gutsy but foolhardy move to try fighting off two strong armed robbers (attempted murderers) with inferior equipment and no training. You should get some training and you should also know what your equipment does BEFORE you use it in a crisis. I suggest you go buy some good 10% OC spray, go into your back yard and spray yourself in the face with it to see what it does. 8-) Note: Make sure you have a garden hose handy to rinse off as needed.
echo3 13-Oct-06, 01:04	QED ..... KOP, the self proclaimed saviour of the enemies of the USA wants to execute 2 Americans for stealing his $50 coat!!!!!!!!!! Maybe they were Al Qaeda KOP in which case they could have asked you nicely and you'd have given them the coat, your pants, the contents of your wallet, a lift home and a slap up tea in Mrs Miggins pie shop!!
saintinsanity 13-Oct-06, 03:02	Ha ha! Yes, it's funny because obviously KOP is on the side of the terrorists. Whereas echo would have lobbied to have them shave their beards so that they could be properly identified in the line up! Hee hee! Oh it's so fun. I sprayed myself in the face with pepper spray once to see what would happen. Basically my eyes wouldn't stop watering and it was hard to see, but I could have used the force to fight on if necessary.
water_lilly 13-Oct-06, 04:22	SC I'm a Social Contractarian, so I obviously see a justified execution as an amoral act, which is perfectly acceptable, then, if the execution serves the public interest. I do not, however, appreciate the current system. I say rework the current system, or do away with capital punishment (for now.) Not for ethical reasons, mind you, but for practical ones.
echo3 13-Oct-06, 07:44	Eh? Pawnie - You are funny mate, always, always, funny. water_lilly - What's a Social Contractarian and are they available in the UK?
kingofpawns 13-Oct-06, 09:43	thumper... That is what the police said: "That stuff you have won't work you should carry pepper spray like we have." I asked where I could get some and he said at a police supply store, so I bought half a dozen, but I never got to use them. Also, I didn't know there was a second guy until after a sprayed the first guy he tried to kill me. I suspect the second guy may have actually been good for me because he wanted to take off.
kingofpawns 13-Oct-06, 09:51	echo... I didn't want to execute them. At the moment of the act of robbery I could have. They were never caught but they probably either ended up in prison or killed on the street. The coat was a $400 coat, but it was insured, so I didn't lose anything. Echo, since I see you are taking liberties with the truth, I just refer to an old supporter of the IRA.
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