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From	Message
echo3 24-Oct-06, 13:35	IQ Minimum for Electoral voting rights I think democracies should set a minimum IQ level for voters. Any thoughts on whether this is one of my fascist whims or does it make sense?
bobbynox 24-Oct-06, 14:16	Deleted by bobbynox on 23-Jan-07, 09:01.
tugger 24-Oct-06, 14:26	yes, a minimum iq for standing for election would be a very good idea... we'd soon see the back of bush...! as for voters, i'm not so sure... just because you and me and the rest of this club are smarter than average, it does not mean we should have any more of a say than the average joe... for example, i'm smart in terms of iq (134 highest yet...), but we all know my political opinions can be skewed... a thicker person might be more clued up than i am about current affairs and politics... so why should i get the vote but not someone of, say, 90 iq but totally aware of what's going on and all that...?
zorroloco 24-Oct-06, 14:41	it sounds reasonable and it is tempting as all hell! but, it can easily be misused to bar many people the vote. who decides what iq makes one an eligible voter? what iq test do we use...most are culturally skewed to favor middle class, white americans. danger...this is dangerous argument...but tempting....very tempting....
leo_london 24-Oct-06, 14:45	echo.. I dont see the normal IQ tests being of much use if thats what you mean. There are members of MENSA who may have little knowledge of world affairs and history. Take this unsolvable question, its supposed to be a cryptogram of a well-known phrase... AFFDXVXAAAGXXDF XXFGGAFAGGXFG AAXAAXXFXXFFFGG AFXGGVGGAFFAAFG VGGAXFXGXXFFAAF XDFFFAVFDXFDDXF More than 60,000 people have taken a shot at this question online, but the only people who know the answer are the two friends - Nathan Haselbauer and Mike Dickheiser - who devised the test. (Any 'answers' that you may find online are, they say, incorrect.) However, I do agree with you in principle echo. When you look around at some of the people who are eligible to vote it makes you wonder why we bother.
leo_london 24-Oct-06, 14:53	" most are culturally skewed to favor middle class, white americans. " I should bloody well hope so too...oops..sorry.
zorroloco 24-Oct-06, 14:57	Leo how do you mean? should they be culturally biased against african americans? mexican americans? poor people?
bobbynox 24-Oct-06, 14:58	Deleted by bobbynox on 23-Jan-07, 09:01.
kingofpawns 24-Oct-06, 15:19	No IQ tests... The reason is simple. People are elected in a democracy to represent ALL the people. Even morons, if they are capable of voting, should vote.
leo_london 24-Oct-06, 15:24	Jeff.. " how do you mean? should they be culturally biased against african americans? mexican americans? poor people? " Well, I was only joking. But, thinking about it, how could questions be biased against any particlar race or economic group ? They could be biased in favour of any citizen born in the USA..if I became an American citizen it would take me a long time to catch up on American political/social history. Surely everyone born in the USA has the same opportunities to acquire knowledge..whether they take those opportunities is a different matter.
soulcrates 24-Oct-06, 15:30	Perhaps we should force only those with a high school education or equivalent would be allowed to vote. I mean, it is the duty of the nation to teach it's youth, so who would be to blame when they've become ignorant?
alexwilson 24-Oct-06, 16:27	I am for universal sufferage. Ex-felons should vote. Everyone should vote. It lends stability to government to let everyone be heard. What business does the State have deciding that a citizen can't vote? That is B.S. Everything else is a bad idea.
echo3 24-Oct-06, 18:09	Very interesting range of views guys.... ... my thoughts are that an IQ test should be taken (obviously by definition it should be a measure of IQ not knowledge/experience) by everyone who wants to be on the electoral roll. The test will establish that the voter has sufficient intelligence to be able to understand the political manifestos on which the various parties are fighting the election. (Whether the voter actually chooses to STUDY the manifestos is outside the remit of anyone, but at least we can establish the ABILITY to study and understand the manifestos in the first place). When I was a kid (in the late 1960's) I saw a guy being interviewed on TV at election time. He was asked who he'd be voting for. His response? "Well mate, I'll be voting for the bloke what puts the most money in my back pocket". It may be a fair and equitable system to have every tom, dick and thicko eligible to vote but how can it be sensible?
proginoskes 24-Oct-06, 18:39	might be better to allow people who actually have a real stake in government to vote - land-holding males
bobbynox 24-Oct-06, 19:02	Deleted by bobbynox on 23-Jan-07, 09:01.
kingofpawns 24-Oct-06, 21:22	So... echo... a person say with an IQ of 80 or less who holds a job is effectively not a citizen?
soulcrates 24-Oct-06, 21:56	I think a GED should be the minimum. That way it pushes any immigrants who wish to participate in American politics, would have to learn our history, language, some math, and even sexual and physical education. If you want to vote, you've got to show that you have the ability to ingest, and retain information, and use reasoning skills when making a vote.
echo3 25-Oct-06, 01:26	JDH/ bobby / KOP / Soul JDH That's what the Shanghai Municipal Council did in the late 19th century. Sadly all this does is ensure an electorate with vested interest. Money and/or ownership are not measures of intelligence, so I don't see this idea as a step forward, more a recipe for public unrest! Bobby Everyone has vested interest surely? Its the diversity of vested interest that makes an effective electorate, I don't see this as an improvement on the present system. KOP Everyone is a citizen and able to benefit from the system. However only those with the intelligence to understand the issues facing the system get to vote. Soul I think the education and social inclusion of immigrants is another issue altogether. I'd agree that immigrants should have to be here for a given time before being eligible to vote. I'm not sure whetehr that's tha case or not, do you know? But those with sufficent IQ will be able to ingest, retain info and use reasoning skills as per your requirement.
soulcrates 25-Oct-06, 01:33	Echo3 It's widely known that I.Q. tests are environmentally biased. Perhaps just having basic knowledge of certain subjects is a better way. Just have them take a test, like for driving, but for voting. If you cannot describe what the Emancipation Proclamation did, or who the first president was, then you cannot vote on who the next president will be. This is because it would be too easy to sway votes by buying more air time, and more campaigning. For those without proper knowledge on all subjects, and purpose of documents like the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and the U.S. Constitution. The goal is for the people to run this country for themselves, but without proper education, how can we assure that the majority will make the right decision?
sirtgl 25-Oct-06, 02:20	Echo has a point there. But I would not go as far as requiring a sufficient IQ from the voters. I think it would be better if the candidates had some IQ requirement. It often seems that even the highest posts in politics are run by people who don't seem to have a full understanding in what's going on. They are the ones who really run everything, shouldn't they be the smart ones?
echo3 25-Oct-06, 03:30	Soul / Sirtgl Soul I think you and I are broadly in agreement. As usual the devil is in the detail. I reckon we are close to cracking the first stage where we agree that there should be some measure of suitability for voting IN PRINICIPLE. The next step would be to work out the best method for measurement. Sirtgl Why not have both? I certainly agree that a minimum IQ requirement for candidates is sensible. But I'd ask what's the point in having good politicians if they are elected by a majority of idiots (for want of a better word)? Its like the principles of hi-fi. "Rubbish in = Rubbish out". No point having the best pair of speakers on the planet when the front end is a cheap car radio!!!!!
zorroloco 25-Oct-06, 05:00	chess maybe only those who play chess should be allowed to vote? you know, let the inmates run the asylum!

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