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proginoskes 03-Dec-06, 07:28	In U.S., fear and distrust of Muslims runs deep By Bernd Debusmann, Special Correspondent WASHINGTON (Reuters)- When radio host Jerry Klein suggested that all Muslims in the United States should be identified with a crescent-shape tattoo or a distinctive arm band, the phone lines jammed instantly. The first caller to the station in Washington said that Klein must be "off his rocker." The second congratulated him and added: "Not only do you tattoo them in the middle of their forehead but you ship them out of this country ... they are here to kill us." Another said that tattoos, armbands and other identifying markers such as crescent marks on driver's licenses, passports and birth certificates did not go far enough. "What good is identifying them?" he asked. "You have to set up encampments like during World War Two with the Japanese and Germans." At the end of the one-hour show, rich with arguments on why visual identification of "the threat in our midst" would alleviate the public's fears, Klein revealed that he had staged a hoax. It drew out reactions that are not uncommon in post-9/11 America. "I can't believe any of you are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything I said," he told his audience on the AM station 630 WMAL (www.wmal.com)" target="_blank">-> www.wmal.com, which covers Washington, Northern Virginia and Maryland "For me to suggest to tattoo marks on people's bodies, have them wear armbands, put a crescent moon on their driver's license on their passport or birth certificate is disgusting. It's beyond disgusting. "Because basically what you just did was show me how the German people allowed what happened to the Jews to happen ... We need to separate them, we need to tattoo their arms, we need to make them wear the yellow Star of David, we need to put them in concentration camps, we basically just need to kill them all because they are dangerous." The show aired on November 26, the Sunday after the Thanksgiving holiday, and Klein said in an interview afterwards he had been surprised by the response. "The switchboard went from empty to totally jammed within minutes," said Klein. "There were plenty of callers angry with me, but there were plenty who agreed." POLLS SHOW WIDESPREAD ANTI-MUSLIM SENTIMENT Those in agreement are not a fringe minority: A Gallup poll this summer of more than 1,000 Americans showed that 39 percent were in favor of requiring Muslims in the United States, including American citizens, to carry special identification. Roughly a quarter of those polled said they would not want to live next door to a Muslim and a third thought that Muslims in the United States sympathized with al Qaeda, the extremist group behind the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington. A poll carried out by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), an advocacy group, found that for one in three Americans, the word Islam triggers negative connotations such as "war," "hatred" and "terrorist." The war in Iraq has contributed to such perceptions. Klein's show followed a week of heated discussions on talk radio, including his own, and online forums over an incident on November 22 involving six Muslim clerics. They were handcuffed and taken off a US Airways flight after passengers reported "suspicious behavior" that included praying in the departure gate area. The clerics, on their way to a meeting of the North American Imams Federation, were detained in a holding cell, questioned by police and FBI agents, and released. Muslim community leaders saw the inciden t as yet more evidence of anti-Muslim prejudice. IGNORANCE SEEN AS KEY PROBLEM Several American Muslims interviewed on the subject of prejudice over the past few weeks said ignorance was at the core of the problem. "The level of knowledge is very, very low," said Mohamed Esa, a U.S. Muslim of Arab descent who teaches a course on Islam at McDaniel College in Maryland. "There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world and some people think they are all terrorists." Hossam Ahmed, a retired Air Force Reserve colonel who occasionally leads prayer meetings for the small Muslim congregation at the Pentagon, agreed. "Ignorance is the number one problem. Education is of the essence." There are no hard figures on how many Muslims have been subject to harassment or prejudice and community leaders say that ugly incidents can prompt spontaneous expressions of support. Such as the e- mail a Minneapolis woman sent to CAIR after the imams were taken off their flight. "I would like to ... help," the e-mail said. "While I cannot offer plane tickets, I would be happy to drive at least 2 or 3 of them. My car is small, but at least some of our hearts in this land of the free are large." And optimists saw signs of change in the November 4 election of the first Muslim to the U.S. House of Representatives, which has 435 members. Democrat Keith Ellison, a 43-year-old African-American lawyer, did not stress his religion during his campaign for a Minnesota seat, but said his victory would "signal to people who are not Muslims that Muslims have a lot to offer to the United States and the improvement of our country." type=inDepthNews&storyID=2006-12-01T142541Z_01_N30158201_RTRUKOC_0_US-USA-MUSLIMS- FEAR.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=?=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage3" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" class=ext>today.reuters.com" target="_blank">-> today.reuters.com
zorroloco 03-Dec-06, 09:13	sadly, not surprising....by and large, we are an ignorant lot... Simpsons 'trump' First Amendment Americans know more about The Simpsons TV show than the US Constitution's First Amendment, an opinion poll says. Only one in four could name more than one of the five freedoms it upholds but more than half could name at least two members of the cartoon family. About one in five thought the right to own a pet was one of the freedoms. A new museum dedicated to the First Amendment said the findings showed there was a pressing need to explain one of America's basic laws better. "We have our job cut out for us," said Joe Madeira, director of exhibitions at the McCormick Tribune Freedom Museum. Another finding from the poll, a telephone survey of 1,000 random adults with an error margin of 3%, was that 22% of Americans could name all five Simpson characters. By comparison, just one in 1,000 people could name all five First Amendment freedoms. The names of American Idol TV show judges and popular advertising slogans also proved more memorable than the five freedoms - speech, religion, press, assembly and petition for redress of grievances. news.bbc.co.uk" target="_blank">-> news.bbc.co.uk
jaymar 03-Dec-06, 12:01	This.. ..is a really poor example and a poor "experiment". Comparing anything to how the Nazis treated the jews just does not work. First the jews didn't do anything. The Nazis had this mad idea of how things should be and the jews did not fit the bill. Like the homosexuals, the catholics, the gypsies etc. The Nazis attempted to wipe them all out. Why? They were not Aryans and did not fit Hitlers plan or idea of how the world works. How many Jews were suicide bombing in Germany pre-war? How many Jews were preaching religious hatred in Germany pre-war? How many Jews were actively looking to undermine the German society they lived in pre-war? Now replace "Jews" with muslims and "Germany" with the UK. Different results. Different story.Different outcome. Radical Islam is a scourge on our society and will be until we root all the fanatics out. Nothing to do with the jews or the Nazis.
leo_london 03-Dec-06, 17:40	When the Netherlands, widely accepted to have been the most tolerant/liberal nation in Europe, finds that their large Muslim population is a cause for concern, its time to sit up and take notice. Again, as in Britain, it is the second or maybe even third generation immigrants that are turning to the more extremist brand of Islam. The indigenous population, who welcomed immigration and promoted personal freedom, now find the liberal views and laws of which they were once proud are under threat from the very people they hoped to help...ironic and sad.
soulcrates 03-Dec-06, 18:33	Jaymar, you can easily say that Nazis were the problem, and not the Jews, but how do you explain this? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< VOLTAIRE (Francois Marie Arouet) 18th century French philosopher, writer: "Why are the Jews hated? It is the inevitable result of their laws; they either have to conquer everybody or be hated by the whole human race..." "The Jewish nation dares to display an irreconcilable hatred toward all nations, and revolts against all masters; always superstitious, always greedy for the well-being enjoyed by others, always barbarous - cringing in misfortune and insolent in prosperity." (Essai sur le Moeurs) "You seem to me to be the maddest of the lot. The Kaffirs, the Hottentots, and the Negroes of Guinea are much more reasonable and more honest people than your ancestors, the Jews. You have surpassed all nations in impertinent fables in bad conduct and in barbarism. You deserve to be punished, for this is your destiny." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I see is that you can blame the Nazis, but who do you blame in the 1700's? Not to mention the Catholic church has created more injustice and genocide on Earth than Islam, but where is your anti-Catholic stance? Why isolate the Muslims, unless you're just upset with your lack of knowledge about Islam.
jaymar 04-Dec-06, 06:50	So.. ..you are defending the Nazis and saying the Jews deserved it? That is there lot? Their destiny? If I was you I would be very careful about what I post. Crap like that doesn't come well out of the mouth of a muslim. As far as I know its not Catholic fundamentalists who are setting bombs off all over the world. Its Islamic extremists. Like you. Understanding of any religion is not a pre- requisite when exponents of that religion prefer to use violence rather than dialogue to get their point across. Of course whilst ever those extremists have apologists in their ranks, like you, they will keep on murdering people. I for one am very suspicious of your motives.
leo_london 04-Dec-06, 07:31	jaymar..I think soul is just giving examples of how the Jews were persecuted for hundreds of years before the Nazis. However, comparing that to the current situation regarding Muslims is disingenuous. The Jews were scattered throughout Europe without a homeland, they were not allowed to own property in many countries ( which forced them to go into usery, money lending and then banking..making them even more unpopular ) and became the victims of persecution in virtually every country you could name. As far as I know, the Jews had no ambitions to change the laws and traditions of the different countries in which they lived unlike the Muslim extremists of today. In Britain today, much of the resentment against Muslims ( leaving aside terrorism ) is caused by the crazy " politically correct " attitude of local authorities and the government. We have bent over backwards not to offend our guests, in print or in the media.. even long standing Christian traditions have been abandoned or changed lest we upset some minority group. To be fair, its not mainstream Muslims who insist on these measures, its the looney fringe of British God-haters, tradition-haters and good old fashioned fun-haters.
soulcrates 04-Dec-06, 09:53	like you, they will keep on murdering people Jaymar, that's libel. You're getting a report on that if you don't delete it within 24 hours. If you cannot see that I QUOTED VOLTAIRE that makes you an idiot. Not makes me a murderer. DELETE THAT POST BEFORE I GET HOME TONIGHT, OR IT IS REPORTED FOR LIBEL.
soulcrates 04-Dec-06, 09:55	That is your warning. It's what I do, I warn people. If you project your anger onto me again Jaymar in this type of immature beligerant lies, then we'll need to remove your stupidity from the club. LIBEL is against the law. DELETE IT.
proginoskes 04-Dec-06, 10:17	soul look at the contruction of the sentence and thought. Jaymar did not say you were a murderer - he said you were an "muslim extremist" and "apoligist" for muslim extremism. it was an opinion, not libel. the type of reaction you display about one insult is extreme. perhaps it is this type of reaction that has other muslims deciding to blow things up?
zorroloco 04-Dec-06, 11:05	soul jd is right. there is no libel here...just an opinion about how extremist you are. really, it was not any worse than the quote you posted from voltaire that seemed to blame the jews for the anti-semitism that was so rampant. relax. argue with data and logic, not threats.
jaymar 04-Dec-06, 11:15	Soul.. ..you are just looking for a fight. You seem to be a very immature person, I may be wrong, who does not like to hear other peoples points of view. You can delete anything you like old son. However I feel I am perfectly justified in questioning the motives of a moderator who is an apologist for suicide bombers and who appears to condone the persecution of the jews by the Nazis. Its history. People who deny the holocaust get sent to jail in Germany. "Its what I do,I warn people". Perhaps you have a little too much responsibility.
proginoskes 04-Dec-06, 13:12	soul you can settle this once and for all by *unequivocally condeming* the terrorist activities of extreme muslims . . .
soulcrates 04-Dec-06, 13:52	Ok, we'll let Gameknot decide. If nobody is going to stop someone from calling me a murderer, then I will have to do it with the help of Gameknot. jaymar, "like you, they will keep on murdering people."
soulcrates 04-Dec-06, 13:52	How is that quote not calling me a murderer?
soulcrates 04-Dec-06, 14:03	If you think I was justifying the holocaust, or that I don't believe that it happened you're wrong, jaymar. I am merely pointing out that it was not isolated with the Nazis, and your bringing up that Muslims deserve a holocaust, by saying the Jews didn't act like them, is obviously an uneducated point of view, that I don't deny you the opportunity to have, but also don't deny our opportunity to stop you from spreading your hatred in a subject in which you have no knowledge. The Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians, does that make me a slave owner, because I know it? Where you call me a murderer, because I quoted someone 200 years before Hitler proving the hatred of Jews is not just Nazi, doesn't make me anti-semitic, but knowledgable. If you cannot see the difference now, it will be made clear soon.
soulcrates 04-Dec-06, 14:05	Jay, your argument involved the idea that Jews were completely innocent this may be true, but then why were people oppressing them for centuries? That is what my question is, not whether or not they deserve to die, just why they were dying.
zorroloco 04-Dec-06, 14:07	soul re it carefully. it says, <those extremists have apologists in their ranks, like you, they will keep on murdering people.> he is calling you an apologist, not a murderer!
soulcrates 04-Dec-06, 14:13	Putting my name so closely to being a murderer, by saying that I condone suicide bombings, is unacceptable. Labeling me a justifier of the holocaust is also, not true. Jumping to such conclusions is what starts wars, and should not be readily accepted in times such as these. Instigation is getting out of hand, and when my name is brought up as an apologizer, or a terrorist sympathizer really creates unnecessary tension to the club.
jaymar 04-Dec-06, 14:18	First of.. ..all don't call me jay. We aren't friends and never will be. Talking to you is worse than pulling teeth. It feels like dropping into Dantes inferno. The pit of despair. Your views are anti semitic and you are wriggling because your prejudice has been exposed. I am not interested in discussing the merits of why or why not jews may have been persecuted through the ages. You have taken phrases out of context and twisted them for your own devices. In fact I find your thought processes to be absurd. You leap about like a spawning salmon. You refuse to condemn terrorism, even though you have been given the opportunity and instead look for self justification. I would get more sense talking to my dogs.
zorroloco 04-Dec-06, 14:21	soul when you post something that seems to blame the jews for the holocaust, and state that <What I see is that you can blame the Nazis, but who do you blame in the 1700's?>...you must understand that that is the kind of statement that can easily lead to someone seeing you as a an anti-semite. i happen to think jay was/is being a bit reactionary and inflammatory...but, hey...a little tension in the club is a good thing...
jaymar 04-Dec-06, 14:22	I note.. ..that you keep waffling on about "the club". In fact on a number of occasions you have set yourself up as some sort of defender of "the club". You are a moderator, not God almighty. What you really want to do is silence me and anyone else who argues with you. You would like to remove all dissenting voices from "the club". I suggest you find a mirror and do some serious "soul" searching.
bobbynox 04-Dec-06, 14:25	<Of course whilst ever those extremists have apologists in their ranks, like you, they will keep on murdering people.> If nothing else, it is poorly written. The sentence has three clauses a) the main-clause: "they will keep on murdering people.", b) the adverb-clause: "...Whilst ever those extremists have apologists in their ranks," and c) "like you." Now, joining the three clauses is tricky. If Jay choose to place Soul in the class of people who are apologists he should have place the "Like you" after the word apologists, so as not to have any confusion. If he wanted to place Soul in the group of murderers, then he should have placed the "Like you" in the middle of the sentence immediately following "extremists". So, really, what we have is a confusing sentence. The commas don't help matters as they are used to join the clauses in a fashion to identify Soul in one or both groups. If Jay wanted to express Soul as an apologists, then better: "Of course whilst ever those extremists have apologists, like you, in their ranks, they will keep on murdering people. Or if Jay wanted to express Soul as a murderer, then better: "Of course whilst ever those extremists, like you, have apologists in their ranks, they will keep on murdering people. More?
soulcrates 04-Dec-06, 14:26	Jdh, Obviously with Jaymar's thoughts on the subject, it's not just in the U.S. that distrust of muslims is prevalent, since he's from the U.K. I will take it as being from the London bombings, which obviously would make anyone want vengeance on the group responsible. It's too bad that isn't happening. The U.S. place blame directly on Al-Queda, and then started a war against the Bath party in Iraq. The U.K. now has troops there as well, forgetting completely about the Al-Queda, but not knowing why. Just placing blame on the rest of the 1.2 billion muslims on Earth. This is almost exactly what happened during WWII with the Nazis, where all of them were blamed for the economic depression that hit Germany in the 20's and 30's. They weren't all land owners, or banks that loaned to people, but they were all treated as guilty by the masses. This is how the western world is viewing Islam today. Is my buddy from Tunisia, who works two jobs to send home 70% of his money to his mother, for her medicine and rent, a terrorist, because he's a muslim? That's not far from the treatment of the Jews during the holocaust, and with people defending their rights, why aren't they defending the Muslims? The typical argument is that Islam is trying to oppress everyone by forcing their beliefs on them, but they forget about the entire global imperialist regime set up by Eurpean powers onto the world? Then when the wars start up, and the genocide begins, these same European powers are nowhere to be held accountable? How is that not oppressing the world with your own beliefs? It's happening in a 2 way street, but the people driving down one side are ignorant to it, and solely blame the others.
soulcrates 04-Dec-06, 14:30	Then you should spend more time talking to your dogs jaymar, because that's about the extent of your knowledge. You don't know a thing about Islam, and the people you're vilifying with your stupidity. Good day, to everyone else of course.
jaymar 04-Dec-06, 14:32	Thanks.. bobby. I rattled it off a bit quick and should have realised it was ambiguous. He's an apologist as displayed once again by his latest waffle. Why is it that as soon as anyone condemns muslim extremists they are accused of attacking all Islam. Its a trick and a distraction and it just does not wash.
bobbynox 04-Dec-06, 14:34	Testing Soul's extremism. Answer the following questions: 1) Are you an extremist? 2) Do you wish death upon all non-believers? 3) Have you walked the path of rightiousness in the brotherhood of Allah (bismala(sp?), and denounce all state-govt.? 4) Do you wish upon you neighbor, be he Christian, Jew, or Episcopal: Conversion-or-Death? That should suffice.
soulcrates 04-Dec-06, 14:36	"Radical Islam is a scourge on our society and will be until we root all the fanatics out." - Jaymar This non-specific statement is no different than anti-semites hate speech against the Jews, like Voltaire. Again, not me, but Marie Arouet a.k.a. Voltaire 18th century. My quoting him only shows that they too have enemies, just as muslims do, but both deserve to not be killed, and calling people a scourge is reminiscent of Nazi propaganda.
soulcrates 04-Dec-06, 14:43	Bobby to answer your questions: 1) Are you an extremist? No, but I have been called worse. 2) Do you wish death upon all non-believers? No. "Try not, do or do not, there is no try." Since I haven't been involved with the death of non-believers, either by personal actions, or hate speech instigating violenve, or any other correlation to violence towards people of any race, creed, religion, whether Muslim, Mormon, Opis Dae, Catholic, Lutheran, Buddhist, etc. 3) Have you walked the path of rightiousness in the brotherhood of Allah (bismala(sp?), and denounce all state-govt.? I guess that I have denounced unruly authority over man, and limitation of their actions, slavery, etc. I only denounce oligarchy, and USA is leaning in that direction lately, but I haven't denounced all state-gov, so no. 4) Do you wish upon you neighbor, be he Christian, Jew, or Episcopal: Conversion-or-Death? No, I only wish that people treat each other with respect, and dignity. When millions of people are starving to death, I don't think that is happening, and the point is to figure out why, and stop it. I don't judge people upon religion, but upon their actions towards their fellow humans.
bobbynox 04-Dec-06, 14:43	The real scourge is the politically-correct speech that was borne out of the leftist marxism which allowed minority groups to go around the law and not assymilate(sp?). These groups then wonder why they don't fit in to the main society and society fears them. Year-after-year they grow further from the core values of a 'norm' and begin to be marginalized. After a decade or so, the main population 'blames' them for economic-ills, disease, and stealing of the women. So, lines are drawn and the courts cannot handle the politically-correct verbiage, people are indescriminately rounded-up, cars are torched, etc. What a world.
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