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captaingoodvibes 25-Jun-09, 04:00	the 1953 Iranian coup "they hate our freedom"..... Background behind Iranian sentiment to the US and UK en.wikipedia.org The 1953 Iranian coup d’état deposed the democratically-elected government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq.[1][2][3] Several years earlier, Mossaddeq, backed by his nationalist supporters in the Iranian parliament, had angered Britain with his argument that Iran should begin profiting from its vast oil reserves instead of allowing profits to continue to flow to Britain through its control of Iran's oil industry. In 1951, Mossaddeq nationalised Iran's oil industry which had been controlled exclusively by the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company,[4][5] the UK's largest single investment overseas.[6] The ejection of Western oil companies from their Iranian refineries triggered the Abadan Crisis and nearly caused a war. Britain accused Mosaddeq of violating the legal rights of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company and mobilized a worldwide boycott of Iran's oil that plunged Iran into financial crisis. The British government tried to enlist the United States in planning a coup, but President Harry S. Truman refused. However, his successor Dwight D. Eisenhower allowed the CIA to embark on its first covert operation against a foreign government.[7] The British and U.S. spy agencies replaced the government of the popular Prime Minister Mosaddeq with an all-powerful monarch, Mohammed Reza Pahlevi who ruled for the next 26 years until he was overthrown in 1979.[8] The economic and political crisis in Iran that began in early 1952 with the British-organized world-wide boycott of Iranian oil, ended with the signing of the Consortium Agreement of 1954. Pahlevi signed the agreement with the result that, for the first time, United States oil companies shared in the profits of Iranian oil, with the U.S. and UK evenly splitting 80% and the remainder divided between French and Dutch interests.[9] From Iran's perspective, the Consortium Agreement of 1954 was much more unfavorable than conditions set forth several months earlier in the joint 'Winston Churchill-Dwight D. Eisenhower' proposal to Mosaddegh.[10][11][12] The Consortium Agreement of 1954 ended the crisis that led to the coup, and stayed in effect until it was modified in 1973 and then ended in 1979 when the Iranian Revolution deposed the monarch. For the 25 years it was in effect, the 1954 Consortium Agreement had determined which oil companies controlled Iranian oil and profited from it. US support and funding continued after the coup, with the CIA training the Shah's feared and hated secret police, SAVAK. Originally, the Eisenhower Administration considered Operation Ajax a successful secret war, but, given its blowback, it is now considered a failure, because of its "haunting and terrible legacy".[13] The anti-democratic coup d’état was a "a critical event in post-war world history" that replaced Iran’s post-monarchic, native, and secular parliamentary democracy with a dictatorship.[14] The coup is widely believed to have significantly contributed to the 1979 Iranian Revolution, which deposed the Shah and replaced the pro-Western monarchy with the anti-Western Islamic Republic of Iran.[15]
softaire 25-Jun-09, 10:57	Thanks Mark. It is extremely interesting to get bits and pieces of history and try to fit it together into larger pictures of what happened, when, and why. I wish there were some way to get the entire picture, unbiased, but that seems unlikely. While reading this I thought of the recent turmoil in Iran. There are many there that are supporting Amadinejanh and the Mullahs while at the same time there appear to be many supporting the West and individual freedoms, just as I image there were people who did and did not support the Shah. And, so it goes, with Iraq being another example where many did support Saddam but many, of course, did not while fearing the hated brothers. Even if we were able to go back in time and live through events, we would see events through a slanted or biased viewpoint, depending on who we lived with, our environment, how we interacted with the government, our "station" in life etc.
housecat 26-Jun-09, 16:06	Mark Great post! Suggest reading "All the Shah's Men" by Kinser for anyone with interest, which besides Softy, seems to be no one. Typical.
captaingoodvibes 27-Jun-09, 00:05	softie...sorry my net connection is throttled until next month and my subsequent posts didnt load. I've only posted a PART of the wiki article but the totality of it states that the CIA British collusion in the overthrow is now documented history and NOT subject to interpretation. It's believed to have been a tipping point in unanticipated consequences of covert UK /US intervention in sovereign nations (last century anyways). Of course the UK did very well for decades in extracting oil from Iran with the Iranians seeing little to nothing of the payments reasonably due. I do of course support your overall statement that much of history is open to interpretation. I posted it due to the current Iranian claims of "foreign intervention". Whilst it may well be fantasy NOW there IS a historical reason why they would have extreme distrust of US and UK.
anomalocaris 27-Jun-09, 13:10	Mark does the average Iranian have knowledge of this? Something that happened before they were born? We have reason to distrust them as well. I guess as long as there are people like you around to remind everyone how evil everyone is no one will trust anyone. There are plenty of you around. Just another evil America post. 1953 is long gone.
zorroloco 27-Jun-09, 14:52	stinky do you remember the revolutionary war? vietnam? do we still have an embargo against cuba? yes. the average iranian is well aware of the coup we engineered in 1953 - and they do not need mark to remind them of this. i suggest you read the graphic novel 'persepolis.' or see the movie. geez! do you think everyone in the orld is as short sighted and ignorant as the average fox viewer?
softaire 27-Jun-09, 15:08	jeff Your continual belittling and debasement of whole classes of people is in itself stunningly short sighted and ignorant, plus insulting.
anomalocaris 27-Jun-09, 15:41	Jeff Thats not even the point! I remember all those events, actually I don't remember any of them as I wasn't alive but I have heard about them. The POINT is I don't have any distrust for the British or the Vietnamese because of problems that occurred before I was born. For real changes to occur people must be willing to move on.
captaingoodvibes 27-Jun-09, 21:52	stinky....whilst by no means perfect the best predictor we have of current behaviour is past behaviour You and DOK were fond of bleating in the past about how the iranians were full of hatred and could not be reasoned with as if their behavior and beliefs emerged in a vacuum. This is important political and historical background to understanding events that continue to play out today.
anomalocaris 27-Jun-09, 22:55	The Iranians hatred isn't in the past. I specifically remember writing about the Iranians your talking about. It was a gathering of about 10,000 Iranians chanting death to America. At the time I wrote it, it was the present. You want to bring up a thread from over a year ago?? to support the starting of this thread. I never said anything about their beliefs emerging from a vacuum. Still stick with my original thought. The past (almost 60 years ago) must be forgiven. I don't think most Iranians hold these thoughts in their head from the coup your talking about. Most likely children learning from their parents or other peers to simply hate America, probably not understanding why in most cases other than the fact America is a christian nation. Mark while I do feel it is probably an important part of history and I would not want to strike it from the books, more current issues would have greater influence on peace in the Middle East over the 60 year old coup you speak of. JMO
qiwi 27-Jun-09, 23:41	In my opinion unless we make an effort to understand some of the history of countries like Iran we will never be able to find any common ground. One thing is for sure, the stance that was taken by the previous U.S. administration, whereby entire countries were labeled as "evil", was extremely unhelpful, some might say downright ignorant. I do know that outside influences have played a major role in Iran's recent history.... and not necessarily for the good of the country either...... I remember travelling through Iran in 1972, when the Shah was in power, and although at that time I knew very little about the politics of the country I could sense something was not quite right even then...... I had come via India, Pakistan and Afghanistan and was fascinated with the various cultures and lifestyles I encountered..... Then I crossed into Iran. To put it mildly, I was gobsmacked.... suddenly there were young women in mini-skirts everywhere..... Not that I was offended or anything but it just seemed so out of whack with what I had encountered up to that point...... Clearly it was all a bit much for a country like Iran at that time and I can only assume it was for this reason that Iran swung back to a more fundamentalist approach..... But hey, with 70% of Iran's population under the age of 25 maybe the time is right to re-introduce the mini-skirt....
captaingoodvibes 28-Jun-09, 02:42	Deleted by captaingoodvibes on 28-Jun-09, 02:59.
housecat 01-Jul-09, 16:08	stinky methinks you are saying history is irrellevant. More's the pity if the majority of people here agree with you.
anomalocaris 01-Jul-09, 16:31	House Your missing the point. It has nothing to do with the fact that history is relevant or irrelevant. In the real world how can we apply this information? History is in fact history. I am saying all a person can do or a country is be helpful and positive. Blaming the current distrust of America on something that happened in the 50's is not relevant. Iran in this situation is simply trying to pin a rigged election on the intervention of others and take the blame from themselves. It has nothing to do with a 60 year old problem. It's simply evil people putting the blame on someone other than themselves. We are not talking about a U.S./Iran peace treaty. A problem between Iran and America from the past has nothing to do with this election. The leaders from both countries weren't even born when this occurred its an old issue and its apples and oranges when compared to how its being applied in this thread for the purpose of dirty a election.
housecat 02-Jul-09, 19:00	stinky wasn't talking about the election...rather why Iranians distrust the U.S. <<It's simply evil people putting the blame on someone other than themselves.>> That's rich, bro!
anomalocaris 02-Jul-09, 19:28	Thats A great way to quote someone. It almost sounds as if I am calling the Iranian people evil. Just evil in general because I feel Iranians are just evil. Good thing my whole post is still there. If anyone reads that and interprets to mean something untrue we can discuss that too. If you feel the current leaders of Iran are good people that's your opinion. To say Iranians distrust America is a broad statement. Do they? I haven't talked to many but I did talk to one not long ago. He told me we love America, we have 10% of the people controlling the other 90%. So to say Iranians distrust America is very vague at best. Americans distrust the American government. Point is, what is the point? What can be done about something 60 years old? We bombed Japan during a war, we had a war with Vietnam, the north and the south fought each other, there was Hitler, and Korea and Mexico. America along with many other countries has had wars and issues with many other countries, its the nature of the world and life. If they distrust the U.S. 60 years later because of this I would say nothing much can be done about it. You can't undo it.
housecat 03-Jul-09, 11:04	stinky ok, let's fast-forward to day. The US and "the coallition of the willing" (LOL) have troops occupying countries bordering on both sides of you. What would you do?
anomalocaris 03-Jul-09, 12:38	I would be nice and stop torturing and killing people who disagree with my dictatorship. What would you do?
housecat 07-Jul-09, 15:54	stinky Ha! Do you really think that is what our gripe with Iran is? And I thought we were discussing their desire to develop nuke potential. Silly me....

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