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From	Message
hebrit 02-Aug-10, 07:03	Anyone can become a chess grandmaster I believe it was Miguel Quinteros who coined this phrase (or something like it). What is your opinion on this subject? Did he mean 'if you work hard enough', you can make it ? Or do like Fischer, quit school and everything else ? Do you think YOU could become a grandmaster if you tried hard enough ? Do we need special gifts to start with ?
rilke 02-Aug-10, 09:03	a mixture In my opinion it is a combination of a special gift and working hard.
antinephilehi 02-Aug-10, 10:44	Wy not? Have to agree with rilke.Magnus Carlsen is a hardworking,talented future world champion. But if anyone can be grandmaster,then why didn't I,or didn't you?
hebrit 02-Aug-10, 13:04	Yes, why not ... I guess most of us didn't really try. Is it worth it? In North America, one must be really nuts to take so much time on chess (not like in eastern Europe where a chess star is really a star, it seems). Or you can be really pushed by your parents, like Kamsky or the Polgar sisters.
rilke 02-Aug-10, 15:24	Polgar sisters I remember the Polgar sister when they came here to San Francisco. The eldest was already a GM, the other two sisters were emerging. Now look at them now !
hebrit 02-Aug-10, 15:36	The Polgar sisters were very young... ... when they started playing chess. And yet still few women play chess. What is it in this game that rebukes the weak sex ? Chess does not require physical strength. Is it because it is a representation of war? Or because you are not allowed to talk during a chess game ? (Oops, talking of war, this could be the beginning of another kind of war). Which brings me to another point : it seems very important in chess to start very young. Another item to add to those who want to become a grandmaster.
rilke 02-Aug-10, 15:41	Young age It is a must. The mind is still a sponge that can absorb everthing. There are exemptions in using your talent: Brahms was 40 when he composed his first symphony., Einstein at his youth was not so good in math
hebrit 02-Aug-10, 16:13	Young age ... and yet I don't quite agree with you with Brahms here: he got enormous praise from Schumann with his first piano compositions when he was barely 20. And Schumann knew good music when he heard it. The only reason he waited so long before writing a symphony was because of the immense shadow of Beethoven. And his first piano concerto, written around 25 is almost a symphony, and a very good one. But in chess it seems to be indeed very important : if I remember well, the father of russian chess, Chigorin, started playing quite late in life. I don't think there are too many exceptions like him.
rilke 03-Aug-10, 01:25	Young Eagle Back to Brahms. He was called the young Eagle by Schumann. Brahmas was a genius; but still he was 40 when the first symphony was composed ( he admired Beethoven ), however his music is amazing. He was in love with Clara; Robert's wife. Are there many cases in chess that the prodigies lose their talent once they reach maturity? ?
hebrit 03-Aug-10, 05:57	Young eagles ... I remember seing a couple of games analyzed by Alekhine in one of his books shortly before his death. He was analyzing games he played with a very young spaniard : Arturo Pomar. He predicted great things for this young man. And yet Pomar never quite realized this prediction. (By the way, I still think Alekhine's books on chess are among the best and most entertaining you can have). There's also the case of the two great american eagles : Morphy and Fischer, very much alike in their contradictions, and who both quit chess at the height of their powers. And then there was Akiba Rubinstein, who went insane, but that was later in life. Like Schumann ... Which brings us back to Brahms: it seems he was probably homosexual. His love of Clara was probably quite platonic, but sincere.
rilke 03-Aug-10, 07:34	Schuman and Brahms Is incredible how Schumann became insane with all that musical genius (just like Nietzsche). In Brahms's defense; I can say not only he loved Clara, but he had a quite high number of ladies he liked and loved. I believe he said that his art comes first; so he remained bachelor for the rest of his life. And yet, when Schumann died,his chance to married Clara came, but he did not came forward. Hebrit: Is there any evidence regarding his sexual preference?
hebrit 03-Aug-10, 07:55	Brahms again I don't remember where I read this. Probably just a presumption because he never married ; he was such a secret person that the matter of his sexual preferences may remain a secret for ever. There does not seem to be evidence here like in the case of Tchaikovsky, whose homosexuality is now taken for granted.
hebrit 03-Aug-10, 08:05	Meanwhile, in the chess world ... Getting back to our first subject, I remember reading somewhere that chess geniuses have a certain ability called 'spatial recognition' or something like that (the ability to visualize objects in space). I don't consider myself to be a chess genius, but there may be something there : for instance, I like studying maps, which is a kind of exploration of space recognition. Geometry was my favourite subject at school. And getting back to this sex thing, maybe women's brains don't function the same way in that area (of course we all know women's brains function differently in general - my wife's brain, anyway).
grege79 03-Aug-10, 18:27	I think starting young woould help, purely from a neurodevelopmental point of view, also from what I have read grandmasters have a superior pattern recognition ability. At the top level I am sure individuals have worked extremely hard to get there, they know the theory, they know the lines. There are a few peer reviewed studies floating around in regards to pattern recognition, I think the belief is that one player at the top level does not see more moves ahead then another player, but the recognise patterns of play and patterns on the board quicker than their opponents. www.informaworld.com www.springerlink.com books.google.com.au This last one is interesting, rapid play and blindfold play did not differ in error rates, but classical play did. Tells you something of the abilities being used. www.sciencedirect.com
hebrit 03-Aug-10, 19:14	Patterns and experience There is also the simple phenomenom of sheer experience, valuable in any activity. I've heard somewhere that a grandmaster usually sees the best move almost instantly (except in very open, tactical positions) and uses his time (in regular games) simply checking to be absolutely sure. Or he sees two possibilities where the layman would want to check 5 or 6 possible moves. So, for 6 half-moves ahead, a grandmaster would check 32 possibilities (usually less because some moves are obvious) while the rest of us would have to check roughly between 5,000 and 40,000 possibilities. That's why a grandmaster can beat almost all his opponents in a simultaneous exhibition.
coopershawk 04-Aug-10, 21:35	Age? I learned at age 5, so I am positive proof that learning at a young age does not assure that one will become a grand master, or an expert. Though I did have a rather long gap when I did not play between age 18 and age 57.
rilke 22-Jun-11, 09:05	Culture Does culture has any influence in this case ? ex: The former Soviet Union !
antinephilehi 22-Jun-11, 11:18	Culture Perhaps it is a numbers game. There where so many more chess players in USSR then compared with lets say Sweden. Sweden produced Ulf Andersson. USSR produced a lot more IGM. Or perhaps I am just trying to say that if there where just as many female players ,we whould most certainly have a female worldchampion.

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