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miffymork 29-Jan-11, 21:34	One for Gaz Didn't Russian communism start off with Marx and Trotsky being the idealists whose policies the party was going to implement. What went wrong. Has communism ever worked ? Even China seems to be embracing capitalism to a degree. People do tend to go more to the right as they get older Age does not give us brains , just wisdom. ? I am not a right wing extremist and agree the US. should do less interfering in the world.I have always voted labour .
miffymork 31-Jan-11, 21:06	One for Gaz Thought I would get a couple of bites but alas no.
grege79 31-Jan-11, 22:09	I just finished reading a few communist books, I think to write the whole thing off as a waste of time would be doing a disservice I believe. There are elements that have merit, imo, inheritance tax and some form of leveling is worthwhile, but people also need incentive to work to their capacity and entrepreneurs need to be encouraged.
antinephilehi 31-Jan-11, 22:30	In theory there are 3 steps to go through. First you have a revolution where you get the power from the rich. Second you have a dictatorship run by the people as an interval,so that you can create a new society . Then as a finale state you can start your communist society. In old Soviet I believe they got to stage two and then stopped there. So you cant really blame communism for what happened . At-least that's what people in my country say who still dream about communism. I do hope I get some coments about these "Three steps to heaven". They dont even have to be positiv
shamash 01-Feb-11, 01:26	"Three steps to heaven" Well-put, in every respect. ,
obsteve 02-Feb-11, 16:50	"Has communism ever worked?" there are hundreds of different co-operatives in the uk, I don't know if that qualifies under your particular image of communism. I'd say it was fairly close (ownership by the people for the people), but I wouldn't say they were revolutionary, or for a classless society. They are democratic, own the tools, etc (is this Marxism?). On the flip-side, I don't see much pure capitalism going on either, but where it does seem to thrive (the city, stock market, banking, etc) the lack of controls does seem to lead to the occasional economic f***-up
miffymork 03-Feb-11, 02:08	Obsteve. No !! For all its faults capitalism has more freedom than either communism or dictatorships.Surely a toolmaker is worth more than a cleaner and a brain surgeon worth more than a cleaner.The three steps could also lead to hell for some.if not the majority.
miffymork 03-Feb-11, 02:10	obsteve I meant to put brain surgeon worth more than a toolmaker.
darwin09 04-Feb-11, 07:25	Who knows. . . . . since it's never been tried. The major "communist" powers were/are dictatorial authoritarian oligarchies, with highly concentrated power at the top, the complete antithesis of social communism, in which political and economic power belongs to the people. With the exception of fascist China, most successful nations are a mix of capitialism and socialism, which is good, because when capitalism fails, which it must do periodically due to inherent weaknesses, socialism is there to prop it back up, as we have seen recently.
obsteve 04-Feb-11, 13:22	brain surgeon worth more eek! That's one of the problems of capitalism- it drives a wedge between us when we base on our worth on our capital. Why would a brain surgeon be "worth" more than a toolmaker, "worth" more than a cleaner? What of the toolmaker who makes the surgeon's tools, or the cleaner who disinfects them? Why should I (a teacher at a private school I can't afford to send my daugher to, or a toolmaker for private health clinic I can't afford to become a member of) be worth less than those I work for? Dictatorships aside (both capitalist and communist) I'm not sure capitalism entails more "freedom" than communist/socialist ideals. "Pure" capitalism has no state education, no state health, no state police, no social security, etc, etc. No government intervention to prevent exploitation of the poor, the gap between rich and poor is wide, there is no social mobility other than the rich getting richer and the poor poorer (more worthless).
miffymork 04-Feb-11, 15:50	darwin09 I think it has been tried, but never worked out as Marx wrote it.As you say capitalism is far from ideal and for reform I agree the left has a better record.I think we need a system where it is more important to have long term goals rather than capturing the vote of the swinging voter and to ensure only the people capable of handling money are made treasurer. But perhaps I am pipe dreaming too.
easy19 04-Feb-11, 15:58	communism is a Utopia The perfect system on paper but in practice there are people. So i have 100 apples for 100 people but one of those takes 2 apples because he was more hungry, then 1 person will have no apple at all. and that is the start of a major system failure... in the end there is 1 with 100 apples giving only those who he/she likes a part of it..
miffymork 04-Feb-11, 16:41	obsteve I think a brain surgeon is worth more because he has put in many more years of study, has a huge responsibility of of life or death and not least important the ability to do a job few could perform. In a true communist country how would you keep a brain surgeon or a toolmaker from leaving the country.? I do feel teachers are underpaid and that in order to get the best should paid more. However a good teacher (as I'm sure you are.) can get job satisfaction which is why my best friend gave up a better paid job in the oil industry. On your other point I do agree that agree pure capitalism is not good except for people born into wealth. We do need a middle road perhaps more to the left than in Australia at present.
obsteve 04-Feb-11, 17:25	Worth Hi Miffy, the responsibility of life and death also falls heavily on the cleaner and the maker of the surgeon's tools... OK, there are many more people able to clean than to make tools, or to be brain surgeons. Supply and demand. But I can bet you any money that brain surgeon comes from a rich family, and it has more to do with which private school mummy and daddy sent her to put in her years of study. But worth? One human worth more than another? Based on earning? Based on education? Based on Skill? Based on success? Based on produce? Economic value is a pretty abhorrent concept to me, though we have pretty much accepted it, and I understand we live in a free(ish) market, where price is determined mostly with supply and demand. But are parents who produce brain surgeon children worth more than those who produce cleaners? I don't think so Perhaps a brain surgeon would not leave a true communist country because she already had everything she wanted? (ie the job satisfaction you talk of a poorly paid teacher having!) Hi Easy19 In a capitalist orchard the people who grow the apples get paid less for the apples they grow than the apples cost. Inevitably they must grow many more apples than they are paid, otherwise the orchard would not be competitive enough to succeed in the big apple market, the orchard boss would not prosper and everyone would be out of a job. So the orchard boss makes the workers work harder and he pays them less in order to compete and get rich. Notice it is in his interests to keep his employees poor. In the communist orchard you do not have the 100 apples to give out- the people have divested you of that power by taking over the knowledge and machinery and growing the apples for themselves. They share the profits and the surplus. Co-operatives are great on paper and in practice! Not utopian, aren't they working examples of communism within a capitalist market?
miffymork 05-Feb-11, 12:54	obsteve I remain unconvinced. Did your parents have wealth. A teacher at a private school sounds like a good job to me Not as highly paid as it should be but Job security, long holidays and a very good pension. I lived in the UK and the coop we had then (A grocery shop) was inefficient, long queues, and dearer prices. They seemed to only get customers because people collected the coupons. They had to get a business man to run British Rail. I asked an air traffic controller how he could do that job . He replied the money is good and he hated that job.How can he get job satisfaction ? There are may jobs like that in the highly skilled and the unskilled' and someone has to do them. Is there a country in the world that can afford to offer the same lifestyle for all without reducing the overall the standard of living Sorry to sound cynical perhaps I am too old to be convinced..
shamash 05-Feb-11, 13:15	Cuba in the '70's, Russia in the '20's The quality of life in a country is like a good wine: it has its year. Going back a generation: A woman from Cuba remarked to an American: "You live in a country where some people have Cadillacs, and some don't have cars; I live in a country where everyone can own a Pinto." Going back further, to the Russia of 1920, a playwright remarked to a foreign visitor: "In your country people may point out in admiration a man on the street, and say, 'there goes a millionaire.' "We want to build the kind of country where people would point in admiration and say, 'There goes a good man.' " .
miffymork 05-Feb-11, 14:57	Shamus I am not sure about Castro in Spain he was a hero and they even named a drink after him but in the UK and the USA he wasn't too popular. The Russian communists sent a lot of good men to the salt mines but the Russian Mafia doesn't sound too good either. But I do like Tolstoy. LOL
shamash 05-Feb-11, 16:18	Muffie a "shamus" is a detective (won't even say what the word muff means in slang. hope that doesn't make you "miff"ed). Actually, during the '70's, beginning December 1969, many American volunteers did go to Cuba to help harvest sugar cane and pick fruit (living in tents and bunks on the farms), to support the new revolutionary ideals, interact with the Cuban people, and experience the new socialist life in Cuba (the "Venceremos Brigades"). These Brigades differed dramatically from protests or sit-ins where the demonstrators would go home at the end of the day. This was a real commitment of support to "Castro's" Cuba by Americans. .
miffymork 05-Feb-11, 17:12	Shamash No it doesn't bother me but my dog is upset. As I said my Knowledge of Cuba is very limited and therefore I am probably influenced by others too much,but his brand of communism seems preferably to the Russian or Korean.
shamash 05-Feb-11, 17:24	what success in chess and revolution have in common Called upon to account for the unlikely success of their invasion from Mexico by motorboat and their overthrow of the heavily-armed Batista government, Che Guevera said the biggest factor in his and Fidel Castro's military success was their "audacity". And that's a word I see figure in annotations by top player-theoreticians like Averbakh and Bronstein: the AUDACITY of a move, a plan, a sacrifice, or a combination can catapult a game to success. .
obsteve 06-Feb-11, 14:07	Hi Miffy The co-op may be dearer, slower and less efficient than Walmart, but this is on account of the little man getting a fairer deal. Fairtrade coffee and chocolate are dearer, and free range eggs are dearer, but I still buy them. I support what they stand for. I don't mind paying or waiting a fraction more. As a UK commuter I can tell you privatisation has utterly destroyed British Rail. It is a nonsense with one company in charge of trains and another in charge of tracks... wiki link to the effects of privatisation on BR below: en.wikipedia.org I am no longer a teacher having been made redundant. With no teaching work to be had, I am now making an entrepreneur of myself
miffymork 08-Feb-11, 21:16	hi obsteve sorry to hear you were made redundant which seems to suggest the UK is going backwards.Come and teach in Australia we have a lot to learn.Did British Rail ever work ? certainly when Nationalised no one on the railways did much work. In Melbourne they are not thought very highly of either but travel by rail is fairly cheap here .

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