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nf7mate 15-Apr-08, 07:48	Book 16 Patroclus acknowledges the gods' direct involvement in his defeat as he upbraids Hector with his last breaths. "Hector, vaunt as you will, for Jove the son of Saturn and Apollo have vouchsafed you victory; it is they who have vanquished me so easily, and they who have stripped the armour from my shoulders; had twenty such men as you attacked me, all of them would have fallen before my spear."
nf7mate 16-Apr-08, 08:57	Book 17 Zeus/Jove, in speaking to Achilles' horses, says, "Poor things, why did we give you to King Peleus who is a mortal, while you are yourselves ageless and immortal? Was it that you might share the sorrows that befall mankind? for of all creatures that live and move upon the earth there is none so pitiable as he is" This is an interesting statement; here we have the king of the gods saying that man is to be pitied more than any other creature that lives or moves upon the earth. Why is man to be pitied more than any other creature? Is it because of man's ability to reason, yet inability to change his destiny as decreed by the gods, or because his knowledge of good and evil makes him aware of the evil that befalls him? I find it interesting that Zeus, not a mortal man, makes the statement that mortal man is of all creatures most pitiable. I would enjoy hearing the thoughts of others on this. Do you agree with Zeus, that man is to be pitied more than any other creature that any other creature that lives or moves upon the earth? As a Christian, I would disagree because mankind alone was made in the image and likeness of God, making us the most honored of any creature that lives or moves upon the earth.
nf7mate 16-Apr-08, 08:58	Book 18 Authors often show the foolishness of a character by contrasting it with the wisdom of another. Homer makes use of this device in a conversation between Hector and his advisor, Polydamas. 'Polydamas son of Panthous was first to speak, a man of judgement, who alone among them could look both before and after...He addressed them thus: "Look to it well, my friends; I would urge you to go back now to your city and not wait here by the ships till morning, for we are far from our walls...Do then as I say, and let us retreat...If we do as I say, little though we may like it, we shall have strength in counsel during the night, and the great gates with the doors that close them will protect the city. At dawn we can arm and take our stand on the walls; he will then rue it if he sallies from the ships to fight us." Hector looked fiercely at him and answered, "Polydamas, your words are not to my liking in that you bid us go back and be pent within the city. Have you not had enough of being cooped up behind walls?...At daybreak we will arm and fight about the ships; granted that Achilles has again come forward to defend them, let it be as he will, but it shall go hard with him. I shall not shun him, but will fight him, to fall or conquer. The god of war deals out like measure to all, and the slayer may yet be slain." Thus spoke Hector; and the Trojans, fools that they were, shouted in applause' Hector's foolish decision is magnified by his blatant rejection of good counsel by his advisor. Note how Homer calls Polydamas 'a man of judgement, who alone among them could look both before and after' and the Trojans are called fools for applauding Hector's decision.
nf7mate 18-Apr-08, 07:19	Book 19 Achilles, now finally entering the battle, wants to attack the Trojans immediately without even giving the Archaeans time to eat a breakfast. Note the armies don't stop fighting for lunch so this will be their last chance to eat before dusk. Odysseus and Agamemnon argue with him that sending the Achaeans to fight with empty stomachs is foolish. While he relents, he does not concede that their counsel is wiser than his. Achilles makes decisions with his heart instead of head. His desire to attack immediately without letting the troops eat is impatience and a fruit of his rage.
nf7mate 18-Apr-08, 07:21	Book 20 Several times throughout this work, especially in this book, there is reference to fate. What is interesting to me is the relationship between fate and the gods/goddesses. As a Christian, I believe that God is sovereign, and that His will is destined to come to pass. Insofar as fate, I would simply say that fate is God's plan: that which is destined to be. In some ways, this mirrors Homer's works because the gods interfere in the affairs of mortals to impose their will on man, but there are several differences. Perhaps the most notable difference is that the gods and goddesses in Homer's works are subject to fate, just as the mortals are. Zeus wants to let Homer live, but concedes that he is fated to die. Apollo defends his saving Aeneas by pointing out that he was fated to live. The gods may control man but they don't control fate; fate controls the gods. So in Homer's works, fate is even more powerful than the gods, but it is seldom discussed and left unexplained.
nf7mate 18-Apr-08, 09:37	Book 21 Achilles, in his rage, is a man without mercy. He mercilessly slaughters Lycaon, who has thrown himself on the ground and is begging for his life. "Achilles, have mercy upon me and spare me, for I am your suppliant. It was in your tents that I first broke bread on the day when you took me prisoner in the vineyard; after which you sold away to Lemnos far from my father and my friends, and I brought you the price of a hundred oxen. I have paid three times as much to gain my freedom; it is but twelve days that I have come to Ilius after much suffering, and now cruel fate has again thrown me into your hands...Furthermore I say, and lay my saying to your heart, spare me, for I am not of the same womb as Hector who slew your brave and noble comrade." Achilles answered him sternly. "Idiot," said he, "talk not to me of ransom." After killing Lycaon, who made no effort to defend himself, Achilles threw him in the river and vaunted over him, saying, "Lie there among the fishes, who will lick the blood from your wound and gloat over it; your mother shall not lay you on any bier to mourn you, but the eddies of Scamander shall bear you into the broad bosom of the sea. There shall the fishes feed on the fat of Lycaon as they dart under the dark ripple of the waters" This is but one act of cruelty by the enraged Achilles.
nf7mate 18-Apr-08, 10:05	Book 22 The long awaited fight between Achilles and Hector. The excitement is not in any way lessened, even though the reader has been told in advance that Hector is the one to die. The two speak before and after the fight and the rage and cruelty of Achilles is starkly contrasted with the dignity and honor exhibited by Hector. Consider these exchanges: "Let us, then, give pledges to one another by our gods, who are the fittest witnesses and guardians of all covenants; let it be agreed between us that if Jove vouchsafes me the longer stay and I take your life, I am not to treat your dead body in any unseemly fashion, but when I have stripped you of your armour, I am to give up your body to the Achaeans. And do you likewise." Achilles glared at him and answered, "Fool, prate not to me about covenants. There can be no covenants between men and lions, wolves and lambs can never be of one mind, but hate each other out and out an through." Then Hector said, as the life ebbed out of him, "I pray you by your life and knees, and by your parents, let not dogs devour me at the ships of the Achaeans, but accept the rich treasure of gold and bronze which my father and mother will offer you, and send my body home, that the Trojans and their wives may give me my dues of fire when I am dead." Achilles glared at him and answered, "Dog, talk not to me neither of knees nor parents; would that I could be as sure of being able to cut your flesh into pieces and eat it raw, for the ill have done me, as I am that nothing shall save you from the dogs."
nf7mate 18-Apr-08, 12:20	Book 23 Having buried Patroclus, the Achaeans hold a chariot race and other games of sport. This long scene seems out of place after the intense climactic battle between Achilles and Hector. It was disturbing to me to see these war-hardened heroes arguing and bickering with one another over who should receive the prizes for the chariot race.
nf7mate 18-Apr-08, 12:21	Book 24 The rage of Achilles finally subsides as he agrees to ransom Hector's body. I found interesting the comparison between this scene and another in book 1. In book 1, Cryses comes in tears to ransom his daughter and in this book Priam comes to ransom the body of his son. Cryses is refused, insulted, and sent away while Priam's offer is accepted and he is treated with dignity. Book 1 set the scene for a story of rage while book 24 depicts the end of that rage.
nf7mate 22-Apr-08, 12:03	The inevitability of death and achieving immortality through glory on the battlefield One central theme of the Iliad is the fate. Almost every significant event in the work is foretold; indeed the work even foretells of events which do not come to fruition within the work itself, yet are colloquially known to occur in within Greek mythology (i.e. the death of Achilles, the fall of Troy). It is repeatedly acknowledged in the work that the ultimate fate of all mortal men is death. It is also noteworthy that not only is Troy burned to the ground, but even the Achaean's battlements are destined for destruction. Neither man nor the work of his hands can stand forever. The characters' only hope of immortality is to achieve glory on the battlefield, in which case their feats are told of from generation to generation until they become legends. A perfect example of this is Achilles, who said that he is aware that before him stands a choice of a long but forgotten peaceful life in Phthia, or a short but glorious life on the battlefield of Troy. He ultimately chose the short but glorious life and is now 'living' forever in stories of his daring on the battlefield. Hector also was aware of his looming death from the beginning, but he didn't try to escape his fate; instead he faced it directly, trying to accomplish as many daring feats as the gods would allow before the appointed hour of his death. Even at his last moment of life, while battling Achilles, when he knows that the time of his death is imminent, he charges Achilles, praying to the gods to allow him one last moment of glory. The Iliad makes a statement that every man's life will end in death, and even the work his hands will not endure forever, but through tales of glory on the battlefield, men can become immortal.
mrvroom 22-Apr-08, 15:28	nf7mate Thank you for this. Very entertaining and informative. Cheers mate!!
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