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From	Message
taufiq 16-Dec-07, 10:34	London System Is anyone familiar with this opening ? It seems like I'm playing that one, without knowing it   Somebody told me.. So now I'm curious about this opening.. What are it's benefits or bad points ? How can I develop properly ? Are there any things to be carefull with ? ... ? So any help or info is welcome ! Thanks in advance, Geert
schnarre 17-Dec-07, 10:21	The set up of 1. d4 followed by 2. Bf4 is a basic--& perfectly sound--set up. I've mostly seen 3. e3 then 4. Bd3 following though other players have developed their Knights first. In any case it's hard to go wrong with it!
taufiq 17-Dec-07, 13:21	Personally, I prefer 1. Nf3, followed by 2.d4... But some people told me that's not as good as doing 1.d4 first (but I'm afraid people will come with 1. ... c5 or so..
rogubravo 18-Dec-07, 10:43	Hi Geert, There's a recent book (J. Cox, Dealing with 1.d4 Deviations, EverymanChess) that has a complete chapter on the London system; it's mostly meant to prepare black to play against it, but often you get great ideas for white from reading this kind of material. Rodrigo
taufiq 18-Dec-07, 14:06	... Thanks alot Rodrigo, for the advice ! I surely will try to get a look in that book ! At the moment, I'm reading "Win with the London System", of Sverre Johnsen and Vlatko Kovacevic.. But that's very heavy literature for a beginner like me !! Keep coming those tips please ! Thanks everybody !
mybookrunsdeep 20-Dec-07, 07:07	The London... is a good weapon for you at this point. I know many players who used it at your level, and I even teach it to my advanced scholastic players. As you progress you will want to branch out though, but this gives you a good starting point for learning the strategy and tactics of an opening system. Another benefit of this system is that you don't have to memorize a lot of opening theory. If this appeals to you, then you should also look into other "set-up" openings, like the Colle.
whizzkid111 22-Dec-07, 03:18	The London Set up openings like the London work better in blitz games than correspondence. But still playable. Another 2 set up openings ( for white) that I suggest that you consider and try out are. 1. The Colle system (e.g. 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3. e3 Nf6 4.Bd3 c5 5.c3 Nbd7 6. Nbd2 Bd6 7.0-0 0-0 8. Qe2 Re8 9. Re1 b6 10.e4! The strategy of the opening is to develop every piece with a view of supporting the e4 push, which will allow the dark squared Bishop a chance to see light of day ( Black is basically forced to play dxe4 because failure to do so would lead to e5! winning a piece. When Black does play dxe4 White recaptures with the Knight which will then let the dark squared Bishop out. 2. The stone wall (e.g. 1.d4 d5 2.e3 Nf6 3.Bd3 e6 4.c3 c5 5.f4 Nc6 6.Nf3 b6 7.0-0 Bb7 8. Nbd2 Be7 9. Ne5 Qc7 10. Qf3 0-0 11. Qg3 Rc8 12. Ndf3.) That will do for now. Advantages for white are a) The Knight on e5 very strongly supported and cant really get kicked off. If Black takes the f6 Knight will have to retreat afterwards ( White recaptures with the f4 pawn) the h7 square is only supported by the king and White can play Qh3 ( after the knight retreats) threatening Qxh7 mate and then Black will have to play h6 or g6 to prevent mate creating a long term weakness to his King's protection. Also White has the f-file to his use. b) White can play the opening fast because he can't really slip up. When the opening is set up White has a easier position to play. Disadvantages for White a) Black will get a better endgame if he could get away with swapping material because White's dark squared bishop is bad.
tomwhufc 24-Dec-07, 05:39	Hey taufiq I've got an annotated game on the stonewall. Take looki if you want.
taufiq 30-Dec-07, 15:54	@ Tomwhufc: Finally I've read your annotation about "Running into a stonewall". Very nice one !! Keep on annotating !   Take care, Geert
e4e6 04-Jan-08, 21:49	YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN! BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING! This describes the London System. The only time this opening is any good is if you are in the final round, and you need only a draw while Black is in a must-win situation. Only then might you get a win with it. Otherwise, it's a complete advantage-waster for White. Black has easy equality. Not saying it's "stupid" like the Grob is (1.g4 Advantage Black), but it's useless if wins mean more to you than draws.
neilskye 08-Jan-08, 05:08	@ e4e6 I think your post is only really applicable to Masters or players with deep opening knowledge. Players on this site, with a few exceptions, generally meet neither of these conditions which is why lines which have been analysed as drawn or even advantage black are often played successfully here.
e4e6 08-Jan-08, 20:42	neilskye, did you ever consider that some players here have a deep opening knowledge. If you think my over-the-board rating is 1700, think again. I use this site to experiment with openings I don't play just to see if they are worth adding to my reportoire. Therefore, with all the experimentation, my rating is expected to be low here. There are actually openings (such as the French, for example) where I do actually know certain lines more than 20 moves deep (for example, the French Closed Tarrasch with 11...O-O where Black ends up with a Queen for Rook, Piece, and Pawn). I can safely say that the London truly is a boring opening. Always has been, even back in the heyday when I was only 1500. It's not an opening I'd ever recommend to someone if they asked me what openings they should learn when first learning openings. The London doesn't prepare you for the long-run of your chess career. The first openings a player should ever learn are the Queen's Gambit and Ruy Lopez, in order to learn the basics of Positional Play and Tactics. After that, learning other sound openings and defenses (English, French, Sicilian, Caro-Kann, etc.) is the approach to take until you are at least 2000. At that point, you can try offbeat stuff, which is what a lot of masters do now (see Morozevich) as all the mainstream lines are known. The problem with playing garbage like the London or Colle systems (which are no better than flat equality for White) is that once you get past about 1800, you have to start all over again. As White, there are 2 approaches to winning. Playing for the slight theoretical advantage (taking advantage of going first) with mainstream openings, or else playing positions that are equal, but offbeat (like 1.Nc3), where theory isn't already figured out 30 moves deep (like the Dragon is), and one is then going for the psychological edge. The London contains neither of those. No theoretical advantage! No surprise value!
schnarre 10-Jan-08, 17:31	For White I've often recommended the Torre Attack (1. d4, 2. Nf3, 3. Bg5) for starting players: it covers all the basics, & has a good deal of flexibility against practically all Black replies. For the London, I would say it's a safe approach that's hard to go wrong with. Easy to learn, lessening study time. As with any Opening, it all boils down to what fits the player's style & preference (One doesn't know for certain without trying one or more Openings).
rogubravo 13-Jan-08, 07:04	I also think that the London system is a good choice for starting players, especially if they are not thrilled about spending a lot of time studying opening theory. I'll tell you something, as black I completely hate playing against the London system! I also think that knowledge of openings has more to do with how much you know about a given opening and not how many openings you actually know. If you know the London system (or any offbeat opening) up and down, you'll have much better results than if you just know the first five or six moves of every mainstream line. My two cents.
neilskye 13-Jan-08, 22:59	e4e6 I was not referring to you, or people of your playing standard. I was referring to the people taufiq is likely to be playing often, people on the site rated around 1500 (and even higher) don't tend to have quite the same opening knowledge as yourself or mbrd. This is why some openings which may have been proved unsound so that you would never play them, or you find they lead to boring games, will be perfectly fine for players rated around 1500 and many even higher rated players. Believe me, I wasn't trying to disparage your opening knowledge at all, I was just saying that what is good for people with deep book knowledge may not be so good for those without the same knowledge.
taufiq 14-Apr-08, 03:40	... Hi there ! Is everybody doing fine ? It's pretty quiet in the club forum ? Come on people, let's have a chat !   A few weeks ago, I ordered a dvd in the USA. It's called Foxy Openings; The London System. (with commentary of IM Andrew Martin). Today, the postman brought me a present, the dvd ! I can't wait to play it, when I come home after my work   Is anyone familiar with those dvd's from Foxy ? Take care, Geert
blake78613 09-Oct-08, 07:48	The London System The London system (with colors reversed) is a common reply to the Reti. White posts his Bishop outside the pawn chain and plays a closed game. This results in the b2 pawn being weak and invites ... Qb6. If White responds to ...Qb6 with Qb3, we have a situation where the side that exchanges queens is at a disadvantage; since the exchange cedes the a-file to the other side.
chessplayer-58 12-Nov-08, 19:54	I know that here is somekinde of opening book...in gameknot....do some of you know uther links,in internet,vere I can lerne uther openings whith white then "kings pawn opening"and maybee,ho to usnwer, to a for me "tricky" white opening whith black?
blake78613 22-Nov-08, 11:54	If you simply Google the name of an opening, you will usually find some helpful links.
blake78613 10-Dec-08, 17:44	the main idea of the London seems to be: to establish a knight on e5, then attack.

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