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From	Message
ironbutterfly 29-Jul-09, 18:59	Qside pawn assault I like your reasoning, jc, but I think an immediate .....b5 is stronger. It forces his B back, probably to d3, and we can follow with .....Bg4 and/or ......Rc8 to continue our attack. I was a fan of castling long for several moves, but now I like ......Rc8 instead to continue the attack with ....c6.
shamusb 31-Jul-09, 05:19	move 18 I'm still in favour of playing N-h4, possibly followed by N-g2. But, I can see the possibilities in C6, B5. And if we go that direction N-h4 won't go away. I need to think this over some more, but right now I'd be okay with either Nh4 or C6.
cyna 31-Jul-09, 11:21	Move 18 My vote: 18...c6
johnclark 31-Jul-09, 15:20	just reposting the board so it's on the current page hbird v Club Morphy gameknot.com 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 Bg7 5. d4 d6 6. h4 h6 7. Nc3 Nc6 8. d5 Ne5 9. Nxe5 Bxe5 10. Qf3 g4 11. Qf2 Qf6 12. Bd2 a6 13. O-O-O g3 14. Qe2 h5 15. Rdf1 Bd7 16. Kb1 Ne7 17. Qe1 Ng6 18. Qc1 *
johnclark 31-Jul-09, 15:38	Unsolicited suggestion for 18...Nxh4 Shamusb has a supporter for 18...Nxh4! I received this suggestion with rationale for 18...Nxh4 from 7angels. It seems 7angels has taken an interest in our consultation game and has put some thought into our position. I consulted with hbird on what to do with this unsolicited advice. Hbird does not object to my sharing this with the club members. ------------------------------- "From 7angels Hello, johnclark! hi i'm not a member but if you would like some more input then i have some to offer. you moved Ng6 to attack g4. this is what i think you should do. 18. Qc1 Nxh4 19. Ne2 Nxg2 (if he moves knight) 20. Nxf4 Nxf4 21. Bxf4 g2 22. Bxe5 Qxe5 by the end he we are up another pawn and have our choice of rooks. 18. Qc1 Nxh4 19. Bxf4 Nxg2 (if he starts an immediate attack with the bishop) 20. Bxe5 Qxe5 now our horse is stranded but should he try to get it with his queen then we can spring a trap. 21. Qd2 Ne3 22. Qxe3 g2 23. Qf3 gxf1=Q+ 24. Rxf1 O-O-O (we could at this point move f6 up and trade queens) 25. Qxf7 h4 now there may be a better way of doing this but now he is down a rook and we are down a knight and 2 pawns. still up 2 pieces though and in a good position with 2 rooks on 2 open files and a passed pawn. well i hope this helps." ---------------------------- This morning 7angels sent a follow up to his analysis for 18.Nxh4 --------------------------- 31-Jul-09, 06:17 » reply » ignore » report abuse From 7angels Hello, johnclark! just on a second look at the hbird vs club morphy best move i see is Nh4 19. Ne2 Nxg2 20. Nxf4 Nxf4 21. Bxf4 O-O-O 22. Bxe5 Qxe5 23. Rxf7 Qxe4 24. b3 h4 up another pawn and 2 passed pawns or 19. Be2 Nxg2 20. Rhg1 Nh4 21. Bxf4 g2 22. Rxg2 Nxg2 23. Bxe5 Qxe5 24. Bd3 or 19. Bxf4 Nxg2 20. Bxe5 Qxe5 21. Qd2 h4 22. Qxg2 h3 23. Qf3 f6 24. Qxf6 Qxf6 on second thought should something not work we still have the bishop on d7 to start the pawn assualt. also b5 followed by c5(should he empassant then he would of taken it at c6 too and if he takes it we take with bc6). but if he leaves it alone then we can go after the knight or bishop. this might be a better idea because it might pull some pressure off the f4 pawn. " -------------------- Let's take a look at this. Discussion is extended for 1 day. I will call for a vote tomorrow. jc
ironbutterfly 31-Jul-09, 17:32	move 18 My short term memory is erratic   - the major reason I liked ....Ng6 on the previous move is that it set up ....Nxh4 - that's my first choice here, though I think we have several decent ones.
pennsylvaniadan 31-Jul-09, 20:18	Deleted by pennsylvaniadan on 04-Aug-09, 01:18.
cyna 01-Aug-09, 19:33	Move 18 Ok, You Guys, I see the value in your suggestion, as noted above: 18...Nxh4. Ditto - that's my vote as well.
shamusb 02-Aug-09, 04:40	Move 18 If we play Nxh4, there are a lot of ways it could go from there, but I think all paths look good for us in the short-term - but we would have to be very careful for the next 3-4 moves. If we play c6, and then b5, I can see how that could be good but my preference at this stage is still for Nxh4.
johnclark 02-Aug-09, 22:34	End of discussion, time to vote Please vote for one of the following suggestions: 18...Bg4 18...0-0-0 18...c6 18...Rc8 18...Nxh4
pennsylvaniadan 02-Aug-09, 23:08	Deleted by pennsylvaniadan on 04-Aug-09, 01:19.
ironbutterfly 03-Aug-09, 07:32	move 18 My vote also is for ......Nxh4
shamusb 03-Aug-09, 17:41	move 18 My vote is Nxh4
coopershawk 03-Aug-09, 21:18	18. . . 0-0-0 Sorry that I have been absent so long, just now returning and haven't really analyzed this complex position tactically, but here is my dissent. From a positional point of view, 18. . Nxh4 looks very risky to me because it opens up lines of attack for white on black's badly disorganized K side and uncastled king. I would play 0-0-0- to move the king to a safer spot and get black's other rook into play. Right now the rook is sulking in the corner, doing nothing. I think we are hanging on by a thread, and saved only because the position is fairly closed. We need to keep it closed until we can get more fire-power in the game, and get an attack focused on something..
johnclark 03-Aug-09, 21:58	WELCOME BACK cascadejames!! Glad to see you back and hope that everything went as best as it could for you. jc
7split10 03-Aug-09, 22:03	Disagree with Nxh4 I'm sorry, guys, but I disagree with Nxh4. After you take the pawn, he'll just Bxf4 and start cramping your advantage this game. In fact, you may even lose a pawn here, but you'll definately screw up your position. I suggest b5. After b5, he'll probably retreat his bishop to d3, and then you can get in there with Bg4 or something.
7split10 03-Aug-09, 22:06	However, if I had to vote on a move from the aforementioned list (in which b5 is NOT on), I would vote to castle long.
pennsylvaniadan 04-Aug-09, 01:37	move 18 John, I think a little more discussion on this move may be warranted. I have deleted my vote for Nxh4. I think we need to decide an over all attack on his position. Do we want to attack his left side by not castling and putting our K on e7 and pushing our pwns on the abc lines with the support of our rooks or castle long and grind it out on his right side? I will with hold my vote for now.
shamusb 04-Aug-09, 07:35	move 18 I agree with pennsylvaniadan, we're not united on this move, and a few new comments have been made. Can we have more time to discuss, and see if we can't find a strategy we're all in agreement on?
ironbutterfly 04-Aug-09, 12:58	move 18 I've taken another look at the position, and my first choice is ......b5, for the reasons I gave on our last move. My second choice is ......0-0-0.
cyna 04-Aug-09, 13:24	Move 18 I agree with Ironbutterfly on both choices: 1st: 18...b5; and 2nd: 18...0-0-0 (which was once my first choice). Welcome back, Cascadejames! I hope everyone's having a great day!!
johnclark 04-Aug-09, 16:55	Motion to delay the vote Penndan has requested to delay the vote for further discussion and shamusb seconds it. We have had some unexpected occurrences, a guest throws in a logical arguement, cascadejames returns and 7split10 joins the club and game. Discussion is now re-opened for 15 hours (8 AM PST 8/5/09) and voting will have to be completed in the following 30 hours (12:01 AM PST 8/06/09). We are running out of time, so there cannot be further delay in getting our move in.
7split10 04-Aug-09, 18:25	Ok, I spent some time on this, and hopefully my analysis is somewhat close to accurate. Sorry to butt in on your guys' game as such a new club member, but the idea of consultation games really interests me. Here's a very probable continuation to the move 18... b5: 19. Bd3 Bg4 (retreats bishop and we move our bishop to a very good attacking square). 20. He'll likely wheel his knight to e2 or move his rook to g1. If someone has a better move for him in this spot, let me know what you think and I can analyze it, but these two moves I believe are his best. Ok, so first say he goes 20. Ne2. Then we push our pawn to f3. Here he really only has two moves... he can attack our queen with Bg5 (which ends up bad for him after ...Qg7 22. gxf3 g2 23. fxg4 hxg4 and we get a nice pawn fork) or he can take right away with his g pawn and we still get the rook fork. Seems like our position looks good here. Now, say he sees the fork and prophylactically moves rook to g1. Then we can simply move our bishop to d4 and now we are really forcing the action and we will again win a rook for a pawn and a bishop. Our position clearly is winning from here as there isn't a good answer to our f3 push on his end. Ok, lets go back to the 18th line in this game... some of you folks want to castle long instead of b5. Then, he'll wheel his knight to e2 and take away our f3 pawn push. He's kept the game even in material and we lost our attacking line. Finally, the reason why we want to go b5 here instead of going Bg4 is tricky, but correct. If we directly try to move our bishop to g4, he'll simply retreat his bishop to e2 thwarting our nice little attack. The reason why he CAN'T move his bishop to e2 after we go b5 is because we can then push that b5 pawn ahead winning his knight. I hope you guys found this analysis somewhat helpful. -Brad
coopershawk 04-Aug-09, 21:17	18 Thanks Brad. Maybe I am missing something, but isn't it possible that we will see: 18 . . .b5 19. Be2 b6 20. Nd1 and then f3 is not available for us. I agree that f3 is potentially our breakout move, its just a question of timing. I am stodgy and still tend to want to get that King behind the pawns and on the queen side before opening up the lines of attack on the king side. I also want to have our queen rook available for the king side attack. if 18. . . O-O-O is followed by 19. Ne2 then isn't 19. . Bg4 still a pretty good move for us?
pennsylvaniadan 04-Aug-09, 22:28	move 18 Ha! Now this is consultation. After going through all these idea's I've come to the conclusion that I'm totally out of my league compared to some of you guys---lol Anyway, after further reflection and study, Nxf4 doesn't work right now, we will get in big trouble if we make that move. Another suggestion is O-O-O. Now that might look like the prudent move at this point but I think it would put us on the defense because he can easily mount an attack on that corner and we are really out of position right now and would have to do some scrambling to defend. I think castling right now would give him the initiative in the match. What would Morphy do? I think he would attack by going with b5 and h-bird will likely move Bd3 not e2 (he will save that spot for his Knight because he's going to want to clear up the c3 square for his pwn. I say, let's take the initiative and put him on his heels---b5-------
johnclark 05-Aug-09, 02:44	Move 18...* Burning the midnight oil Well it's almost 2:30 AM out here in California, but I want to give you my ideas. As with shamusb, cascadejames, 7split10 and now penndan, I really don't like 18...Nxh4 because it removes the support for our weak f4 pawn. I suggested 17...Ng6 NOT to capture the h4 pawn, but to support our Achilles Heel, the f4 pawn. I mentioned previously that hbird is lined up to CONTROL the f4 square (Rf1, Bd2, Qc1- all converging on f2 square). If we lose that square, our kingside pawn structure crumbles. Yes, we may pick up hbird's g2 pawn and a sacrificed bishop he's willing to give, but we will face heavy artillery from his rooks, queen and light squared bishop. And our only option then will be ...0-0-0 with full shift from offense to defense. And he will tear us apart with those open files. So first and foremost, let's protect our f2 pawn and keep our defense! He's out of position to do anything other than hit our queenside. 18...Nxh4 19.Bxf4 will turn the game. Our guest doesn't consider 19.Bxf4. Also, we need to keep in mind the blocking tactic. As long as our f4 pawn is in tact, his pawns block any use of the h and g files. Our supported f4 pawn and dark squared bishop on e4 block any advance. Hbird will need several tempi or dubious sacrifice to get to a potent position. With that said, NOW IS THE TIME TO ATTACK. We can go forward with 18...b5 or 18...Ke7 to prepare for ...Rhc8 or b8. 18...c6 does not look that good right now. I say to trust our defense as it is on the kingside and ATTACK on the kingside! I think ...Bg4 will dilute our kingside attack as it supports the a4 square and will prevent hbird from nesting his knight on it. (note: As moderator for Club Morphy I offer suggestions and participate in discussion, but I vote only to break ties.)
johnclark 05-Aug-09, 10:36	Deleted by johnclark on 05-Aug-09, 11:07.
johnclark 05-Aug-09, 11:14	A final comment on our 18th move 7split10 has done a very nice analysis and after playing through it a couple of times, I see the importance of a ...Bg4 to control the h5-d1 diaganol. Cascadejames touches on a possible line that we have not discussed- 18...b5 19.Be2! (giving white control of the diaganol) ...b4 20.Nd1 (he's very cramped, but very safe). Perhaps we should consider 18...Bg4 and thus retain attack options on both flanks. We have quite a discussion going on with Club Morphy's 18th move and I think it only fair to further extend the deadline so those members who are at work can also have additional time to further comment and vote. I've now pushed the move limits as far as they will go. The game times out tomorrow 8/6/09 at 3 pm. Because we are quickly running out of time we really need to be flexible. Discussion is still open but members can also cast their vote from now to noon tomorrow (Pacific time). Please use the words, "I vote for ___" or "I re-vote for ___" in your comments so as to avoid confusion on my part.
cyna 05-Aug-09, 12:07	Move 18 I agree with the above logic, and I re-vote for: Move 18...Bg4
7split10 05-Aug-09, 12:17	I love it! Cascadejames, Thanks for taking the time to look over my lines! This is exactly what I wanted for the benefit of the club. Anyways, to answer you first question.. Thanks Brad. Maybe I am missing something, but isn't it possible that we will see: 18 . . .b5 19. Be2 b6 (I think you mean b4 here) 20. Nd1 and then f3 is not available for us This would actually put him in a WORSE situation. Here's why: After Nd1 we can go c5. Then he has two choices, he can capture en passant, we retake with the bishop, and then suddenly his position is out of good moves. Now we have pressured his kingside and he's in a load of trouble. If he decides to open up lines against his castled king with say, b3, we can go a5 and start to pry open his king's defenses. Down the road, he's likely going to have to sac a bishop or a knight to save face on his pressured king. (If you want the lines to this attack, send me a private message and I can give you several options). And to answer your second part: if 18. . . O-O-O is followed by 19. Ne2 then isn't 19. . Bg4 still a pretty good move for us? The answer is no. After Bg4, he can take our f4 pawn with his knight and we will lose the exchange battle here... (20. Nxf4, Nxf4 21. Bxf4 Bxf4 22. Rxf4) And now we have to move our queen, and our attacking chances on his queenside have been quashed.
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