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From	Message
damalfi 12-Sep-11, 16:43	Probably yes, so... why we don't secure the pawn with b6? I'm trying to imagine the worst attack by white: 13... b6, 14. Qe4, g6, 15. e6, Re8, and if 16. exf7+, Nxf7 and apparently holds. If 15. Qf4, Kg7, and if 16. Ng5, Nxe4, 17. QxN+, f6, and the threat Re8 is still on (18. Ne6+, BxN, and if QxB, Re8). __ White can proceed with (13... b6, 14. Qe4, g6, 15. Qf4, Kg7), 16. g4, Bb7, 17. g5, Ng8, and it appears to hold - we have BxN, QxB, Nxe5. White must take care of it. __ So 13... b6 seems to be an option.
gcah2006 12-Sep-11, 18:20	I like b6 - it leaves us the threat of Re8 while his king if in the centre. 13... b6 14. Qe4 Nf6?! 15. exf6 Bf5... makes for a very interesting line too! Seems to be worth considering!
easy19 12-Sep-11, 23:16	I have 2 votes for b6 and 2 for Qe7 i need 1 more vote
bigpeta 13-Sep-11, 00:34	b6 loses a Rook if we play b6 then white plays Qe4 threatening Qxh7# Then when we prevent that white plays instead Qxa8 and we lose a R.
damalfi 13-Sep-11, 02:30	As often I overlooked the most obvious threat. bigpeta ir right, b6 just loses a rook with no compensation. So, the choice is between Qe7 and... Nd-f6, or maybe Re8 at once. I'm sorry I'm not contributing to the discussion more wisely, I'm in a tough period.
damalfi 13-Sep-11, 02:52	Re8 This moves gives to our king an important square to go if ever Qxh7+, and allows Nf6. It doesn't give up the c5 pawn (Nxc5, Qh5+, Qd2? Nxe4, QxQ, Nc4+, followed by NxQ). Against 14. Qe4, Nf6 can be played. True is white can go on in several ways: 15. Qf4 gives us a tempo to play b6. A possible attack can be 16. g4, going to fork both knights. We can consider Nd5, so the queen must go away again (Qe4, g6 can work, since after g5, the knight can jump to f5).
gcah2006 13-Sep-11, 05:23	I retract b6 and go with Re8 It only puts us in another stalemate for move, but I don't like the idea of defending such a valuable pawn with our queen. Also, the e-file isn't as threatening with the Queen looking down it.
easy19 13-Sep-11, 09:46	then i have 2 votes for the Qe7 and 2 Votes for Re8 so still need 1 more vote   unless you want me to decide...
l-d-j 13-Sep-11, 10:21	I fear... ... that damalfi's line is incorrect. After 13...Re8 14.Nxc5 Qa5+ 15.Qd2 Nxe5 White can just take the N (as 16.Nxe5 Re8 is met by 17.Qxa5, and after 16.Nxe5 Qxd2+ 17.Kxd2 their N isn't pinned so 16...Re8 doesn't win the piece back). So 13...Qe7 it is for me.
l-d-j 13-Sep-11, 10:22	Wait.. I made a misteke. The R was still on f8 in my head.
l-d-j 13-Sep-11, 10:23	Re8 anyway OK, I'll go with 13...Re8.
easy19 14-Sep-11, 00:16	Club it is your move game < is here 1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. e4 e5 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bxc4 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Bxd2+ 7. Nbxd2 exd4 8. e5 Ng4 9. h3 Nh6 10. Nb3 c5 11. Qe2 O-O 12. Rc1 Nd7 13. Bd3 Re8 14. O-O I update the annotation wen i get back home
bigpeta 14-Sep-11, 04:22	Now Qe7 we need to protect c5 so we cant play Nf6 we still cant play b6 as we lose a R so that leaves us with Qe7 white should respond either Rfe1 or Qe4 threatening mate, which we prevent with g6
damalfi 14-Sep-11, 06:17	but... Qc7 gets the same result and we still have the roox x-raying the white queen. Nxd4, since if NxN, f6 (though dangerous), ensures us to recover the piece (well, it is not that simple). Finally, the "crazy" f5!? must be considered, maybe later. So, another difficult choice here.
ramblinwreck 15-Sep-11, 10:22	...Qc7 I agree with most of damalfi's analysis, and I think getting another piece off of the back rank is crucial at this point, as we are already way behind in development.
gcah2006 15-Sep-11, 10:53	Just so I know, what do we follow up with after; 1) Qc7 Nfxd4, and 2) Qc7 Nbxd4. In my opinion, choice 1) definitely loses us at least a pawn. 14... Qc7 15. Nfxd4 Nxe5? 16. Rxc5...
l-d-j 15-Sep-11, 11:48	...Qe7 It seems gcah is right, so I prefer 14...Qe7.
gcah2006 15-Sep-11, 15:11	We can improve 14... Qc7 15. Nfxd4 with 15... Qxe5, I think. As for 15. Nbxd4; 1. ... Qc7 2. Nbxd4 Nxe5 3. Nb5 Qe7 4. Rfe1 f6 5. Ng5 I was feeling too lazy to put the correct numbers in - sorry.
damalfi 15-Sep-11, 15:14	Ups Ok, I admit that if Qc7, Nbxd4 crushes us. I didn't realize the pawn will be pinned. My blindness. So let's say Qe7 is the one. There is something I don't like about it, but I'm not able to focus it. But as for the other following to Qc7, 15. Nfxd4, we have the clean Rxe5 (and not Nxe5), and white will go probably 16. Qc2, threatening Bxh7. In that case, Nf6, 17. Nxc5, and black can start to think about something like Bxh3, since if white 18. gxB, Rg5+, 19. Kh1, Ng5 (threatening mate in one), 20. hxN, Nxg5 (renewing the threat), 21. f4, Rh5+, 22. Kg1, Ne3, forking Q and R. After the queen moves (anywhere), NxR, and if white takes 23. RxN, we recover the piece with RxNc5, if BxN, Qxf4 with strong attack, and if KxN, Qxf4+ is crushing. I'm studying what if white plays f4 before taking the knight (surprisingly, it is much more difficult for black to get something, but he still can, maybe, after Rh5: Yummy position for tactics...
easy19 16-Sep-11, 06:51	10 hours left before i count the votes
ramblinwreck 16-Sep-11, 08:12	...Qe7 I change my vote also. Sorry I didn't catch this earlier - thanks for the insight by gcah2006.
dmaestro 17-Sep-11, 11:58	I still like ...Qe7. I think the counter pressure on the e file and the d8 to h4 diagonal is helpful, besides defending c5. We are threatening the response Rb8 followed by b3.
easy19 17-Sep-11, 12:52	Club it is your move game < is here gameknot.com < Annotation is here. comments are welcome 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bxc4 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Bxd2+ 7. Nbxd2 exd4 8. e5 Ng4 9. h3 Nh6 10. Nb3 c5 11. Qe2 O-O 12. Rc1 Nd7 13. Bd3 Re8 14. O-O Qe7 15. Rfe1
bigpeta 18-Sep-11, 04:17	3 candidate moves Rb8 getting behind the b pawn as it pushes next to b6 and getting away from the diagonal where the Q can fork it from e4 b6 bolstering c5 but allowing Bxh7 and we cannot recapture as after Kxh7 Qe4+ wins the R g6 blocking the attack on h7, creates black square weakness in front of the K. But white does not have a dsb.
dmaestro 18-Sep-11, 11:46	I was thinking ..Rb8 We need to free ourselves from the white threats on e4 and that prevent ...b6. Our previous move put enough pressure on the e-file while preventing Ng5 to keep us safe, now we need to consolidate while we can to release the positional bind.
gcah2006 18-Sep-11, 23:21	15... b6 would be pointless. I don't believe we need to give up a pawn still, so I would rule b6 immediately. 15... Rb8 looks like it would drop a pawn to 16. Qc2, with pressure on both c5 and h7. 15... g6 gives us an opportunity to play b6 next move too. It restricts his reasonably strong LSB, which is good while ours is ineffective. Unless someone finds a stronger alternative, or improved analysis, I shall be voted for 15... g6.
damalfi 19-Sep-11, 02:13	g6? I seems the best. We have a lot of problems to solve, here. b6 would be the major step in order to consolide our position. It allows the dsb to develop on b7, and, more important, to our knight to go to f8, from where it shields us e6, that is the "surprise break" white can throw in at any time, and we have to be constantly aware about what happens if white does it. This is because e6 is the only white move I can see that can "surprise" me, except Qc2, that sets a fork, as pointed. Other potentially dangerous white moves are Ng5 (still not active because of Qxg5, but again, we have to be aware all the time of the effect of relieving the queen from the defence of e6, since it can be a way for white to find a sac or a crushing combination. The other is Bc4, that adds pressure on d6. How dangerous e6 can be for us? This is not clear, since even after Bxd6+ (say), Kh8 seems to hold. Now, if white moves e6, can we use this same white pawn to block his lines? That would be playing f6. We will be able to do that when the knight won't be on d7, and it has to be moved BEFORE white plays e6 (otherwise N moves, and e6xf7+ most likely crusches us). Nf6 prevents us from playing f6, so it is not sure at all it would be the best square for the knight, that is well placed, somewhat sadly, on Nf8. After that, we can choose to use the lsb to defend e6, or to be developed in that square, blocking the white's threats once for all. So it is not even sure that it will be the best thing for us to get the lsb on b7, not even with the chance to do that after b6. Nf8 cannot be played now if c5 is not defended first. And the best way to do it, b6 (I can't see any other way to free the queen and the knight), cannot be played until the Qe4 fork is prevented. So the white forks with the queen are to be prevented, first. As correctly pointed, Rb8, b6 and Nf8 cannot be played right now. g6 seems "the" move. Now, what counters does it have? "It weakens our king's defence", theory says. But what does it mean exactly in the current circumstances? After e6, fxe6 leaves g6 without one of its defences, and the possibilies of a Bxg6 sac, or just Bc4 (pinning the piece to the king) at some point turn on. Let's see: 15... g6, 16. e6, fxe6, 17. Qxe6+, QxQ, 18. RxQ and we cannot RxR because of Bc4, winning the exchange BxR since our king is behind it. Moreover, the c5 pawn needs to be defended, and we have to save the rook. No good. So we have to foresee that white CAN go e6 now, until we don't find a better answer to it. Which is hard. The knight has to move or be lost, so Nf6. And we lose because after e6xf7+ we cannot take Nxf7 because of QxQ, RxQ, RxR, that wins a rook. And we cannot play Qxf7 because of Bc4, pinning it (to save form the pin we have to drop a rook). We should play Kxf7 and try to hold the position after (say) Ng5+, and if Kf8, QxQ, RxQ, RxR, KxR, Rxc5! and the d4 pawn drops too... this is the best possible outcome UNLESS WHITE finds a way to impove it. And I will bet that he has. For example, simply playing 16. e6, Nf6, 17. Nxc5... winning for sure the d4 pawn. So g6 will lead us near to disaster. Can I see something better? Kf8? It drops h7, but we can exchange it gladly for a tempo to play b7. White has Qc2, too, and after b6, we are more or less safe. So I vote for Kf8 or Kh8, as the correct way to release from the white forks, dropping h7 but holding the center. Unless you guys find something else.
easy19 19-Sep-11, 17:09	8 hours remaining. ................... before i make the move
gcah2006 19-Sep-11, 17:41	1. ... g6 2. e6 fxe6 3. Qxe6+ Qxe6 4. Rxe6 Rxe6 5. Bc4 b6 6. Bxe6+ Nf7 7. Bd5 Rb8 Although we are undeveloped and most of White's pieces are better positioned, I don't think White has a massive attack that we should be afraid of. And we maintain our pawn advantage. I'm sticking with g6, I think.
easy19 19-Sep-11, 23:28	21 hours on the clock left and the vote is not clear to me. so ill make the move wen i get back from work 8 hrs
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