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CHESS PUZZLE #3926

Added by:nuntar
Added on:25-Apr-08
Description:A little endgame trick that everyone should know.
Difficulty:
online chess puzzle #3926
Attempts:1937
Solved:949 (48%)
Black to move, mate in 2
Comments: (35) » LastGo to last comment
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jamesprincex
01-Nov-11, 04:39

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Is this a one or two move mate
Unless I am confusing the orientation of the white pawns, surely black queen to f8 or d8 gives mate in one move?
wodstock
01-Nov-11, 04:57

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One move mate - cmon
k1ngfish
01-Nov-11, 05:00

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Yes you are confusing the orientation of the white pawns. Qd8 would allow the white pawn on g7 to advance to g8 and be promoted, whilst also blocking check. Qf8 would allow the white pawn to take the queen and also be promoted.
smitwaa
01-Nov-11, 05:01

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Note the orientation of the board.
At the start of the game, black rook occupies square h8. Therefore white pawn can only move to g8. The 2 move checkmate is therefore valid, as Qf8 would be followed by Pg8 and exchange for a Queen.
phonybenoni
01-Nov-11, 05:11

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Better yet, 1...Qf8+ would be followed by 2.gxf8Q.

Puzzles where Black wina are always presented from Black's point of view. So the square in the bottom left is h8, not a1, and the White pawns are moving "down" the board. Note the letter guides along the edges of the board.

I find it confusing too, but many prefer this set-up.
smitwaa
01-Nov-11, 05:44

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Thanks Phonybenoni, I missed the capture.
Only excuse for me is that I was disoriented!
roddack
01-Nov-11, 05:52

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Stupid disorientation
howru
01-Nov-11, 07:07

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Remember that the puzzles orient the board with whatever color you are, so opponents pawns always move toward you. There is no confusion here if you stick to your knowledge of how to play chess.

It's like learning to drive a manual car when you've driven automatic all your life: don't be so occupied by shifting that you forget to steer!  
tdwhoka
01-Nov-11, 08:00

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You could also just set up the same position with colors reversed and white to move. Then no one would be confused.
howru
01-Nov-11, 08:30

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@tdwhoka
Not so... because if you are white, black's pawns would still move toward you. Either way, the pawns move toward you.
kpnone
01-Nov-11, 08:55

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There is nothing to be confused about. Its some of the basic rules of chess. The puzzle doesn't need to change because you had a brian-freeze on the rules.
chess-ticles
01-Nov-11, 09:39

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People -- it's important to realize that depending on the length of time you spend studying the board, there is a certain statistical probability concerning the amount of information that you have seen and processed. In other words, if you are stumped than it's because mathematically you have not spent enough time studying the board! I certainly benefit from group discussions such as these but oftentimes it is wiser to spend more time studying the board yourself before posting questions.
eelke1
01-Nov-11, 09:55

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nice puzzle!
saigashooter
01-Nov-11, 12:08

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very easy, but still nice!
edegales
01-Nov-11, 16:10

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the trick is to find black's move that DOESN'T allow white to promote... (hint)...
terminaterthing
01-Nov-11, 16:53

Comment deleted on 07-Nov-11, 19:39.
edegales
01-Nov-11, 17:09

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Come on, people, read the comments. If you still think it's a one move checkmate you need to look a little bit harder...
smarticalz
01-Nov-11, 20:29

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difficulty level
1.5 stars yet only 49% of people can solve it. something is wrong with the rating system
sonuvatsyayan
01-Nov-11, 21:18

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IN STARTING , I ALSO CONFUSED BUT NEXT I SA D8 POSITION, AND THE PUZZLE SOLVED
baghwan24
01-Nov-11, 21:39

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the move
This is a one move checkmate
archiphile
01-Nov-11, 22:00

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takes more than two to mate
If instead of kb2 one moves pawn to a3...there's no mate in two.
lavacouch
01-Nov-11, 23:21

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@archiphile
there are no pawns on the 'a file'
fezzik
01-Nov-11, 23:37

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Puzzle Conventions
This puzzle would be easier to understand, and easier to solve if, as with all puzzles, it were White to move and mate (reverse the colors).

If this was an actual game position, then the colors should be preserved. But if this was a constructed puzzle with a conventional mate (not self-mate or some other stylized variant), then white to move and win.
ehtamis
02-Nov-11, 00:11

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about moving
it's not valubale,you can mate in one move in f8 or d8 and when the black quen go to e5 the white GL go h7 and white king can escape
kpnone
02-Nov-11, 06:32

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Why does a puzzle have to be "White To Move"? That makes no sense. Its like telling an artist you can only paint in primary colors.
chess-ticles
02-Nov-11, 09:53

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kphone...have you ever played a game of chess before? only one side can move at a time. and the artist is the creator of the puzzle, not the person solving it...
kpnone
02-Nov-11, 10:05

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@decave

Thats my point. There are some "purists" that seem to think a puzzle should only be created with White Moving to create a checkmate....somehow having black to move (and the board flipped to show the perspective of black) is "against the rules" or "confusing". I call that stupid. The artist, as you state the creator of the puzzle, should have the freedom to present the puzzle as black or white. @fezzik seems to think all puzzles should be "White to move and mate". I have no problem with traditions, but I have a problem with traditions that have no basis in logical reasoning. There is no logical reason why all puzzle should be "White to move". Period.
jamesprincex
02-Nov-11, 13:36

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Clarification
I tried to determine the orientation of the board by clicking on the white pawns which normally indicates their possible moves - alas there was no revealing of their orientation.

If we assume that the software encodes the paradigm that opposing pawns travel towards you, i.e. down the screen, then your argument is tenable.

HOWEVER, given that
(a) possible pawn moves were not shown, and
(b) the two pawns aligned on h7 and g7 are more usually found shielding the king in defence having not moved, and
(c) the arrangement of white king and pawns in the puzzle is entirely hypothetical and not a typical endgame trick as it is EXTREMELY unlikely to occur in a real chess game, then the apparent confusion is understandable.

Thus the 50% who were unable to solve the puzzle are the 50% who applied my logic and should not be given a 'high brow' attitude...
chess-ticles
02-Nov-11, 14:48

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kpnone,

I apologize, i didn't see fezzik's comment. i agree with you completely. if one only made puzzles with white to move than theoretically he/she would be excluding 1/2 of the possible positions (in the trillions) that were available to them.
kpnone
02-Nov-11, 14:57

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@jamesprincex

The pawns ARE showing their possible moves. The problem is that the h7 pawn is blocked (by the white king) and the g7 pawn is pinned by the black queen.

Regardless of what you see typical or not, the fact is the white pawns always move towards the 8th row and the black towards the 1st row.
kpnone
02-Nov-11, 15:05

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Look. I'm not saying its not confusing at first, but the initial confusing aspect does not make the puzzle bad or mean that only "White to Move" puzzles should be created. Many players on this site would immediately dismiss the puzzle as stupid or wrong rather than figure it out. In many cases, the players who say the puzzle is "wrong" don't take the time to actually study the board.

About half of the daily puzzles on this site have some person claiming they can solve the puzzle better when they can't. Rather than tooting their own horn, people should study the board/game to make themselves better...and appreciate the artistic approach of puzzles (both easy and difficult).
phonybenoni
02-Nov-11, 16:19

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It is the solver's responsibility to take into account all the conditions of the puzzle. Carelessness may be induced by the puzzle, but is always the fault of the solver. Indeed, if these puzzle are approached as a learning opportunity, careful study of the conditions is part of the learning process.

Remember, a computer has checked these positions for basic soundness. If the solver thinks there's a mate in one, they should take that as a clue that they are under a misapprehension.

By the way, if the position were actually oriented with White at the bottom but Black still to move, it would be a ridiculous situation that would never occur in a game. White's last move would have to have been the blunder Kb1-a1 (possibly capturing a knight on that square), instead of winning by taking the queen on c3.
howru
02-Nov-11, 18:37

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holy crap... this thread is ridiculous. Puzzles are NOT this confusing.
terminaterthing
07-Nov-11, 19:38

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black is trying to get his pawns turned into queens people look a little harder
cdeburca
23-Dec-11, 14:52

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jamesprincex - while initial confusion is understandable, once you look at the full board - and in particular, the numbers along the side - it's obvious which way the pawns are going.

And this is a more common endgame tactic than you might think. Only a couple of months ago, I reached a Q v 3P ending; my opponent's pawns were advanced and connected. I'd just queened, hence the seemingly excessive material imbalance. I used a similar trick to win the game. A couple of years ago, when I was ignorant of this general trick (specifically, pinning the pawn onto the king so it can't move), I threw away a win against someone 250 points higher (getting "only" a draw). So it is a trick worth knowing.
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