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CHESS PUZZLE #5226

Added by:kingdawar
Added on:14-Jul-08
Description:Based on Gyula Sax - Valery Borisovich Salov, Rotterdam 1989.
Difficulty:
online chess puzzle #5226
Attempts:1291
Solved:983 (76%)
Black to move, mate in 5
Comments: (29) » LastGo to last comment
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noob81
18-Oct-12, 04:38

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way too obvious and straitforward. Also a small hint for Kingdawar: using of full names (with patronymics) is very formal in Russian and limited to very special situations, game titles are usually written like "Sax - Salov" or "G. Sax - V. Salov". "Gyula Sax - Valery Salov" is also acceptable, but including "Borisovich" is just plain ridiculous.
No offence intended whatsoever. Well, everyone on GK agrees that you're by far the best contributor to Puzzles section
donfernando
18-Oct-12, 06:54

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¨ridiculous¨ its not the word
i might say that using full names is ´´VERY FORMAL´´, the word would be ´´INFORMAL

hello to kingdawar
tugger
18-Oct-12, 07:53

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Patronymics sounds like a very formal word to me. I had to look it up.
noob81
18-Oct-12, 08:12

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to donfernando
I don't quite follow, you can express yourself in your native language if it helps
donfernando
18-Oct-12, 08:23

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to noob81
hi, i just wanted to say: that using ´´ridiculous´´ it might be offensive

have a nice day
macheide
18-Oct-12, 08:34

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It's an excellent puzzle for this section, period.
yadasampati
18-Oct-12, 08:44

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What is ridiculous ...
... is saying that a puzzle, classified as "easy" and meant to encourage beginners, is "too obvious and straightforward"
... is criticizing someone because he spells out the players full names
sidthekid
18-Oct-12, 09:07

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Well said yada,
Exactamente, using the formal names *if it so, will no doubt make it easier for anyone interested to search for the player and their associated games.
kingdawar
18-Oct-12, 09:24

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Chronologically...
Well I think it was more or less as follows: first I realized writing "Bobby Fischer" is not providing the correct information, his name is "Robert James Fischer", not his popular nickname (similar to "Billy" or "Bill" instead of "William"). I also intend to provide the same information for the same player for every puzzle. So I looked up all my Fischer puzzles and changed it into Robert James Fischer. Then I realized Sam Lloyd is neither that nor Sam Loyd but actually Samuel Loyd. So I changed every Loyd entry for uniformity considerations. There are many other composers of whom second names are known. There are players of whom the name is given as "Tigran L. Petrosian", then why not take some time to find out what's behind this initial? (Levonovich) Then I also knew that Max Euwe is not actually Max Euwe but Machgielis Euwe. So I changed that too. And then there were guys such as Kasparov of which I knew, that like Fischer, they had second names (Garry Kimovich Kasparov).

Now I know most won't care one way or the other, and that it does seem a bit over the top at times and probably I do make mistakes as the only source I have is the Internet. I do this mainly for my own archiving purposes, i.e. it is more convenient for myself to retrieve GameKnot puzzles this way. But I am not entirely consistent either, "Miroslav Havel" (today's other frontpage puzzle) is actually also a pseudonym (for Miroslav Kostal) which a short search reveals.

On a final note, I agree this puzzle is "too easy" (and less enjoyable because of the Qxf2+/Rxf2+ choice) but the game shows how one 2600+ grandmaster wracked another 2600's kingside. The solver, who would never have thought himself of being strong enough to defeat such renown players, happily joins in to deliver the final punches. (naturally it remains a question how solidly the leading-up play would have been conducted by the solver, but provided with the full game information it is easy enough to copy/paste this into your favorite search engine and replay and think through the entire game)

*disclaimer: quite probably this recap is not chronologically nor factually correct (I have always added Max Euwe as Machgielis), basically none of my memories of thoughts are, but I believe this provides some considerations I made.
una_amin
18-Oct-12, 09:25

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Easy puzzles in the Easy Puzzle Section??
Whatever next?
hcajg77
18-Oct-12, 09:31

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kingdawar
How long did it take you to type out that comment?
kingdawar
18-Oct-12, 10:14

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oops
Should have taken five seconds extra to write "renowned"  
pancakepalace
18-Oct-12, 10:20

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According to chessgames entry www.chessgames.com the position in this puzzle is not correct as there should be an extra black pawn on e4 making it a mate in 4 since the white Queen cannot interpose itself on e2.
yadasampati
18-Oct-12, 10:21

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Thanks for all your efforts kingdawar
Not only for delivering so many nice puzzles, but also for taking your time to respond to the comments seriously and explaining your motivations
noob81
18-Oct-12, 10:21

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I see your point Kingdawar, I was just pointing out (as a native Russian speaker) that it looks really weird and (imho) necessary once in one hundred thousand cases to differentiate Tigran Vartanovich Petrosyan and Tigran Leonovich Petrosyan. And I don't agree it improves googling experience - quite the opposite in fact, as most sources do not include this thingy (which some incorrectly call "second name") - just try to google for ""Valery Salov" chess" and ""Valery Borisovich Salov" chess".
kingdawar
18-Oct-12, 10:24

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Oh dear!
Thank you for the keen eye. That's really quite terrible. If only I had found out yesterday, I could have deleted it. Now it is one of the frontpage puzzles, I am not allowed to make amends  
pancakepalace
18-Oct-12, 10:28

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It's OK. I just realized you wrote "based on..." in your description, so it's all true.
noob81
18-Oct-12, 10:33

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to yadasampati
A) "too obvious and straightforward" - a puzzle may be very easy but still beautiful, Kingdawar himself posted hundreds of puzzles like that. This puzzle is very easy but not beautiful because it's "too obvious and straightforward". That's it.
  "is criticizing someone because.." - I wasn't exactly criticizing, merely pointed out that it was quite unnatural way to spell Russian names.
You guys'd better read messages carefully before answering them
kingdawar
18-Oct-12, 10:41

Comment deleted on 18-Oct-12, 10:42.
kingdawar
18-Oct-12, 10:43

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No, I edited that information "Based on..." in after reading and verifying the contents of your comment. But I cannot delete the puzzle, change its position nor the solution.
I added puzzle #79437 which contains the correct position (even if not any more fun, at least it has the correct position!). Now the task is to find the place where I found this incorrect position to exculpate myself.   But probably I am the one to blame for leaving out the pawn - and I am to blame anyway for not properly doing the small task of comprehensive background research   I fear I have posted many more such puzzles where mistakes have slipped in so keep your eyes open and please let me know where you find inconsistencies.

As regards to the writing of (too) full names, I think it is a matter of taste in the few languages I know - some like it, some might think it too official. And, as I tried to explain, by presenting the information in this way I can sort out my own puzzles more effectively.
yadasampati
18-Oct-12, 10:53

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Reading carefully ...
... made me encounter the words "way too obvious and straitforward" and "ridiculous". That is plain criticism. But i stop reacting to this because first of all i think this whole point of names is not worthwhile, and secondly i think this is a nice puzzle for beginners and for them it is neither "obvious" nor "straightforward"
pancakepalace
18-Oct-12, 11:03

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It's a draw. 1 point for noob81's "patronymics" and 1 point for kingdawar's "exculpate".
sidthekid
18-Oct-12, 12:53

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noob, google search
Yes according to my search engine I get a lot more matches for Valery Salov chess than I do for Valery Borisovich Salov chess but then on the other hand I get even more matches for Valery Borisovich chess! So how to know which name to search under! Better the longer name for a more refined and relevant search?
yadasampati
18-Oct-12, 13:02

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From a full name ...
... you can always go to a shorter version, but not the other way around.

By the way instead of "googling" (i hate that word) i can recommend the search engine https://ixquick.com .
It respects users' privacy, instead of dictator google
macheide
18-Oct-12, 14:29

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yadasampati
Very well for your privacy concerns. I recommend also www.duckduckgo.com, I don't use Google search engine any more. It's an unethical company.
yadasampati
18-Oct-12, 14:40

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macheide
Thanks for the tip. I will take a look. Yes it is indeed a very unethical company and it also worries me that about the whole world is fed with their search results. Where is the diversity? No more google (log-ego) for me  
jdorp
18-Oct-12, 17:59

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?!
It seems to me that we are facing a very complex problem after all...
fezzik
18-Oct-12, 19:24

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Nitpicking continued...
The puzzle is ~2 stars difficulty, and 1.5 stars for aesthetic value.

I took beauty points off the more or less pointless interposition of the Queen before I read that the position was incorrectly transcribed. I wasn't really aware of the original game.

As for patronymics, I agree completely with noob. Take a look at how Russians refer to games played by Garry Kasparov, Anatoly Karpov, or any other player. Yes, the patronymic is sometimes mentioned, but *not* in the game references.

This could be a small problem if ever there was a database of positions created. Anyone who has seen the mess chessbase has made of various spellings of players knows that.

But as I said at the outset, this is just nitpicking. Even tho noob is correct, it probably isn't worth the space and time to complain about it.

Thanks, kingdawar heinzcat puzzler, for making these puzzles.
blitzkov
18-Oct-12, 22:00

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I try to get the full names of my puzzles from games ( now I do.) cause kingdawar is my mentor, I'll listen to his suggestions and try to do what he says. he his the king of puzzles (at least on GK   )
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