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wuzzer
6/24/2002
14:52:32 |
 Subject: two bishops
Message:
can you mate with two bishops and king versus king?
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brunetti
6/24/2002
15:19:58 | Sure
Message:
provided that they are one light- and one dark-squares :)
Alex
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taoistlunatic
6/24/2002
15:42:47 | definitely!
Message:
This is one endgame technique everyone should learn, as you may come into such a situation over the board and if you have no idea how to do it, it may be difficult to work it out under the time control.
The same with bishop+knight+king vs. king which is the hardest checkmate to force in the game of chess, but it can be forced if the technique is perfect.
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spiral
6/24/2002
16:28:12 | It depends...
Message:
Also how skilled your opponent is at avoiding that mate, good players can hold out long enough for the draw.
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wuzzer
6/25/2002
10:00:34 | I know
Message:
the technique of B+N+K vs K you have to force the king into the corner with the same colour of your Bishop.
What's the technique for two Bishops? Is there a web page about it?
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brunetti
6/25/2002
10:05:54 | Here it is:
Message:
www.ex.ac.uk/~dregis/DR/mates.html
All simple mates, with technique, excercises, suggestions...
Alex
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wuzzer
6/25/2002
10:13:21 | thanks alot
Message:
just wanted to say : 'allready found it myselve' :) but you gave another site so I'll make a comparison.
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atrifix
6/25/2002
12:35:45 | Basic Mates
Message:
B+N+K vs. K is nowhere near the hardest mate to force in the game, and the technique does not even need to be close to perfect (although it usually is). Once you have learned how to play this endgame, it usually becomes trivial, because there's simply nothing the weaker side can do to stop you, regardless of skill. I find other endgames (Q vs. R, or even worse, Q vs. R + P) much more difficult to play, and I would say the hardest basic mate in the game is K + N + N vs. K + P, provided the weaker king is in the center.
Atrifix
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tulkos
6/25/2002
16:40:16 | what about 3 N vs king?
Message:
there are many little endgames,Q vs B,R vs B,and so on.
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taoistlunatic
6/25/2002
20:24:09 | atrifix
Message:
the mates you mention while being more difficult are not always forced, sometimes the defense can force a draw.
While, K+B+N vs. K is ALWAYS forced, excuse me for not being clear enough.
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atrifix
6/26/2002
04:59:45 | These endgames
Message:
I have mentioned are almost always won for the stronger side; only in extremely rare cases are they drawn (usually if the weaker side's pawn is far advanced or the weaker side has an immediate stalemate). Even KBB vs. K can be drawn if a certain position arises (for example: White Kf6, Bh8, Bg6; Black Kg8); but these positions are so rare that KBB vs. K is usually classified as a win, along with Q vs. R, Q vs. R+P, NN vs. P, etc. Sometimes, specifically in the case of NN vs. P, the 50 move rule must be suspended or extended to a 100 move rule, but it is ALWAYS a win provided the Pawn is behind Troitsky's line. Whether or not the win can be proven by the stronger side is a question of endgame technique.
As tulkos mentions, there are a few mini-endgames, but most of these are trivial; for example, KNNN vs. K arises so infrequently that it is practically superflous, and the winning technique is virtually the same of KNN vs. KP, only easier. R vs. B is almost always a draw, so it should not be counted as a 'mate' (but is worthy of study).
On a side note, one of the hardest drawn endings to draw is that of KRB vs. KR. This is usually a draw, but there are plenty of opportunities to go wrong, and can sometimes be won against weaker opposition.
Atrifix
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brunetti
6/26/2002
11:39:32 | NNvsP
Message:
"specifically in the case of NN vs. P, the 50 move rule must be suspended or extended to a 100 move rule, but it is ALWAYS a win provided the Pawn is behind Troitsky's line."
The 50 move rule CANNOT be suspended or extended, in regular chess; and your ALWAYS+provided is subtle: I can write: the KR vs. KB ending is ALWAYS a win, provided that... etc... :)
Alex
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atrifix
6/26/2002
12:38:13 | Granted
Message:
I made a few assumptions with NN vs. P--if the pawn is behind Troitsky's line, it is a win; if not, it is usually drawn.
Perhaps I am not fully aware of current tournament rules, I'm certainly not up to speed on the latest developments. My understanding was that in very rare situations (for example, some NN vs. P situations require 60-70 moves to win with perfect technique), FIDE would extend the 50 move rule to 100 moves. Perhaps this rule has been changed?
Atrifix
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brunetti
6/26/2002
12:56:45 | Yes
Message:
It was applied during 80's: 75 moves for some positions; now it's 50 for any kind of position.
Alex
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