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sodiumattack
8/22/2003
08:31:39
[ report this post ] |
 Subject: Earliest stalemate
Message:
I do not know if it is known... but, what is the min number of moves to have a stalemate, with the collaboration of the two sides?
I mean, the min number of moves to have a mate is 2: 1. f3 e5 2. g4 Qh4#.
Is there a method to know the min number of moves to achieve a position of stalemate?
If anyone want, we can try it empirically. Just challange me for an unrated game!
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pebbles
8/22/2003
10:01:01
[ report this post ] | Ten moves
Message:
1.e3 a5 2.Qh5 Ra6 3.Qxa5 h5 4.Qxc7 Rah6 5.h4 f6 6.Qxd7+ Kf7 7.Qxb7 Qd3 8.Qxb8 Qh7 9.Qxc8 Kg6 10.Qe6 stalemate.
Solution by Sam Lloyd.
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sodiumattack
8/22/2003
10:48:23
[ report this post ] |
Message:
Thank you very much pebbles!
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kai_sim
8/23/2003
02:54:57
[ report this post ] | sorry pebbles
Message:
doesn't work, try again
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pebbles
8/23/2003
04:02:04
[ report this post ] | kai_sim
Message:
Why do you think it doesn't work? All moves are legal and the final position is stalemate.
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superblunder
8/23/2003
09:07:57
[ report this post ] | ???
Message:
pebbles, ummm The black rooks and the black queen still have legal moves, so it isn't stalemate.
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olympio
8/23/2003
10:26:43
[ report this post ] | jfdsa
Message:
kai_sim and superblunder
i'm afraid you're both incorrect. the line given by pebbles is correct.. i checked it only a couple minutes after he posted it and it was a very elegant solution. the black queen and the black rooks are both trapped completely
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pebbles
8/23/2003
10:29:25
[ report this post ] | ??? superblunder
Message:
What legal moves do the Black Queen and Black Rooks have?
The Black Q is on h7 (see moves 7 and 8); one Black R is on h8, while the other is on h6 (see moves 2 and 4).
The Black Q has no moves since it is completely enclosed by Black pieces and the border of the chessboard: N on g8, R on h8, R on h6, P on g7, K on g6.
The Rook on h8 has no move since g8 and h7 are occupied by a Knight and a Queen respectively, which both happen to be Black (so that they can't be captured by the Rook :)) ).
The other Rook is on h6, where it is surrounded by a King, a Queen and a Pawn.
So tell me, what legal moves can Black make??
Apart from the solution I gave, it is of course extremely easy to find another solution in 10 moves, or also a solution in 10 moves where it is White who is stalemated.
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superblunder
8/23/2003
10:41:21
[ report this post ] | oops, sorry, pebbles
Message:
I have an old chess board and the '2' looks like a '7', I had the black queen on h2 instead of h7, brilliant solution.
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kai_sim
8/23/2003
11:44:51
[ report this post ] | pardon my ignorance
Message:
... 6.Qxd7+ Kf7
for some reason i did:
6.Qxd8+ instead and then wasn't able to explain how to move 7.Qxb7...
funny is that i tried 3 times in a row with 6.Qxd8 :((
nice research!
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brulla
8/26/2003
03:56:01
[ report this post ] | Only...
Message:
nobody would play like that in a game. As sodiumattack wrote, "with the collaboration of the two sides".
Does anyone know the earliest stalemate in a real game?
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sy_or_bust
8/26/2003
04:48:25
[ report this post ] | Are you kidding?
Message:
You can't force an early stalemate, or almost any stalemate for that matter. Not with any techniques currently understood in chess.
The answer would depend on your definition of "real game". Some games/openings have super-fast liquidation and head quickly into "proven-drawn" king and pawn endgames where, for example, you may have a king on a8 against a king and a-pawn, drawn by stalemate.
Of course you cannot force such a position and hardly can argue that it's "best play" or a "real game". Are you looking for a historically "serious" chess match (i.e. grandmasters) playing to stalemate? Or something theoretical?
You won't find the latter.
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sodiumattack
8/26/2003
05:27:27
[ report this post ] | Earliest stalemate in a game
Message:
Sibilio - Mariotti, Ravenna 1982
1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e5 c5 4.b4 cxb4 5.d4 Nh6 6.a3 bxa3 7.c3 Nf5 8.Nxa3 Nc6 9.Nb5 a6 10.g4 Bd7 11.Bg5 Be7 12.gxf5 axb5 13.fxe6 fxe6 14.Rxa8 Qxa8 15.Rg1 Qa3 16.Bxb5 Bxg5 17.Rxg5 Qxc3+ 18.Kf1 O-O 19.Bxc6 Bxc6 20.Kg2 Ba4 21.Qe2 Bc2 22.Ne1 Be4+ 23.f3 Rxf3 24.Nxf3 Bxf3+ 25.Qxf3 Qd2+ 26.Kh3 Qxg5 27.Qf8+ Kxf8 ½-½
Here is it.
Probably it is still this.
(www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/records/records.htm)
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pebbles
8/28/2003
20:51:07
[ report this post ] | Another solution
Message:
A different solution of the stalemate in 10 moves is as follows:
1.c3 d5 2.Qb3 h5 3.Qxb7 Bf5 4.Qxa7 Bh7 5.Qxb8 Ra6 6.Qxc7 Rah6 7.h4 f6 8.Qxd8+ Kf7 9.Qxd5+ Kg6 10.Qe6 stalemate.
And here it is White who gets stalemated:
1.c4 e5 2.h4 d5 3.Qb3 dxc4 4.e4 cxb3 5.axb3 Qxh4 6.Ra4 Qxh1 7.g4 Bxg4 8.Nf3 Bxf3 9.Na3 Bxa3 10.Rb4 Bxb4 stalemate.
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brobishkin
8/28/2003
22:25:07
[ report this post ] | Hmmm...
Message:
I can't help but wonder why this amazement with the quickest stalemate is getting so much attention... I have always taught that you should always play to win, even if all you need to win a tournament is a draw... You should never play for a draw...
It's an interesting subject (stalemates), but it's like learning the quickest mate (you'll never see them in a tournament)... Once you learn it, then what?... I would have to agree with "sy or bust", you can't force a stalemate... All these stalemates discussed here are played with flaws...
Bro...
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dozer
8/29/2003
00:19:20
[ report this post ] | hmm...
Message:
These problems just force thinking differently, when trying to find solutions on chessboard. It's extremly hard to play moves that effectively hangs ones pieces, even if one knows that both sides collaborate. It's nice to see solutions like this from time to time, so ones mind doesn't stick too much to the rules of the "chessicly correct moves". At least it stimulates my creativity...
Kind Regards,
Dozer
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chessnovice
8/29/2003
13:00:50
[ report this post ] | ...
Message:
You'd probably see these games more often if they abolished the draw offer.
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mladen
8/30/2003
13:28:21
[ report this post ] | I know brobishkin is not impressed, but ...
Message:
How about the earliest stalemate with all the pieces still on the board?
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kapinov
8/30/2003
13:49:08
[ report this post ] | or..
Message:
Earliest stalemate with 8 Queens on the board? :)
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pebbles
8/30/2003
15:37:49
[ report this post ] | Stalemate without captures
Message:
This would probably take 12 moves, for example:
1.a4 e5 2.Ra3 d6 3.h3 Be6 4.d4 c5 5.Qd3 f5 6.Qg3 Be7 7.Qh2 e4 8.Rg3 Qa5+ 9.Nd2 Bb3 10.c4 Bh4 11.f3 e3 12.d5 f4 stalemate
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pebbles
8/30/2003
16:09:53
[ report this post ] | 8 queens :))
Message:
With 8 queens the puzzle is not easy to solve, but it takes exactly 15 moves to obtain a position with 8 queens on the board (but no stalemate).
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