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steverand67
12/01/2007
18:25:20
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 Subject: Acceptable or Absurd?
Message:
I went to a chess tournament recently, and I ran across an unusual situation. In the fifth round, I was 4 had four points and my opponent had 3.5 points. I gained an advantage out of the opening and won a pawn. I then got discombobulated in the middle game and lost that material advantage, although I maintained good position. With material even and slightly behind on time, (15 min. to 20 min.) I accepted a queen trade to enter an endgame where each side has 2 rooks, a knight, and as I recall 4 pawns. After about ten moves or so, my opponent made a horrible blunder that lost a rook and a knight, effectively handing me the win.
After I took the knight with check, about to win the rook, my opponent, without saying anything, extended his hand to me. I shook it, believing that he was resigning. However, as we were resetting the board, he furtively said to the tournament director, "draw." The TD began walking away to record the score, and I called him back. My opponent told the TD that he had said "draw" soon before shaking my hand, and that by accepting the handshake I had accepted. I argued that I had not heard him say anything, and that he had been resigning when he shook my hand. Fortunately, the TD ruled in my favor, telling us to continue the game. After a couple of moves my opponent tipped his king over and audibly uttered, "I resign." I was a bit disappointed when he did so, as I'd been looking forward to humiliating him by taking all his pieces in return for what I considered an attempt to cheat me out of a win.
I acknowledge, that I should have not have taken his hand without hearing him admit defeat or tipping his king over. Nevertheless, I think that what he did is unsportsmanlike, as well as immature. Am I right, or is his behavior acceptable?
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chessnovice
12/01/2007
18:58:06
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
While unethical, the tactic of extending a hand without clarifying the details of the agreement is common. I remember, while at a tournament, a friend of mine told me about a game he witnessed where an up-and-comer was playing against an IM.
The IM extended his hand and said, "Congratulations". The other player shook his hand, only later to discover that he meant "Congratulations for drawing against an International Master" while arguing his case to the TD. The anecdote ended with the decision going in the IM's favor, though I can't personally attest for the validity of the story.
Nevertheless, I took the story to heart. In that very round, my opponent extended his hand silently. I asked him, "You resign?" before shaking his hand, and he said yes.
I don't find the tactic agreeable, but psychological warfare and rule-interpreting tricks are only to be expected during OTB tournament play. That's why it's important to always be prepared for anything they might pull, on the chessboard or off.
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muppyman
12/02/2007
00:31:34
[ report abuse ] | acceptable??
Message:
of course his behaviour was acceptable..... to him. You found his behaviour unsportsmanlike and immature? Perhaps it was, but then some might consider that your reaction in "looking forward to humiliating him" was also a touch immature. I have never read the rule that requires an opponent to be sportsmanlike or mature. Chess of course is a game of war, and "all's fair in love and war" as they say.We are not the arbiters of our opponents' actions or attitudes.
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rt4sm
12/02/2007
04:28:50
[ report abuse ] | muppyman...
Message:
The difference between Steverands 'immaturity' and his opponents was that Steve didn't display it towards his opponent, so how can you blame Steve? His opponent was clearly trying to cheat, and your sticking up for him? You might as well say 'players should be allowed to use chess programs, because we're not the arbiters of our opponents actions or attitudes.' If everyone in OTB had your attitude, OTB games would be very unpleasant to say the least.
People like you argue 'it's all mind games.' Mind games is one thing, but clear violation of rules is another. There's nothing wrong in using mind games to gain an advantage, but attempts to directly violate the rules crosses the line. Rules are there to be followed, and people who don't follow those rules should be banned, just like in any competition.
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tim_b
12/02/2007
06:33:21
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Message:
Chess is a war game, but the battle should stay on the battlefield - the board. A handshake in my opinion is supposed to be the ultimate friendly/conciliatory gesture; to abuse it in this way is to cheapen it and make it pointless.
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dr_dread
12/02/2007
10:28:07
[ report abuse ] | next time,do not....
Message:
ever reset a board until you call over the TD first.I've ran across this many times in my 30 + years of USCF tourney play.This can change a TD's mind,even with record keeping.I've even personally ran across 2 players one time sitting on my left which were "in" with my opponent and claimed that they "heard" an agreed upon draw...which never did occur.3 against one....and yes,I lost,unjustifiably!Call it unfriendly or whatever,I never shake anyones hand at a tourney during the game,only after the tourney is completly over!
Joe
USCF Master
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buddie
12/02/2007
11:40:09
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Message:
Don't you have to write an " = " on your scoresheet now to indicate the offer of a draw?
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dr_dread
12/02/2007
19:00:53
[ report abuse ] | yes, you write an =
Message:
but as you can see by what steverand67 wrote above,any notations made at that tourney were apparently not looked at by the director,as he/she simply walked away writing the results down.Plus 2 players can write 2 different outcomes on a scoresheet.Keep the board pieces exactly where they are at,and certainly do not begin setting up a new board if there is a controversial game.I don't know all the exact details here,only steve does and i'm guessing to some extent,but i've seen this happen a few times in the past.
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suzyfromflorida
12/03/2007
01:01:08
[ report abuse ] | you're 100% correct
Message:
His behavior was totally unacceptable. He was definitely trying to cheat you. He sounds like a scam artist to me.
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heinzkat
12/03/2007
01:48:57
[ report abuse ] | Amusing
Message:
Not really related, but Saturday I played in a tournament when I had a similar situation. My opponent's position had been lost for a while, and now he sacrificed his last remaining piece, his Rook. I took it, and he extended his hand to me, which I was about to shake, receiving his congratulations, but just before our hands touched, he said 'draw'. So I withdrew my hand and said 'what for?' - turned out he thought he had a 'rambling Rook' - a Rook that can't be taken since it would be stalemate otherwise. But his King still had one move - after I told him to that, it was mate in one.
Diagram: (more or less)
1. ... a5+
2. bxa6 e.p. Rc4+
3. Kxc4 Kg8
4. Re8 mate
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throneseeker
12/03/2007
04:02:53
[ report abuse ] | Game Results
Message:
Been a while since I was in OTB competition but did we not use to indicate the result on our score-sheet, sign it and then then have the opponent sign it, and let the winner (or Black if was a draw) turn in the originals score-sheets(each player retaining a signed copy of the submitted result) to the scorers at the TD table? (And we never reset the pieces without the TD's permission.)
Regards, ThroneSeeker
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steverand67
12/03/2007
17:16:44
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Message:
This was a smaller, non USCF rated tourney, so the official guidelines were loosely observed. Scoring was done via the players approaching the scorer's table and telling him their result. This game was the exception, probably because my opponent probably thought he had better chances of pulling off the draw by telling the TD without my noticing.
Thanks for the input everyone. I was unclear on the "ethics" of the situation, and I appreciate the clarification.
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muppyman
12/04/2007
13:26:10
[ report abuse ] | rt4sm
Message:
Just for clarification, I was not blaming Steve for anything, he did exactly the right thing by not letting the opponent get away with his lame attempt to swindle the game. But I stand by my assertion that we are not the arbiters. Clearly the laws of chess and the tournament directors are the arbiters, not the players themselves. My reference to immaturity was hypothetical and simply was another way of saying, why stoop to the cheat's own level by looking forward to humiliating him in retaliation? It is difficult to humiliate someone who obviously has no scruples. As for my attitude, in a nutshell it is simply this, if a player is of a mind to cheat, he will take any opportunity to do so, regardless of how much I might resent it, so my priority is to stay within the rules, and let the cheats cause their own undoing. I cannot see how that means I "stick up" for them.
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brulla
12/05/2007
03:41:13
[ report abuse ] | Handshake is a handshake...
Message:
... and nothing more. I do not play chess OTB, but I could imagine
to shake the hand and then continue playing, as my opponent has
not made any expression of will. The point, that extending the hand
is "considered" as a sign of resignation is not valid for me.
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rt4sm
12/05/2007
03:42:43
[ report abuse ] | Well...
Message:
You did mention that there's nothing in the rules about having to be sportsmanlike or mature, and steve's evil opponent wasn't either of those, so that seems to be an attempt to defend the opponent. You also don't seem to think it matters very much whether people cheat or not. And you certainly tried to deflect blame onto steve by critisising his 'looking forward to humilating him' thoughts. I can't see how that means steve stooped down to his opponents level, sure it's not exactly friendly, but it's not nearly as bad as cheating. And people who cheat deserve to be humiliated, if steve thought the same thing against honest opponents then you'd have more reason to have a go at him about it.
I agree that the rules are the arbiters and not us. But the opponent broke the rules, so he didn't follow those wonderful arbiters anyway.
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throneseeker
12/05/2007
06:49:07
[ report abuse ] | Jabs and Defense
Message:
Seems to me that jabs and defense are best suited to totally private tells. A simple his behavior is unacceptable / acceptable would be best on the thread. A private tell expressing ones thoughts in greater detail may have been more appropriate for some replies.
Regards, ThroneSeeker
P. S. If I have offended any of you, let me know in a private tell.
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spurtus
12/06/2007
02:57:03
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Message:
When somebody wants to cheat like that, let them, years from now if they ever grow up they will regret it.
I was once conned out a win when ...
- I had a mate in 2.
- There where 2 moves the opponent could make, both ending in mate in 2 clearly.
- I had reminded my young opponent to press his clock several times during the match out of fairness.
- I sat back and could not understand why he deliberating over his move, he was huffing and puffing.
- 10 minutes later he reached his hand out and said I win your flag has fallen.
What a git! I had forgotten to press my clock.
I was astounded, I've won this game yet he is now claiming it as his, a double injustice, of course rules are rules but this guy needs to learn some basic manners.
If somebody lets your car out at a junction, you don't give them the finger!
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rt4sm
12/06/2007
05:18:44
[ report abuse ] | spurtus...
Message:
some people never grow up! I don't like the sound of all these technicalities that your all saying can happen in games to twist the result, makes OTB sound a dodgy practise. Shouldn't an independent person deal with the clocks? I know obviously we're talking amateur tourneys here, but still i'm sure it must be a irritating distraction having to worry about things like clocks.
And spurtus, you really shouldn't remind opponents to stay within the rules like that, it's their problem not yours if their failing to do so. You worry about keeping to the laws yourself and to hell if your opponent loses because he fails to do so. Winning games is the objective not playing Mr Nice Guy!
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chessnovice
12/06/2007
10:00:27
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
Normally I would say that winning isn't as important as your self-respect, but I do have to agree with rt4sm that your opponent's clock is not your responsibility.
In the first tournament I played, I went up against a guy who neglected his clock after every move. I courteously reminded him each time, and my attention to his clock made me miss a glaringly obvious checkmate.
Now, in fairness, I'll point out the opponent's clock only once if he misses it. But if he continues to neglect it, it's his own responsibility. That kind of distraction is not the kind of weight you should have to bear.
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muppyman
12/06/2007
11:45:27
[ report abuse ] | rt4sm,
Message:
don't let these extreme examples of OTB sneakiness and gamesmanship put you off that aspect of chess, these things are very much the exception to the norm. You might well find the different atmosphere of an OTB tournament a refreshing and interesting change from on-line correspondence chess. An opponent sitting across a table from you is a different proposition to a faceless entity half a world away. When I was a boy I thought chess was a boring pastime indulged in by geriatrics with nothing else to do. It's sometimes amazing how trying a new experience can reshape one's perspective.
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spurtus
12/06/2007
13:06:41
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Message:
chessnovice is correct on etiquette, and muppyman is realistic, thanks.
It's a personal thing for me that I will always be fair as possible, I wouldn't know how to behave otherwise. Playing chess doesn't give me an excuse to be something else.
I'm trying to make a point that chess does not need to transcend or interupt your personal values, that would taking the 'game' too far.
Back to the topic, this naughty person lost sight of what I try to describe, they either haven't grown up yet or actually believe chess is war ( or a battle ) literally... Wrong. Bring it on.
Cheers,
Spurt.
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dr_dread
12/06/2007
14:42:05
[ report abuse ] | Oh,I see...
Message:
the tourney was a non rated,and non USCF.This i wasen't aware of.Well then,i can see why there would be problems.Yes alot of bad sportmanship occurrences happen at non rated,non USCF tourneys.I wouldn't even be concerned then.Infact,i'd be laughing about what happened,since it was non rated and there would have been no big loss,even if my opponent got away with it.My OTB tourneys have always been rated USCF.Those I would care greatly about,since admission fee's and losing rated points at USCF tourneys are to be taken alot more seriously.
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steverand67
12/08/2007
09:36:23
[ report abuse ] | dr_dread
Message:
I disagree. I think there should be standards of sportsmanship at any level of chess, and regardless of the importance of the particular tournament or game. Regardless of the money or rating points involved, the objectives (at least to me) are to have fun and win. Bad sportsmanship, such as mentioned above in many interesting posts, has the potential to deprive the victim of that bad sportsmanship of the chance to attain both of those things.
Also, as pointed out above, we were both in good shape after four rounds. I went on to finish 6-0 and win the tournament. Had that game ended in draw, maybe I would have lost the tournament on tie breaks. To imply that since money and rating points were not involved, the incident in question is of no importance, feels like a bit of a stretch, seeing as the game was still of some importance to me.
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bonsai
12/08/2007
11:17:20
[ report abuse ] | If everything else fails...
Message:
Article 12: The conduct of the players
12.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.
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