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outinspace69
9/16/2002
14:08:17 |
 Subject: The Truth
Message:
Evryone keeps speaking of the truth, but nobody really knows any truth. Evrything ius based on perception, things are true from nay different standpoints. The truth that5 we know changes by the second and nothing is sacred. What we know here and today may be different somewhere else at the same time. The truth is just a word that should say, this is how I see it.
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philaretus
9/16/2002
14:17:34 | outinspace69
Message:
I understand (empirical) truth to be the correspondence of propositions with objective reality. So, if you deny truth, you're denying objective reality -- that is, things that exist independently of what anyone thinks about them. Is that the position you actually take?
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outinspace69
9/16/2002
14:28:21 | Yes
Message:
reality is limited only to what we can directly experience. I am not saying that i fully believe thT life is nothing but a dream and that evryone else disappears when they are not in use in my reality but you have to admit that the possibilty is still there and that we know nothing of truth because that possibilty still exists. If that possibility were to be real then all the truths that we have could be wrong. I dont want to say this is highly likely but the fact is we are just not sure....
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bafverfeldt1981
9/16/2002
14:37:52 | aha
Message:
But we must speak in terms of general truths or else our system will collapse.
You can't just say that everyone has his own view- then the talibans could bomb all over the place. Should we respect other people's 'truths' or should we strive against a general truth ;). I think the question is given.
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zoobrenok
9/16/2002
15:05:11 | What is the TRUTH?
Message:
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John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
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Ephesians 4:21
Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.
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1 John 5:6
This is the one who came by water and blood–Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
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John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
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So, what is the TRUTH then?
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legion
9/16/2002
15:58:31 | Outinspace69.
Message:
Maybe your right, maybe your wrong.
So what?
What difference does it make?
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patjackson
9/16/2002
16:50:18 | ZB
Message:
You're truth would be the non-empirical (ie ********) kind.
Only science gives us empirical truths, the rest is mere opinion and speculation.
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philaretus
9/17/2002
04:10:31 | outinspace69
Message:
So, if you deny truth in the empirical sense, this leaves truth in the other sense, that of the consistency of our experiences (wherever they come from) with what we say about them. But if there's nothing outside this, the world becomes identical with our experiences, and truth in the second sense becomes identical with truth in the first sense. All you've done is perform a semantic trick with the meaning of 'reality'. After all, you can't entirely CHOOSE the contents of your consciousness. Thoughts come into your mind that don't depend on you.
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moebile1
9/17/2002
07:51:36 | Yes
Message:
But empirical truth without substance still equals nothing. So then, what is real, tangable truth?
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outinspace69
9/17/2002
08:37:19 | Im going to try to answer evrythign
Message:
To Baf You are right we must beleive in general truth but that is not to say it si the real truth, but it is something we must believe in to get by.
Legion, I love Your Comment it was perfect, Thank You, but i still like to discuss it all
Phil, to begin with your thoughts, they may come to unconciously but they come from whats around you, something that youve seen, heard, oir read about, and isnt the world identical wih our experoiences anyway. to use a recent event the taliban and its followeres have had the experience that the US(True or not) an expereince they had, which they acted upon because it is what they believed to be true. No matter how you want to argue it matters only what angle you look at something at and wether its true or not. Even as far as science goes all we know to be true exists only on this planet so far, somewhere else, it may be different, our governing laws of science may not exist, they may be entirely different. This is no trick of reality it is a fact of life, there is no real truth, it has been created so as to give the illusion of control. i havent been entirely honest in thisa discussion because there is one truth i do believe in, and that is creation, because someone or something has to be here for this to be going on but other than that i beleive there is no real truth. Im not trying to spin reality, what im talking about comes way before we can even discuss reality, we as far as im concerened onlyknow one simple truth as i stated above, and until we get past that reality is impossible to diuscuss
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patjackson
9/17/2002
16:08:06 | mo
Message:
That's my point, the only thing that provides tangible evidence is scientific investigation.
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zoobrenok
9/17/2002
19:45:40 | Re: mo
Message:
What about personal experience?
Remember the tale about Newton coming up with his 3 basic laws?: Newton was sitting under the tree when apple hit him into the head....
Remember tale about Arhimed?: Arhimed put his body into the tub and when he saw how much water went over the tub to the floor, he jumped out of tub with words "Evrika, Evrika" and run to write his law?....
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wolfstrike
9/17/2002
22:40:11 |
Message:
outinspace69:
thats an interesting thoery,but none of its true.
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legion
9/18/2002
07:07:13 | outinspace1802
Message:
<<Even as far as science goes all we know to be true exists only on this planet so far, somewhere else, it may be different, our governing laws of science may not exist, they may be entirely different.>>
I have to pull you up over the above statement chessboy. This statement is clearly not true.
All our observations and evidence tell us that the laws of physics ARE the same, throughout the universe.
There is absolutely NO evidence that the laws are different elsewhere.
Now before someone cites the oft quoted defence - "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - let me suggest that when faced with an abundance of evidence versus no evidence at all, it is, surely, more logical to side with the evidence.
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legion
9/18/2002
07:09:27 | Sorry...
Message:
...outinspace69, I got your name partially wrong in the subject and totally wrong in the post!
Sorry.
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patjackson
9/18/2002
15:16:31 | Personal Experience
Message:
Was in fact personal experiment, viewing a thing first hand, investigating it analysing the findings, understanding what you see.
Those guys saw something they didn't understand, investigated it and made important discoveries, essential scientific facts.
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zoobrenok
9/18/2002
15:32:48 | Re: Personal Experience
Message:
How can we then explain when some have experienced something "super-natural" that science can not explain and probably will never be able to explain?
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patjackson
9/18/2002
16:14:57 | Super-natural
Message:
Occurances are better described as pre-understanding occurances. They are often the product of seeing things that aren't there because you want to (so similar to religion) but in other cases are just yet to be explained.
Consider the willow the wisp phenomena which was found to be cause be spontaneous ignition of swamp gas after years of myth. Spontaneous human combustion has theories about it now too like the wick effect.
Sadly though science has more pressing matters like cancer and aids investigation to investigate why ouija boards miraculously answer questions in a scary way when someone is pushing the glass.
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zoobrenok
9/18/2002
16:20:32 | OK, you still don't understand me..
Message:
I really tried to avoid this, but it seems like yuo really want me to say it by not following my line of thoughts. Not that I am complaining, but still =:-)
How do you explain when someone had AIDS and suddenly no longer has it? Isn't it a personal experience as well?
How do you explain when someone had cancer and suddenly no longer has it? Isn't it a personal experience as well?
How do you explain when someone did not have right hand and suddenly has it? Isn't it a personal experience as well?
How do you explain when someone was driving on a curvy and icy freeway, felt a sleep and woke up just to see his car "steering by itself" to drive him to the safety and realizing that he was sleeping for at least 10 minutes? Isn't it a personal experience as well?
How do you explain when someone died for real, was pronounced dead by doctors and suddenly came back to life? Isn't it a personal experience as well?
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legion
9/18/2002
16:20:34 | Zoob
Message:
That's why I don't give "super natural" claims much credance. They can't be tested, observed, measured or repeated. Until they can be they remain just "claims".
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zoobrenok
9/18/2002
16:22:25 | legion
Message:
I think you should met some people I've met who have experienced "super-natural" and results of it can be prooven. Obviously that something "super-natural" took place can't be prooven by ways you would like it to be prooven, but results of its taking place are so clear so often!
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patjackson
9/18/2002
16:28:35 | Miracles
Message:
don't happen, they're are flasified by people (not maliciously) seeing what they want (maybe need) to see. If you need to see a miracle, somehing to prove your shaky beliefes.
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legion
9/18/2002
16:39:29 | Zoob
Message:
Without researching the point you made, hear goes:
The first two are not "super natural", they are biology and chemistry. The patients bodies, on a cellular level, found a way to defeat the Aids virus or the cancer. Unusual but not super natural.
The second two, well, I just don't believe any such things happened.
As for the last one, we often hear of someone who's heart has stopped and been restarted. Is that what you mean? If it is then, the person was never dead. Death, clinical death, is recognised to have occured when there is no longer any brain activity. No one has ever been brought back from that definition of death.
P.S. I was tempted to make the obvious joke about how it would appear that the ability to post in the flame wars is not affected by brain death. But I won't :-)
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zoobrenok
9/18/2002
16:46:46 | Re: Miracles
Message:
Please do not be such a close minded.
Because miracles are all around you and I've seen one even today.
What I am trying to point out is that not everything can be explained by science, so we should not rely on science only.
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zoobrenok
9/18/2002
16:50:49 | legion
Message:
Tell me why first two are so unusual if our body "knows" how to fight a decease. Tell me why it did not happenned to that Joe Dow who died today from cancer or AIDS.
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"The second two, well, I just don't believe any such things happened."
Well, fact that they did took place is not being changed by your disbeleive in it. This is exactly what I am trying to make point - you can not rely on something sceince can always explain.
If you interested, I can tell you how to reach that person who was driving a car, but you would need a translator :-).
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Joke - you did make it and it was a GOOD one :-). Even if I had a different opinion about you before, I would've plussed you, but I couldn't, so do not rush into your profile - your Forum rating did not change :-)
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patjackson
9/18/2002
16:55:55 | You see what you want to see
Message:
And you want to see miracles because they prove the exsistence of your unlikely almighty.
Science hasn't explained everything yet.
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zoobrenok
9/18/2002
17:07:31 | Re: You see what you want to see
Message:
So, when blind person can all of the sudden see and science can not explain why there were no "miracle" involved?
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patjackson
9/18/2002
17:10:28 | There
Message:
almost certainly was no incident.
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legion
9/18/2002
17:13:35 | Zoob.
Message:
<<Tell me why first two are so unusual if our body "knows" how to fight a decease. Tell me why it did not happenned to that Joe Dow who died today from cancer or AIDS.>>
I didn't mean that our bodies "know" how to fight a disease like aids or cancer. But it is likely that they DO try. There may be a zillion combinations of things the body can try before coming up with the solution. Very occasionally they beat the odds and find a solution before the patient succumbs to the disease. So we, in our ignorance, see a miracle.
<<Well, fact that they did took place is not being changed by your disbeleive in it. >>
I don't see how we can come to an agreement on this. You believe, I don't. We are not going to change each others minds, so I won't push on this one.
About the "brain dead posters" joke. I must admit I had a few names in mind when I thought of that joke, but be assured, you were NOT one of them. :-)
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zoobrenok
9/18/2002
17:21:38 | legion
Message:
"zillion combinations"
Here is why it is so important to me: I do realize that there are chances for our bodies to fight back, but how can you explain that this happens to that particular person when he/she has two weeks to live and doctors send him/her home to die?
How can you explain that your chances are actually higher then "one to zillion" under certain conditions?
That is what I am talking about - truth can not be found through science only. :-).
"You believe, I don't"
Actually the only reason I beleive it is because I've seen it and "touched" it and through repetition I was able to develop a habbit of knowing when it is for real and when it is not.
I won't push you if you... Ops.. Stopping right here.. You know what I want to say... See you at the party...
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legion
9/18/2002
17:33:08 | Zoob
Message:
A zillion was just a number. It was intended to convey the meaning of a very large number. Who knows what the number really is.
Chance is a funny thing. Just because there may be a zillion possibilities, it doesn't mean that the correct possibility can't occur on the 5000000th attempt. Or the 200th. Or even the first. It CAN happen.
Party? What party? I've not been invited to any party!
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zoobrenok
9/18/2002
17:42:04 | legion
Message:
if i know it will take place, it no longer "a chance" and this is type of things I am referring to.
Party is in Social Chat in victord house.
We even have police, CIA and FBI joining us for party, but we are missing tomato juice...
So get some and join us :-)
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legion
9/18/2002
17:45:09 | Zoob.
Message:
Maybe later. Time for bed now.
I was thinking of starting a thread about the super natural. It might be interesting to see if anyone else has had any experiance of it?
What do you think?
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zoobrenok
9/18/2002
17:48:41 | legion
Message:
Just make sure to say that anything religion related should not be posted there and you will never get your answer :-).
I think everyone could've experienced "super-natural" and while we might or might not agree about definitions and explanations of why certain things took place, we still can share our experiences.
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outinspace69
9/18/2002
20:30:32 | you cant explain evrything
Message:
we are not really sure that our laws go forth inthe universeit is nlyt an asumption that people of science make uintil we get there we can never know its true. Lets just face it, we know nothing even though we like to think we do, humans are arogant egocentrics and cant admit thaty wse know nothing of the rest of the universe
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