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nobody

10/17/2002
04:38:23		 Subject: Church accused of fraud

Message:
The undersigned, Luigi Cascioli, resident of Roccalvecce (Viterbo), Via delle Province no. 45/B,

EXPOUNDS THE FOLLOWING

The undersigned, after lengthy and in depth studies consisting of (and not only) a text exegesis of the Old Testament and the New Testament, has come to the conclusion that many of the facts presented as being true and historical in the so called "Holy Scriptures" are in reality false, first of all the historicity of the figure of Jesus Christ, for the most part based on the figure of John of Gamala, son of Judas, direct descendant of the line of Asmoneans.
The grounds leading the undersigned to this conclusion are expressed in detail in the book, which is enclosed with the official complaint, of which it is an integral and substantial part.
This complaint does not wish to contest the freedom of Christians to profess their faith, sanctioned by art. 19 of the Italian Constitution, but wishes to denounce the abuse the Catholic Church commits by availing itself of its prestige, to inculcate, as being real and historical, facts that are really just inventions.

A clear example of such abuse was made by Don Enrico Righi (priest of Bagnoregio) when he supported, in the newspaper of the parish of St Bonaventure in Bagnoregio N March-April 245, 2002, the historical identity of Jesus by wrongfully affirming that this one existed like man born of two characters, them also completely imaginary, named Marie and Joseph, and that he was born in Bethlehem and grew in Nazareth.
The figure of Jesus was completely built on that of Jean of Gamala, son of Judas of Galilee, and that results in an irrefutable way by a so great quantity of evidences that one cannot have any doubt any more about the falsifications carried out by the writers of the Gospels. It would be enough to take into account only that concerning the transformation of the name "Nazir", with which one called Jean of Gamala, in that of Nazarean, given to Jesus as an inhabitant of Nazareth, to understand in an absolute manner the substitution of person.

From a penal point of view these historical falsifications can integrate cases in point of two offences: the abuse of popular credulity and impersonation (in the case of Jesus Christ).
According to art. 661 Italian Penal Code, there is an abuse of popular credulity when someone, by means of fraud, deceives a great number of people. In this particular case, Don Enrico Righi, committing historical facts (therefore, presenting invented facts as being true and actually occurred), deceives all the people that come into contact with the teaching of the Catholic religion by inducing them to believe that religion, not on the basis of purely theological reasoning (totally legitimate and admissible) but on the basis of a deceptive representation of the facts.
The offence is of a transgressive nature for which the psychological element of the offence suffices, which certainly may be found in all ministers of the Catholic religion, in view of the fact that it is not credible that educated people, who by vocation and profession continually study the Bible and the Gospels, have not been aware of the numerous and repeated falsehoods (even gross) contained in those writings.
In regard to the offence of impersonation, this occurs when a party benefits by misleading others by attributing to itself or to others a false name.

In the case in question, the book (which I refer to for more detailed explanations) demonstrates that Jesus Christ never existed, and that under that name there is John of Gamala. Therefore, the ministers of the Catholic Church, like the priest Don Enrico Righi, who proselytize (thereby gaining benefit from the number of believers) on the basis of this falsehood mislead those who receive their message and therefore, commit the offence called for and punished by art. 494 of the Italian Penal Code.

Among other things, to integrate the offence in question, "it is not necessary that the goal of the offender is in itself illegitimate or aimed at gaining profit since it can very well be legitimate and not aimed at gaining profit." (Supreme court of appeal (Cassation). Section V. 9.2.1973 no. 164; in conformity with Cassation Section V 17.2 1967 no. 340).
The subjective element requested is the specific malice, which exists in all these subjects, that are aware of such falsehoods but have no scruples about continuing to divulge them.
The responsibility of the Pope can only be moral considering his immunity according to art. 3 I comma of the Italian Penal Code, whereas all the other ministers of the Catholic religion may be faced with the responsibility of a penal nature
The continual description and divulging of false facts that are passed off as true also harms the moral tranquillity and serenity of the petitioner with the consequential emotional distress for which he will request damages in the proper places, by means of timely filing a civil action in criminal proceedings, that is reserved as of now.
The undersigned, at disposal of the Judiciary Authorities for further explanations, reserves the right to integrate what has been denounced and asks expressly to be heard on the above facts.
Being stated and considered, the undersigned Luigi Cascioli formally presents

DENUNCIATION- LAWSUIT

for the offences p. and p. of art. 494 and 661 C.P., as for any other crime that V.S. will want to inform in the behaviour describe above.

Towards Enrico Righi, priest of Bagnoregio (VT), resident in Matteotti street, n° 45, in possible contest with the others ministers of the catholic Church, for the offence called for in art. 661 of the Italian Penal Code, as well as for any other offence that Your Honour wishes to advise in the behaviour above described.

nobody

philaretus

10/17/2002
05:59:23		 I daresay....

Message:
.....it's just a publicity stunt that will never actually come before a court. But I would certainly like to hear these matters argued in a judicial setting. The court would be unlikely to accept the Bible as evidence of the truth of the Bible, as fundamentalists would seek to persuade us.

parrvert

10/17/2002
06:28:01		 ???

Message:
In court do you swear on the bible to tell the truth, or have I been mislead by TV?

blindio

10/17/2002
06:41:24		 In a British court

Message:
you may swear on any of a number of religious texts that are kept available, or you may choose to affirm if you prefer.

philaretus

10/17/2002
07:04:30		 But this involves...

Message:
.....the Italian courts. Perhaps someone in the know might set me straight on this, but I would guess that as Italy is a secular state, witnesses don't swear on holy texts.

Brunetti, where are you?

nobody

10/18/2002
11:02:16		 edited holy text

Message:
This document was found by Prof. Morton Smith in 1958 at the Mar Saba monastery, southeast of Jerusalem. In the document, authoritatively attributed to Clement of Alexandria, a "Secret Gospel of Mark" is mentioned. Clement presents fragments from the text of this secret gospel which he claims is in the custody of the Church in Alexandria, but which is kept secret. Perhaps the most important issue confirmed by this letter is the fact that in Clement's time "hierophantic teachings of the Lord" and Gospel texts now lost were still transmitted within the church to a select group of Christians. Fragments attributed to the Secret Gospel of Mark are shown below.


A Letter Attributed to Clement of Alexandria
To Theodore.

You did well in silencing the unspeakable teachings of the Carpocrations. For these are "wandering stars" referred to in the prophecy, who wander from the narrow road of the commandments into a boundless abyss of the carnal and bodily sins. For, priding themselves in knowledge, as they say, "of the deep things of Satan, they do not know that they are casting themselves away into "the netherworld of the darkness" of falseness, and boasting that they are free, they have become slaves of servile desires. Such men are to be opposed in all ways and alltogether. For, even if they should say something true, one who loves the truth should not, even so, agree with them. For not all true things are the truth, nor should that truth which merely seems true according to human opinions be prefered to the true truth, that according to the faith.

Now of the things they keep saying about the divinely inspired Gospel according to Mark, some are altogether falsifications, and others, even if they do contain some true elements, nevertheless are not reported truely. For the true things being mixed with inventions, are falsified , so that, as the saying goes, even the salt loses its savor.

As for Mark, then, during Peter`s stay in Rome he wrote an account of the Lord`s doings, not, however, declaring all of them, nor yet hinting at the secret ones, but selecting what he thought most useful for increasing the faith of those who were being instructed. But when Peter died a martyr, Mark came over to Alexandria, bringing both his own notes and those of Peter, from which he transferred to his former books the things suitable to whatever makes for progress toward knowledge. Thus he composed a more spiritual Gospel for the use of those who were being perfected. Nevertheless, he yet did not divulge the things not to be uttered, nor did he write down the hierophantic teaching of the Lord, but to the stories already written he added yet others and, moreover, brought in certain sayings of which he knew the interpretation would, as a mystagogue , lead the hearers into the innermost sanctuary of truth hidden by seven veils. Thus, in sum, he prepared matters, neither grudgingly nor incautionously, in my opinion, and, dying, he left his composition to the church in 1, verso Alexandria, where it even yet is most carefully guarded, being read only to those who are being initated into the great mysteries.

But since the foul demons are always devising destruction for the race of men, Carpocrates, instructed by them and using deceitful arts, so enslaved a certain presbyter of the church in Alexandria that he got from him a copy of the secret Gospel, which he both interpreted according to his blasphemous and carnal doctrine and, moreover, polluted, mixing with the spotless and holy words utterly shameless lies. From this mixture is withdrawn off the teaching of the Carpocratians.

To them, therefore, as I said above, one must never give way ; nor, when they put forward their falsifications, should one concede that the secret Gospel is by Mark, but should even deny it on oath. For, "For not all true things are to be said to all men". For this reason the Wisdom of God, through Solomon, advises, "Answer the fool with his folly," , teaching that the light of the truth should be hidden from those who are mentally blind. Again it says, "From him who has not shall be taken away" and "Let the fool walk in darkness". But we are "children of Light" having been illuminated by "the dayspring" of the spirit of the Lord "from on high", and "Where the Spirit of the Lord is" , it says, "there is liberty", for "All things are pure to the pure".

To you, therefore, I shall not hesitate to answer the questions you have asked, refuting the falsifications by the very words of the Gospel. For example, after "And they were in the road going up to Jerusalem" and what follows, until "After three days he shall arise", the secret Gospel brings the following material word for word:

"And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, "son of David, have mercy on me". But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered , went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus thaught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan."

And these words follow the text, "And James and John come to him" and all that section. But "naked man with naked man" and the other things about which you wrote, are not found.

And after the words,"And he comes into Jericho," the secret Gospel adds only, "And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not receive them." But many other things about which you wrote both seem to be and are falsifications.

nobody

nobody

10/18/2002
12:00:32		 Marks tells of Jesus Being Bisexual

Message:
Scholars have long wondered at a curious passage in the canonical Gospel of Mark (undisputedly the oldest of the canonical gospels) which seems to hint that a detail or two might have been left out: Then they came to Jericho. As he was leaving Jericho with his disciples (Mark 10:46). But what happened in Jericho on Jesus' whistle-stop tour of the provinces?

Did Jesus simply pass through and then leave without doing or saying anything to anyone? If the visit was so irrelevant to Jesus' mission, why is it even mentioned?

The gap suggests a mission portion of Marks Gospel. The Letter supplied below--of Clements, who had access to the complete version of Marks gospel, places the events in Jericho.

Both what is missing and why were supplied by Morton Smith, the Columbia University professor scholar whose 1958 research expedition culminated in the discovery of a copy of a letter in the 1646 edition of letters of Ignatius of Antioch (a 2nd century church writer) at the monastery of Mar Saba, twelve miles south of Jerusalem.

This letter contains quotes from what Saint Clemens Bishop of Alexandria refers to as The Secret Gospel of Mark. (Based on this letter we can conclude that The Secret Gospel of Mark was the older and more complete, and the version we have is an edited version with the troubling messages left out by the Church fathers.) The portions supplied by Clements in this letter found by Professor Morton Smith fill in the gap at Mark 10:46.

Bishop Clemens of Alexandria wrote to a disciple named Theodore who had asked for advice regarding the Caprocratians, (a Gnostic Christian sect) use of the "Secret Gospel of Mark." Clement not only confirmed the existence and authority of "Secret Mark" in his reply, but actually denounced Carpocrates for using black magic to steal a copy "Secret Mark" from the church library!

So scandalous was the Carpocratian "The Secret Gospel of Mark" that Clement advised Theodore never to admit that Mark even wrote it: "You did well in silencing the unspeakable teachings of the Carpocratians. For... priding themselves in knowledge, as they say, "of the deep things of Satan," they do not know that they are casting themselves away into "the nether world of darkness"... For even if they should say something
true, one who loves the truth should not, even so, agree with them.... Now of the things they keep saying about the divinely inspired Gospel of Mark... even if they do contain some true elements, [these] are not reported truly...."

As for Mark then, during Peter's stay in Rome [Mark] wrote an account of the Lord's doings, not, however, declaring all of them, nor yet hinting at the secret ones, but selecting what he thought most useful for increasing the faith of those who were instructed. But when Peter died a martyr, Mark came over to Alexandria, bringing both his own notes and those of Peter, from which he transferred to his former book the things suitable
to whatever makes for progress towards knowledge. Thus he composed a more spiritual gospel for the use of those who were being perfected. Nevertheless, he yet did not divulge the things not to be uttered, nor did he write down the hierophantic teaching of the Lord [and] he left his composition in the church in... Alexandria, where it is... most carefully guarded, being read only by those who are being initiated into the great mysteries."

But since the foul demons are always devising destruction for the race of men, Carpocrates... using deceitful arts, so enslaved a certain presbyter in the church that he got from a copy of the secret gospel, which he interpreted according to his blasphemous and carnal doctrine..."


To them, therefore, as I said above, one must never give way... [or] even concede that the secret gospel is by Mark... but deny it on oath. For, 'Not all true things are to be said to all men..."

This letter is strong evidence that the Secret Gospel of Mark was in fact the complete version of Mark, and what we have is the edited version by the Church fathers. Barnstone at 340 lists as being visible signs of this editing process Mark 4:ll; 9:25-27; 10:21, 32,38-39; 12:32-34; 14:51-52. What, then, were these "true things" that the Church fathers hoped to hide from the untutored eyes of the average Christian? What was the unspeakable?

St. Clement quotes from this complete, "Secret Gospel of Mark" at length towards the end of his letter. Clement in the last third of his letter to Theodore wrote: "To you, therefore I shall not hesitate to answer the questions you have asked refuting the falsifications by the very words of the [Secret] Gospel (Barnstone 342). "And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, Son of David, have mercy on me. But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her unto the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near, Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth came to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan."

After these words follows the text, And James and John come to him, and all that section. But naked man with naked man, and the other things about which you wrote, are not found."And after the words, And he comes into Jericho, the secret Gospel adds only, And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved, and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not receive them. But many other things about which you wrote both seem to be and are falsifications. Now the true explanation and that which accords with the true philosophy."

[1] This passage quoted by Clemens from the Gospel, could be interpreted as an account of a baptism preformed by Jesus on this young lad and some dobut for 3 facts. One that Clements and the Church fathers not only suppressed the passage but found it scandalous. Second, the plain meaning of the words naked man with naked man and whom Jesus loved support the conclusion that Sexual union with a man as part of the sacrament was practiced. Third, that it was a practice of some Christian sects for to have (like in Tantra Yoga) to engage in sexual intercourse as part of a union with God. Such was said of some Christian communities. There are passages in the Pauline Epistles which admonishing certain unnamed sexual practices and there is a letter from a Roman physician describing in detail this practice. Morton Smith, the discoverer of the letter writes:

Freedom from the [Mosaic] law may have resulted in completion of the spiritual union by physical union.

This certainly occurred in many forms of Gnostic Christianity;

how early it began there is no telling (Morton Smith, The Secret Gospel, p. 94, The Secret Gospel: The Discovery and Interpretation of the Secret Gospel according to Mark. New York: Harper & Row, 1973). From the tone of the letter of Clement, the fact that are present Gospel of Mark is incomplete in a way that indicates deliberate suppression of passages, and from the quoted passages of in the letter, and from the practices of early Christian communities it is quite reasonable to conclude that the Secret Gospel of Mark described the sexual union of Jesus with a young disciple.

This portrayal of the Messiah Jesus as partaking in sexual union fits well with the view of Jesus as a prophet, like Mohammed, Elijah, and others. Much has been written on the meaning of the Messiah (anointed leader) and the meaning of the Son of God needs to be set in its proper context. A number of heroes were the son of god, including Hercales, Helen, and it was widely believed that Philip of Macedonia was not the real son of Alexander. Mark who was first, and whose Gospel was incorporated with aggrandizements embellishment by Matthew and Luke, and as meaning a prophet unto whom the spirit of god has enter Jesus.

[2] This would not be necessary if Jesus was already divine. Nor would God need to inform his son

[3] that he is his son, unless son of God meant something like chosen one. Son of God, most scholars agree, is an ambiguous title at best, so too, is lord from the Aramaic mare, which could be interpreted in a spectrum of ways from the mundane sir to the divine lord.

[4] As a mortal, having intercourse with women would be fitting, and to be celibate would to most be very abnormal. Would it be very abnormal for Jesus to take a young man and in the religious initiation have sex with him? The Greeks and Romans both approved such if done with the spirit of a mentor and one also loved women. Three centuries of domination had its effects. Mark had written in his fiction on the life of Jesus

[5] things that were deemed proper in the Hellenized world? Could not Mark, who was most certainly not Mark of the disciples, had Jesus do that which Mark free done? Modern research often
proposes as the author an unknown Hellenistic Jewish Christian, possibly in Syria and perhaps shortly after the year 70.

[6] Clement of Alexandria in his letter acknowledges a complete and suppressed original edition of Marks Gospel, a copy in the Churchs library in Alexandria. Thus the most consistent
explanation of the missing passages including the one concerning Jericho is that the Church Counsel was not as Hellenized as Mark, and that they upheld the Hebraic injunction against Greek love.



------------------------------------

[1] The Secret Gospel of Mark, The Other Bible, Willis Barnstone, Editor, Harper & Row, San Francisco, 1984, pp. 339-342. This volume is still in print. Each Work has a short introductory commentary.

[2] Mark finds nothing remarkable about he life of Jesus (unlike the embellishments of Luke and Matthew). Jesus doesnt become the revealer of the secrets of heaven until he is called by god. On coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon him. Mark 1:10.

[3] "And a voice came from the heavens, You are my beloved Son: with you I am well pleased." Mark 1:11.

[4] Who Do Men Say That I Am? Kerry Temple, Notre Dame Magazine, Summer 1990, p. 12. This article is by the magazines managing editor, and is published at the Catholic Notre Dame University. Kerry in this article on the historical and textual setting of the Bible has undermined the Bibles authority.

[5] Biblical scholars who are without the prejudice of faith have concluded that the Gospels are not historical. The most compelling reason is the Epistles, for they are without history or quotes of Jesus. Being early than the Gospels is strong evidence that what was missing was corrected first by Mark.

[6] The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press, 1979, p. 1117.

nobody

zoobrenok

10/18/2002
12:54:50		 nobody

Message:
i am not sure what you are trying to achieve here in this thread.

but i do know this -- the other day i watched a documentary on History Channel here in US.

they brought up a very interesting point there when they were talking about gates built by Solomon.
---------------------
Basically, archeologists were able to locate 3 city gates in Israel that have exactly the same design.

Those of them who are pro-Bible, say that gates were built in 10 century B.C. (and they have a valid scientific proof that gates were built at that point of time in history), which is about the time when Solomon whas a king in Israel.

Those of them who are sceptics, say that Solomon did not build those gates.
------------
Do you see a difference in two ways of looking into the problem?
------------
I'd like to finish this post with saying of one of the pro-Bible archeologists (in my own words of course - it has been several weeks since I watched that program):
"Archeology will never answer your faith questions. It can help you to understand sertain things, but you should never make you faith choice based on archeology. Because in next 40 years someone else will come and say that there were no David or that there was a David and will come up with more findings to support his/her ideas. But I will not be around at that time, so it won't matter to me." (A person I quoted was in his late 50's, early 60's)


So, maybe instead of looking for additional "secret" Bible texts that contradict with what is written in todays Bible, we should go back to the original, to New Testament that has been freely available to people for past 2000 years and to Old Testament that has been around for even longer time?

parrvert

10/18/2002
13:11:39		 I agree with zoobrenok

Message:
Most people are stubborn, you will not persuade a Christian that the bible is wrong just as you won't persuade an athiest to believe in God. Science COULD be useful to prove whether facts from the bible are true or false but unfortunately scientists (and anyone else capable of forming an opinion) are biased.

philaretus

10/18/2002
13:51:45		 zoobrenok

Message:
You're completely ignoring one of the points brought out in nobody's post, that what we have in today's Bible are NOT the "original" Gospels, but edited versions of the original Gospels. When the Fathers of the Church made their definitive choice in the 4th Century A.D. of which books should be included in the canon of the New Testament, they rejected those originals, as they contained material that was by then regarded as heterodox. It's a fact that the books in today's New Testament were included because they contained correct doctrine; the doctrine did not owe its correctness to those books.

wolfstrike

10/18/2002
14:00:20

Message:
first you guys say "the bible teaches evil",
then you say "the bible has been changed and is not original".

dont you think that if the bible was changed,they would have taken out the parts you dont agree with?

wolfstrike

10/18/2002
14:05:26

Message:
i will not be persuded that the bible is wrong because i have found more wisdom in the bible than you will ever be able to post if you lived to 10,000 years old.

nobody

10/18/2002
14:07:46		 zoobrenok/parrvert

Message:
The bible is not worth the paper it is written on if it does not tell the truth.

So the fact that the church may be taken to court for making up stories/fabricating the truth does not bother you?

Who was in control of writing and editing the book that you beleive in?

James Whale did a live Tv and Radio (christians phoned in with thier replies) poll on the subject. The question he asked was:

"if Jesus was Gay would you still follow him"

The answer to the poll was 51% would still follow Jesus and 49% would not.

The point of this thread is to point out information to people who proberly didnt know it before. There is nothing on this thread that cannot be checked up on. In other words its not something I have made up. I came across it by accident and couldn't beleive what I was reading. So I thought if I havn't heard about it there is a possibility that most here havn't.

nobody

philaretus

10/18/2002
14:16:07		 The New Testament

Message:
In debates with fundamentalists, it soon becomes clear that many (if not most) of them believe that soon after the Crucifixion a book called 'The New Testament' was available, and that Christians went about preaching it. In fact, the New Testament wasn't compiled for another 300 years. And it's doubtful that in the 1st Century A.D. even the four canonical Gospels were known. Paul, in his Epistles, never quotes from any of them.

zoobrenok

10/18/2002
14:24:32		 nobody --> poll

Message:
NO
------
BUT! How can Jesus be homosexual if Bible (both OT and NT) claims that He must be ***sinless*** and OT says that homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of the God?

In other words, question in the poll is not correct because it removes entire idea of Jesus being a perfect sacrifice for our sins, therefore making Him useless. And I have better things to do then to follow a useless god (like Zeus for example).

zoobrenok

10/18/2002
14:29:17		 philaretus

Message:
I beleive my post perfectly illustrates the situation.
Here is why (I have to quote myself again, but please be patient with me here and try to understand what am I trying to say):
"Archeology will never answer your faith questions. It can help you to understand sertain things, but you should never make you faith choice based on archeology. Because in next 40 years someone else will come and say that there were no David or that there was a David and will come up with more findings to support his/her ideas. But I will not be around at that time, so it won't matter to me."

The reason we have this discussion is because someone found something during his/her research and it goes just fine with quote above.
------------------------
Yes, Paul did not reffer to 4 Gospels. So what? Moses did not reffer to Psalms written by David, what difference does it make?

zoobrenok

10/18/2002
14:31:09		 I've updated my profile

Message:
Check it out :-)

zoobrenok

wolfstrike

10/18/2002
14:32:23

Message:
we all ready knew that the courts ,the law,the government(s) will some day turn against us (christians)

we are watching these things happen before our eyes today.
we see whats happening,and this is a wake up call to all christians that this isn't a game.

the media is preaching the star trek religion that all of us are going to be living with no problems,floating around the stars,living under the non-corruptable world of the star federation.

the media is preaching that there is some guy who is talking to dead people on a regular bassis,
he's telling us that when we die we go to a politically correct world where no one has to worry of the consequences of how they lived thier life.

if you dont believe the christian prophesies,just look at the condition of the planet,allot of the damage from pollution is irreversible.stop listening to the government, the media and scientists,they dont have answers for anything.




it doesnt matter what history says about the bible,you will believe any story that speaks against it,because thats what you WANT to believe.




zoobrenok

10/18/2002
14:36:55		 Chernobil

Message:
Radiated water tastes as it is said in Revelations about 1/3 of the water becoming bad to drink (an exact passage is out of my head right now).

About 1/3 of the Uklraine territory poluted after that catastrophe...
---------------------------------
I am not saying that this is what Revelations talk about, but this is what Ukrainian President reffered to during a Memorial Service 10 years after that dark day in history...
---------------------------------
This is to support wolfstrike comment about things taking place around us and to ask you one more time to sit and think what role are you playing in this world.

zoobrenok

10/18/2002
14:47:19		 woww.....

Message:
Uklraine = Ukraine :-).
-----------

I am going to put a real picture of me sometime soon for ***just one*** day in my profile. Anyone interested?

nobody

10/18/2002
15:07:23		 wolfstrike

Message:
<< it doesnt matter what history says about the bible,you will believe any story that speaks against it,because thats what you WANT to believe. >>

Are you saying that the post that I have posted on this thread do not hold any element of truth?

I have a very good imagination, but I do not beleive everything I am told, read or learn by any other means. I have learnt a lot about the bible since participating in these threads some good some bad some true some untrue.

I could mention the good things I have learned but I do not see the point as you know them already and could describe them a lot better than I. However your not going to know the bad points either true or not true until someone points them out to you.

I have learnt a lot participating here, what have you learnt?

nobody

wolfstrike

10/18/2002
16:26:46

Message:
i have learned that non-believers show a pattern,first they say the whole thing was made up,then they say that jesus was real but not the son of god.
which ever one works better for them at the time.

these stories calling jesus a fake come and go all the time.
there were people calling jesus a fake when he walked the earth.
im sure if you look hard enough you can find some of those stories too.

"i dont believe everything im told"
thats an excellent trait,i suggest you keep thinking that way.

there are allot of people who have agendas in this world,and when some one comes out with shocking information you have to ask,who is this person?,and does this person have a motive for saying this?

most people stop asking questions after they hear "that guy is a scientist"

and no ,i can not describe the good things of the bible better than you.

zylstraj

10/18/2002
16:28:51		 THE BIBLE

Message:

"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

-Revelation 22:18 & 19 (NKJ)

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

-Matthew 5:18 (NKJ)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

-John 1:1 (NKJ)


These are but a few examples of what scripture tells us about the veracity and completeness of the Bible, and offer some idea of the consequences that may be expected by those who attempt to alter it in any fashion.

His servant,

-JZ



pheck

10/18/2002
16:34:09		 well i say

Message:
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah,

i could go on, but im sure you've all heard enough

legion

10/18/2002
16:41:13		 Zyl

Message:
The arguments that you quote for the "veracity and completeness of the Bible" are all self-referential.

You’re saying, in effect, that the bible is true because it says so in the bible!

I think you need to offer sounder "proof" than that if you really want to strengthen your position.


qiwi

10/18/2002
16:43:43		 Readings from the Blahble.....

Message:
"In the beginning was the blah blah, and the blah blah was with Bl-h, and the blah blah was Bl-h."
Blah 1:1

zoobrenok

10/18/2002
17:08:32		 Re: Zyl

Message:
I think when we are talking about matters of faith, one should accept some pre-conditions (or aksioms) as starting point and then go from there.

Because if there is no starting point, then how can do anything?

Yes, we do take Bible as that "starting point" and yes, we use it as a magic glass and we look on the world using it.

As far as "proof" goes, let me point you back to that quote I posted earlier today -- "...you should never make you faith choice based on..."

parrvert

10/19/2002
02:04:57		 An interesting book

Message:
I recently saw a book that tried to answer many of the questions people have about the bible. It too often used the bible as proof. There were other interesting things in the book, athiesm is responsible for all the world's evils, because Hitler was an athiest, if he had been Christian there would have been no problems. However on the same page it talks about Christians in Northern Ireland (it says these are just bad christians.) Another point, it says athiests are responsible for homosexuality, so how come priests are fiddling with little boys? If priests aren't good christians then who is?

philaretus

10/19/2002
04:51:05		 zoobrenok

Message:
But you'd led us all to believe that you hold the Bible to be TRUE, not just an axiom of a system that may or may not have anything to do with reality.

hehasrisen

10/19/2002
05:16:57		 Hitler was not an atheist

Message:
he was an occultist and they rarely are atheist.


philaretus

10/19/2002
07:58:24		 The official religion.....

Message:
.....of the National Socialist Party was 'Believing in God', in other words, roughly, 'Deist'. They rejected Christianity as fundamentally Jewish --- which indeed it is, of course --- though it wasn't always politic for them to say so. Paganism and Occultism were in vogue only amongst cranks, like Himmler.

zoobrenok

10/19/2002
10:08:28		 philaretus

Message:
And yes, that is what I do. However, for the sake of our conversation, I do suggest that Bible is accepted as a starting point by those who do not beleive in it.

Because how can one enjoy best steak in the world if he/she is a vegeterian?

Same here -- if you do not want to accept Bible and wish to look for proofs outside, you will never find one - just like that archeologist said.
--------
Let me finish with this:
You may reject every word in the Bible, youi may reject all the explanations that are given to you saying they are based on Bible itself etc etc etc as you've been doing here.
As for me, this coming Sunday I will go to church both for the morning and evening services. And there I will see pastor of my church who has been diagnosed with cancer on February 6 of this year and to whom doctors said that they "will try to save his life" and who was healed by God. Partially I don't care what you guys think on the subject - because every time I come to church, I see someone who had cancer and was supposed to die, but 6 months later he is in a perfect health thanks to my Jesus. If you don't want to walk with Jesus, then it is your and only your decision. And here two scriptures I have for you to conclude:
Joshua 1:8
Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.
Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD .

fooey

10/19/2002
12:11:41		 the bible

Message:
how can the bible be true ?

It was a collation of many different books, by many different people, over a long period of time. Can anyone truly say that everything written there is well founded, and based on fact ? No, it's a collection of metaphors, some good, some bad, and I'm talking about the new and old testicles.

Yes, it's a better basis to live by than hitler's mottos, but when arrogant control freaks like bin laden and w. bush use it to manipulate people to give them money and power, it can only be a bad thing.

As for Jesus being a batty-boy, well he did have long hair and wear sandals... say no more !



zoobrenok

10/19/2002
15:52:13		 fooey

Message:
how can the bible be anything else but true?

Have you ever asked yourself why is that Bible written by so many different people across so long time period, does not have any contradictions in itself? Have you ever asked yourself how could people thousands years ago make such a perfect book that would contain answers to all questions you and I might have today?

"As for Jesus", oh, yeah, you forgot to mention this:
Isaiah 53:1-12.... Not only He had long hair, He also had something else... Read that chapter to understand more on what exactly He had

philaretus

10/19/2002
15:54:55		 How wonderful it would be....

Message:
.....if such a book existed..... :/

legion

10/19/2002
16:23:35		 Oh it exists allright.

Message:
But only in the closed minds of those cursed with the blindness of faith.

nobody

10/20/2002
04:19:36		 zoobrenok

Message:
<< pastor of my church who has been diagnosed with cancer on February 6 of this year and to whom doctors said that they "will try to save his life" and who was healed by God. Partially I don't care what you guys think on the subject - because every time I come to church, I see someone who had cancer and was supposed to die, but 6 months later he is in a perfect health thanks to my Jesus. >>

zoobrenok please tell me you dont beleive this. Lets suppose its true. I wouldnt want to be that person. Every day all over the world children die of natural disease many dont even get the opportunity to be born. We are talking christian children as well as others. Children whose parents pray for them but they still die. Yet your pastor gets healed. If its true he has a lot of guilt to live with.

What has he done to deserve such an intervention from God?

Perhaps with gods help his body generated some form of antibody that killed the virus. If that is so then shouldnt he allow himself to be tested. He may be able to help millions of others.

Which ever way tou look at it the words greed or selfishness comes to mind. Is this a good example of christiananity I think not.

nobody

nobody

10/20/2002
04:34:02		 cancer

Message:
Andrew Wail (not sure of the spelling my wife has lent out the book lol) was told that he was going to die of cancer. There was nothing doctors could do to save him. He was given three months to live. He completely changed his diet. Only eating food that was good for him. Apparantly he ate a lot of broccoli.

Will power and a healthy diet saved this man. NOT god.

nobody

legion

10/20/2002
04:42:41		 Zoob

Message:
I think what's important here is not that, according to you, God intervened and saved your pastor, but that God is clearly NOT moved to help the millions of others who are suffering daily?

legion

10/20/2002
04:43:07		 Zoob

Message:
I think what's important here is not that, according to you, God intervened and saved your pastor, but that God is clearly NOT moved to help the millions of others who are suffering daily.

nobody

10/20/2002
06:56:24		 alleged untruths

Message:
It is very telling that the earliest Christian documents, the Epistles attributed to "Paul," never discuss a historical background of Jesus but deal exclusively with a spiritual being who was known to all gnostic sects for hundreds to thousands of years. The few "historical" references to an actual life of Jesus cited in the Epistles are demonstrably interpolations and forgeries, as are, according to Wheless, the Epistles themselves, as they were not written by "Paul." Aside from the brief reference to Pontius Pilate at 1 Timothy 6:13, an epistle dated ben Yehoshua to 144 CE and thus not written by Paul, the Pauline literature (as pointed out by Edouard Dujardin) "does not refer to Pilate, or the Romans, or Caiaphas, or the Sanhedrin, or Herod, or Judas, or the holy women, or any person in the gospel account of the Passion, and that it also never makes any allusion to them; lastly, that it mentions absolutely none of the events of the Passion, either directly or by way of allusion." Dujardin additionally relates that other early "Christian" writings such as Revelation do not mention any historical details or drama. Mangasarian notes that Paul also never quotes from Jesus's purported sermons and speeches, parables and prayers, nor does he mention Jesus's supernatural birth or any of his alleged wonders and miracles, all which one would presume would be very important to his followers, had such exploits and sayings been known prior to "Paul."

Turning to the gospels themselves, which were composed between 170-180 C.E.22a, their pretended authors, the apostles, give sparse histories and genealogies of Jesus that contradict each other and themselves in numerous places. The birthdate of Jesus is depicted as having taken place at different times. His birth and childhood are not mentioned in "Mark," and although he is claimed in "Matthew" and "Luke" to have been "born of a virgin," his lineage is traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill prophecy."23 He is said in the first three (Synoptic) gospels to have taught for one year before he died, while in "John" the number is three years. "Matthew" relates that Jesus delivered "The Sermon on the Mount" before "the multitudes," while "Luke" says it was a private talk given only to the disciples. The accounts of his Passion and Resurrection differ utterly from each other, and no one states how old he was when he died. Wheless says, "The so-called 'canonical' books of the New Testament, as of the Old, are a mess of contradictions and confusions of text, to the present estimate of 150,000 and more 'variant readings,' as is well known and admitted." In addition, of the dozens of gospels, ones that were once considered canonical or genuine were later rejected as "apocryphal" or spurious, and vice versa. So much for the "infallible Word of God" and "infallible" Church! The confusion exists because the Christian plagiarists over the centuries were attempting to amalgamate and fuse practically every myth, fairytale, legend, doctrine or bit of wisdom they could pilfer from the innumerable different mystery religions and philosophies that existed at the time. In doing so, they forged, interpolated, mutilated, changed, and rewrote these texts for centuries.

nobody

zoobrenok

10/20/2002
08:09:21		 Folks, you have short memory!

Message:
For past 12 months we've been telling you that Salvation through Jesus is FREE and that there is NOTHING ANYONE can do to deserve it, because we are saved not through works, but by grace through faith.

This is to answer on allegation like this:
"What has he done to deserve such an intervention from God? "
NOTHING. And nobody can do anything to deserve something from God. Because Jesus paied for our sins not because we were good, but because God loved us with unconditional love so much, that He gave away the only important thing in His eyes -- His Son.
------------
"millions of others"

What would YOU do if YOU are senetenced to slow death by doctors? Will YOU overcome death?
------------
"millions of others"

legion, there will be hundreds of millions in hell. Do you want to be one of them? That is the ultimate question. Not what God can do for your neighboor, but what can do for YOU, for ME.
I don't care what God can do for my neighboor (upto cetain degree of course). I want to see daily God's work in MY life! Yes, you can accuse Christianity of "selfishness" because Paul said that save entire world but to loose his soul is not a good trade(!). Oh, but don't forget that even that same "selfish" Paul was killed for spreading the Gospel trying to help people....
===============
Now, let me put it this way -- I've learned this at my work: do not blame your failures on others even if it is so because YOU have power to change things around.

philaretus

10/20/2002
10:04:29		 zoobrenok

Message:
Do you hold that faith NECESSARILY brings grace? If not, then you can't be said to be saved through faith any more than saved through works.

parrvert

10/20/2002
10:15:51		 Zoobrenok

Message:
When and why did you first become a christian?
I ask because while I cannot be sure that Jesus is purely a work of fiction, it would take more than a 1000+ year old book to persuade me to become a christian.

nobody

10/20/2002
12:53:44		 The Lawsuit

Message:
The Lawsuit against the historicity of Jesus has started
Friday, the 13th september, Luigi Cascioli, author of the book "THE FABLE OF CHRIST" has formally presented near the court of Viterbo (Italy) a complaint against the ministers of the Catholic Church in the person of Don Enrico Righi, parish priest of Bagnoregio, for abuse of the popular credulity (Art. 661 C.P.) and for substitution of person (Art. 494 C.P.).

nobody

philaretus

10/20/2002
13:13:31		 nobody

Message:
This might interest you. The pagan philosopher Celsus wrote a treatise in which he claimed to have unmasked Christianity as a fraud. It was later deemed to be so dangerous that the Church ordered all copies not only of the book itself to be destroyed, but also all books in which Celsus was quoted (even for the purpose of attacking Celsus). However, one source did survive: the ADVERSUS CONTRA CELSUM by Origen. It's on this site:

duke.usask.ca/~niallm/252/Celstop.htm

I daresay it will feature in Ciascoli's case.

nobody

10/20/2002
14:04:08		 philaretus

Message:
thanx

I read most of Jesus and the "Jewish Critic", boy that Jew really hates christiananity.

I read all of "Christians and Society" there were some very interesting points in that.

nobody


zoobrenok

10/20/2002
20:21:34		 nobody

Message:
Could you please give me a link for the lawsuit? -- I'd like to follow it...

zoobrenok

10/20/2002
20:26:45		 philaretus

Message:
I don't think I understand your question.
Here is why: What God did 2000 years ago was because of His Mercy and Grace. Now it is up to me to accept it through faith.
So, God made His move, and now all I need is to remember what it is said in Hebrews 11:6
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

If you could ellabirate more and explain better your question, then maybe I can give you better answer?

zoobrenok

10/20/2002
20:40:10		 "antibody"

Message:
OK, folks. If you think "antibody" is an explanation for healing, well maybe it is -- after all, somehow God has to go do it, right? I am not sure though that any science can come up with way of doing it "God's way", so it still remains a miracle.
---
Now, let me give you another example that can not be explained by "antibody":
Last summer (year of 2001) I was $3000 short to pay my brother Univercity bill. I had less then 3 weeks left and there were no way in the world I can come up with that money - we all are on fixed paychecks, meaning that we know an exact ammount we will bring in this month, next month and in two months from now. There were no place to borrow money either (not to say that I hate borrowing and prefer doing it on my own).
Well, as you would expect from me (after all, I am one of the "fundies" here hehe), I prayed about it asking God to help me in that situation. TO make long story short, when I was driving to church on Sunday (what a co-incedent), my car was hit by GMC Yukon SUV. A sailor from New Zeland was a driver. Monday morning I get a call from his captain who says that he wants to do everything without involving insurance company because insurance company will make this a long story and they don't have time. Anyway, I endup with exactly $3000 dollars in my pocket by Friday of that week after prepaying for all expences associated with that event with money captain gave me to settle everything down.
Now, do you think that God who brought a person from another half of the world just to provide me with enough money to pay my bills can not do the same for you if you join Him? Or do you think this is also can be explained by "antibodies"? Or maybe that sailor who was for the first time in San Francisco driving with his freinds from the yacht crew searching for a nice bar to spend an afternoon liked me so much that he wanted to bless me with some money?

Don't know what you think, but I am going to stay with my theory -- of God moving to answer my prayers. After all, I am one of the "fundies" ;-)

ravenloche

10/20/2002
22:53:01		 zoobrenok

Message:
:>) I would plus you if I could *you have already
plussed zoobrenok*

nobody

10/21/2002
03:40:20		 philaretus

Message:
I didnt save all the pages I visited but I think most of my post are covered in the following links.

www.nomades.ch/~terron/englishpages/history/cascioli_how.htm

www.luigicascioli.it/index.asp

www.luigicascioli.it/denuncia.asp

www.anti-religions.org/english/cascioli_intro.htm

www.anti-religions.org/english/cascioli_denonciation.htm

nobody

philaretus

10/21/2002
04:15:28		 nobody

Message:
I think it was zoobrenok who asked for the lawsuit links. :)

nobody

10/21/2002
04:35:44		 ooooppppsss

Message:
Your right philaretus sorry about that.

zoobrenok

10/21/2002
22:30:03		 nobody

Message:
Thanks for the links.

But here is something to make you think the other way around -- here some recently published archeological results that provide even more proof for Bible.

First, here is main URL:
www.bib-arch.org

Second, here is the link that provides some information about a person who might be Jesus brother:
www.bib-arch.org/bswb_BAR/bswbbar2806f1.html

Here is more about Old Testament:
www.bib-arch.org/bswbBreakingIllSpecial2.html

In general, I would recommend that "main" URL to everyone - both to komei-like and to hehasrisen-like type of people because this is a scientific site that provides information from both parties - anti-Bible and pro-Bible.

nobody

10/22/2002
04:11:24		 zoobrenok

Message:
I am sure the subject in previous discusions of the fact that Jesus had family (brothers and sisters) was mentioned. In fact it was me that asked the question. The answer at the time was that Jesus had 2 or 3 half brothers all of which disliked Jesus and thought that he was not the son of God.

Your first link is suggesting that Jesus had one brother called James who was in fact like Jesus in the way he spread the word of Christians. I find this rather curious dont you?

nobody


nobody

10/22/2002
04:24:35		 zoobrenok

Message:
After reading through the third link. I found one what I consider very important point. That is the bible stories were all written two or three hundred years after the event. So not only are they open for error because they are written by man. But they are not written in anyway by God.

nobody

nobody

10/22/2002
05:19:27		 brother Univercity bill.

Message:
At first when I read this I thought zoobrenok had had a bit of good fortune (not a miracle). After reading it again though I think he actually lost out (or conned the sailor lol).

If the repairs were really $3000 worth then its fair to assume that the car was worth more. If the car were sold then the accident would not of happened which would of ment the poor sailor would not of been out of pocket. zoobrenok would of had cash left to spare. As it is in the story zoobrenok remained broke and had a broken car to add to his miseries.

zoobrenok do you still think that god helped you lol

Again I ask why would God answer your prayer and not that of a couple who has a child dying?

Why are you more important?

Is it not a sin to believe that your prayers were answered whereas others are not?

When I said millions earlier throughout time there has been millions. Did you know that out of all pregnancies less than 35% actually are born. A lot of women lose a child without even knowing they were pregnant.

nobody

zoobrenok

10/22/2002
08:48:56		 nobody - $3000

Message:
I've got more then $3000 as a settlement payoff. $3000 is what left after paying all the bills associated with fixing a car.
I am driving '99 Honda Accord.
------------
"Why are you more important?"
I don't think I am more important, but what I do know is that it is written in the Bible that God says "Call unto me and I will answer" and in another place God says this: "My hand is not short".

God is not like your old MS-DOS, and He is not even like UNIX -- He has REAL multitasking enabled :-). He is at the same time in all places and He hears and answers prayers of millions of people at the same time. Usually OS at any given moment of time serves only one request, but that period of time is so small, that it seems like mutli-tasking. But not with God of the Bible -- He is everywhere at all the times.
After all, is not what you have expected from the most powerfull being in Universe? ;-)

Jesus said to his followers -- "whatever you will ask from My Father in My Name, He will give it to you". He also said that if we to have as much faith as the smallest seed on the planet, we would be able to move mountains around re-arranging face of the Earth. While moving mountains is not what most of us are intersted in, coming up with huge ammount of cash to be able to spend extended vacation in those mountains -- this is what we are up to :-).

It is not bad to be happy about God answering your prayers!

The point I am making is that Christianity is not about your neighboor or about someone in far away country who is dying because he/she has not eaten in 3 weeks. Christianity is first about YOU getting to know God and letting Him to help you to become all you can be. And then once you know God, you will know the right way to help those poor people.

Bible says that God is looking for a person to stand in a gap for his city before God. Do you think you can do it or this challenge is too much for you?
-------------------------
"Again I ask why would God answer your prayer and not that of a couple who has a child dying?"

How would I know? - Am I God? No, so don't ask me. But instead go to the source -- God Himself and see if you can get His attention and answer to that question.
-------------------------
"pregnancies"
Statistic was released last month about Russia - only 3 out of 10 make it to birth in Russia. 7 are lost either due to abortion or miscarriage (which is related to diet, not knowledge problems).

Once again - it is not about that person around the block knowing Jesus. It is about ME knowing Him.

And now it is time to eat and go to work :-)

nobody

10/22/2002
10:20:22		 zoobrenok

Message:
<< The point I am making is that Christianity is not about your neighboor or about someone in far away country who is dying because he/she has not eaten in 3 weeks. Christianity is first about YOU getting to know God and letting Him to help you to become all you can be. >>

So christains are supposed to be selfish?

What your saying sounds more like devil worshipping.

Come on zoobrenok I dont care if half a dozen christain babies die because their parents prayers were not answered as long as my brother gets to go to Uni. I dont care that somewhere in the world someone is starving, I got what I want.

<< "Again I ask why would God answer your prayer and not that of a couple who has a child dying?"

How would I know? - Am I God? No, so don't ask me. But instead go to the source -- God Himself and see if you can get His attention and answer to that question. >>

I can explain. It is simply that no miracle or divine intervertion happened at all. If you had not prayed the accident would still of happened. If it was an act of god that caused the accident then someone else is having to pay for god answering your prayer.

I have had moments when good fortune crossed my path (not as often as what I would like lol). I didnt need to pray for it though. If I need something I will find a means (legally) of getting it I dont ask for help from a superior being because I have given up trying to find a solution myself. I have even predicted someones future and it happened just as I said it would. Not because of any special powers I have, but from judgment and luck.

nobody

zoobrenok

10/22/2002
10:35:57		 nobody - URL

Message:
Have not I told you that you will find what YOU want there? :-)

If you want my opinion on it --- there will be more artifacts found that proove Bible story then otherwise in 40 years from now.

And as far as all those researches -- they are not completed yet. Even if someone looks on artifact and says it is 2700 years old, tommorow someone will come and say that it is 2750+ years old, closer to 2800 years old based on this and that and something else.
You should not base your faith on it (just like it is written in Hebrews 11)

zoobrenok

10/22/2002
11:14:05		 nobody - accident and rest

Message:
"So christains are supposed to be selfish?"
No, but you are missing the point - things are done in certain order. Remember what Jesus said about wood in someones eye? - Same here: first you and I must met God, then after fellowshiping with Him we will know how to help those people, not the other way around (I am not saying that if someone starts helping people, God won't met that person, it is more along other lines -- you met God, then He will show you what to do to benefit community the best).
And Christians are not supposed to be selfish - it just that when you look on certain things under certain ungle, you might start thinking that Christians are selfish -- but we are not. Simply because we care about destiny of our ethernal soul more then about destiny of someone elses soul does not make us selfish. Maybe because once I met Jesus I know I am going to make it to the other end and I am not that much worried about those things (at least I don't think about them daily..)? I think I might be getting confused here (and you too I guess), but I am just trying to highlight what Paul said --- making entire world go to heaven at the price of your own soul having spend ethernity in hell, is a bad trade. So, help yourself and then help the others, not the other way around :-).
-----------------
"...I dont care if half a dozen christain babies die..."
You are missing a point. If you still don't understand what I am trying to say, I can post an explanation later - long posts... :(
-----------------
"accident would still of happened"
How do you know? How do I know? Do you need more testimonies? How about this one:
Rick Renner is US missionary to former USSR. In early 90's he had one of the best Christian TV programs on TV for republics of former USSR. One day he was on his way to TV company to extend his contract with them (for Ukraine). He did not have any money to pay for the program (by "crazy" laws there you have to pre-pay for a year ahead). He prayed, and God told him that money will be supplied. So Rick went and signed a contract. By contract he had 1 month to come up with money (before first program in next contract year goes on air). Little that he knew at that time that an old lady had her ant (who she barely knew) pass away and that she inherrited huge ammount of money from her. That old lady decided to gave away money to church because she did not have any kids or relatives. SO, she prayed and God told her to give money to Rick Renner. Rick received money on time to pay for his program in Ukraine. But this is not the end of the story -- next year comes along and Rick has a same story -- time to extend his program for another year, but he does not have money again! He prays again and he receives a word from God to go and to sign the contract because God will provide all the money required. How would Rick know that on a day he signed a contract that old lady who gave him money last year would pass away and by her will his mission is a sole benefitiary and that money they have inherrited would be enough to pay for another year of airing a Christian program on the air!

As it was not a 'good fortune' for me to get my money (by the way - it was not a poor sailor who paid, but company that owns his ship and maybe even insurance company of that ship - I received check from company that owns a ship because all international sailors must be fully insured for anything they do in foreign country I think), it was not a good fortune for Rick Renner to get his money.
Of course you can try to explain it as a 'good fortune', but I would rather suspect that it is not so - because I have seen so many Christians go from near the bankrote stage in life (both financially and mentally) to wealth.

In fact, in Ukraine they made a research and found out that 46% of all people who joined church between 1994-1997 had they income gorwn significantly, 30% saw a little growth and 15% did no see a change or slight decrease. 9% saw significant decrease in income (can you imagine how honest am I with you by giving you this?). Just one respondent saw a very significant decrease in income, but even by his own words he was "a very, very bad person before he met Jesus" (meaning that he was a gangster hehehe).

So, since we define 'fortune' as something that takes place in life of just few individuals and we have 76% fortunate people, I can say that it looks to me more like a 'law' then 'fortune' :-).
-------------------------------
"If I need something I will find a means (legally) of getting it I dont ask for help from a superior being because I have given up trying to find a solution myself."

This is why I like you! --> I do the same thing, with one exception of course - I do ask God to bless all I am doing so I will be successsfull every day of my life and I do have right to ask for it because my Bible says that God is willing to bless me. Story with University was a good example. But I did have a plan in case no money would come my way on time -- just put entire bill on credit card, then get another card with introducery 0% APR rate and keep transferring balance until it is paid off. Of course paying it in cash and not owning anything to anybody is much better :-). Thanks God for it! =:-)

pfif

10/23/2002
17:38:14		 Original post - lawsuit

Message:
There are always people out there trying to refute the Bible and that Jesus is the Messiah.

Must mean it is true. Especially with all of the attacks - Jesus was guy, the movie that showed Jesus having an affair with Mary while hanging on the cross. All unprovable hypothesis that go no where and make the arguers look foolish and immature.

Read Josh MacDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Virtic." He was an atheist who set out from a challenge by a college student to prove her wrong - the Bible is true. He did and his work has become one of the most comprehensive studies proving the Bible - - - - -TRUE.

Good God hunting if you take the challenge.



nobody

10/24/2002
05:43:32		 pfif

Message:
have you got a link or have I got to find the book?

I have other threads also that that maybe of interest for you to read and maybe participate in.

gameknot.com/fmsg/chess2/606.shtml

gameknot.com/fmsg/chess2/900.shtml

gameknot.com/fmsg/chess2/947.shtml

Welcome to game knot by the way :-)

nobody

philaretus

10/24/2002
07:52:43		 pfif

Message:
As far as I can ascertain, the text of Macdowell's 'Evidence that Demands a Verdict' is not available on the web, so if you want to cite it in debate, you'll have to supply some samples of the evidence.

nobody

10/24/2002
08:45:49		 pfif

Message:
All I could find was a short sentence that said

MacDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Virtic." proves that Antiquities 18.3.3, is corrupted.

pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/josephus.html

nobody

zoobrenok

10/24/2002
10:43:15		 nobody

Message:
what is "Antiquities 18.3.3"?

nobody

10/24/2002
10:47:58		 zoobrenok

Message:
I am not sure lol

I think its part of Jewish scripture.

Maybe pfif could enlighten us :-)

nobody

philaretus

10/24/2002
12:21:15		 nobody

Message:
This is the celebrated passage in Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews (though Book 18, chapter 4 in my edition). I'll post it in full later this evening --- unless someone else gets in first. :)

philaretus

10/24/2002
13:34:37		 Josephus

Message:
<<At the same Time there was one Jesus, a Wise Man, if at least a MAN he may be call'd. He was a great Worker of Miracles, and a Teacher of those that were curious and desirous to learn the Truth, and he had a great many Followers, both Jews and Gentiles. This was the Christ that was accused by the Princes and Great Men of our Nation. Pilate deliver'd him up to the Cross; and all this notwithstanding, those that lov'd him at first did not forsake him. He was seen alive again the third Day after his Crucifixion, as had been foretold by several Prophets; with other wonders that he wrought; and there are a Sort of People that to this Day bear the Name of Christians, as owning him for their Head.>>
(Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII)

This is the only mention of Jesus by Josephus. The passage has long been dismissed by most scholars as an interpolation. If Josephus really wrote it, then he was a Christian; but he wasn't. It's not difficult to understand why some scribe, worried by the fact that Josephus wrote the history of Jesus' times without mentioning Jesus, would want to repair this omission. But he overdid it: referring to Jesus as being more than a man would have been regarded by any right-thinking Jew as blasphemous.

nobody

10/28/2002
09:01:23		 The King James Bible

Message:
It was the ‘wisest fool in Christendom’, who ‘authorized’ the translation and publication of the first Protestant version of the Bible into English. He came to the English throne in 1603 and quickly became unpopular because of ‘his disgusting personal habits and his unsavory character’.

He pretended to be a scholar in theology and philosophy, but his learning was shallow and superficial. He wallowed in filth, moral and physical, but was endowed with a share of cunning that his associates called, ‘a kind of crooked wisdom’.

For his new edition of the Bible he issued a set of personal ‘Rules’ the translators were to follow and ordered revisions to proceed, although he never contributed a farthing to its cost. Work began early in 1607 and took a committee of forty-seven men (some records say fifty-four, others say fifty) two years and nine months to rewrite the Bible and make ready for the press. Each man received thirty shillings per week for his contribution. Upon its completion in 1609,a remarkable event occurred –the translators handed over the reviser’s manuscripts of what is now called the

King James Bible to King James for his final personal approval. ‘It was self-evident that James was not competent to check their work and edit it, so he passed the manuscripts on to the greatest genius of all time ...Sir Francis Bacon.’

The first English language manuscripts of the Bible remained in Bacon’s possession for nearly a year. During that time: ...he hammered the various styles of the translators into the unity, rhythm, and music of Shakespearean prose, wrote the Prefaces and created the whole scheme of the Authorized Version.6

Bacon also encoded secret information into both the Old and New Testament At the completion of the editing, Sir Francis Bacon and King James I had a series of meetings to finalize editorial matters associated with the new Bible. It was at this time that King James ordered a ‘Dedication to the King’ to be drawn up and included in the opening pages. He also wanted the phrase ‘Appointed to be read in the Churches’ to appear on the title page. This was an announcement clarifying that King James had personally given the church ‘Special Command’ for this particular version of the Bible to be used in preference to the vast array of Greek and Latin Vulgate Bibles current at the time. His reason was personal, as King James had previously instructed the revisers to ‘defend the position of the king ’ in their restructuring of the texts. This was seen as an attempt to distance the Protestant Bible from the Catholic version. The Protestant versions of the Bible are thinner by seven books than the Catholic version and the variant churches have never agreed on a uniform Bible. In their translation of 1 Peter 2:13 the revisers changed the phrase ‘the emperor, as supreme’ to ‘the king, as supreme’. Because King James’ Bible was written to support the authority of a king, the later church often referred to it as the one from ‘authority’, and it later came to be presented as if officially ‘authorized’. In subsequent revisions, the word ‘authorized’ found its way onto the title page and later still came to be printed on the cover, giving King James’ new Bible a false sense of authenticity.

The King James Bible is considered by many today to be the ‘original’ Bible and therefore ‘genuine’ and all later revisions simply counterfeits forged by ‘higher critics’. Others think the King James Bible is ‘authentic’ and ‘authorized’ and presents the original words of the authors as translated into English from the ‘original’ Greek text. However, the ‘original’ Greek text was not written until around the mid-Fourth Century and was a revised edition of writings compiled decades earlier in Aramaic and Hebrew. Those earlier documents no longer exist 9 and the Bibles we have today are five linguistic removes from the first Bibles written. What was written in the ‘original originals’ is quite unknown. It is important to remember that the words ‘authorized’ and ‘original’, as applied to the Bible, do not mean ‘genuine’, ‘authentic’ or ‘true’...

nobody

zoobrenok

10/28/2002
09:14:24		 Re: The King James Bible

Message:
Why everyone is so concerned about one version of Bible in one particular language???

There are hundreds other translations in hundreds other languages. And they all read about the same - yes, there are slight differences in wording in some places that can be spotted by person who has read Bible in several different languages, but nevertheless to say that all those differences are minor and one with open mind can see that those different wordings only prove the point better!

So, maybe instead of talking about Bible roots we should talk about Jesus?

nobody

10/28/2002
09:52:08		 Sir Isaac Newton On The Bible

Message:
In 1690, Sir Isaac Newton (died 1727) wrote a manuscript on the corruption of the text of the New Testament concerning I John 5:7 and Timothy 3:16. It was entitled, "A Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture." Due to the prevailing environment against criticism, he felt it unwise to profess his beliefs openly and felt that printing it in England would be too dangerous. Newton sent a copy of this manuscript to John Locke requesting him to have it translated into French for publication in France. Two years later, Newton was informed of an attempt to publish a Latin translation of it anonymously. However, Newton did not approve of its availability in Latin and persuaded Locke to take steps to prevent this publication. Below are excerpts from "A Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture."

Newton on I John 5:7

Newton states that this verse appeared for the first time in the third edition of Erasmus's New Testament. When they got the Trinity; into his edition they threw by their manuscript, if they had one, as an almanac out of date. And can such shuffling dealings satisfy considering men?....It is rather a danger in religion than an advantage to make it now lean on a broken reed. In all the vehement universal and lasting controversy about the Trinity in Jerome's time and both before and long enough after it, this text of the "three in heaven" was never once thought of. It is now in everybody's mouth and accounted the main text for the business and would assuredly have been so too with them, had it been in their books. "Let them make good sense of it who are able. For my part, I can make none. If it be said that we are not to determine what is Scripture what not by our private judgments, I confess it in places not controverted, but in disputed places I love to take up with what I can best understand. It is the temper of the hot and superstitious art of mankind in matters of religion ever to be fond of mysteries, and for that reason to like best what they understand least. Such men may use the Apostle John as they please, but I have that honour for him as to believe that he wrote good sense and therefore take that to be his which is the best."

Newton on I Timothy 3:16

In all the times of the hot and lasting Arian controversy it never came into play . . . they that read "God manifested in the flesh" think it one of the most obvious and pertinent texts for the business. "The word Deity imports exercise of dominion over subordinate beings and the word God most frequently signifies Lord. Every lord is not God. The exercise of dominion in a spiritual being constitutes a God. If that dominion be real that being is the real God; if it be fictitious, a false God; if it be supreme, a supreme God." Newton also wrote a discussion on two other texts that Athanasius had attempted to corrupt. This work has not been preserved. He believed that not all the books of the Scriptures have the same authority.

Reference A. Wallace, "Anti-Trinitarian Biographies," Vol. III, 1850.

nobody

nobody

10/28/2002
10:10:49		 zoobrenok

Message:
Church accused of fraud Thats the subject of this thread. If you want to talk about Jesus fine start up a Jesus thread. I will participate. However I never started this thread to talk about Jesus the idea is to point out that the bible is not perfect. To point out parts that have been edited to make people assume things that may or may not be true.

nobody

zoobrenok

10/28/2002
10:59:03		 nobody

Message:
My point is that if you put all the accusations against the church in past 2000 years together, you will be able to fill biggest soccer field in the world, but it does not change anything.

nobody

10/28/2002
11:16:07		 zoobrenok

Message:
Do you realise what will happen if the Vatican lose the court case. Christian beleif will come to an end and turn into a Pagan religon. Priest all over the world will not be able to preach about Jesus.

End of the Christian era

nobody

zoobrenok

10/28/2002
11:39:09		 Re: zoobrenok

Message:
nobody, why do you think that it will mean an end of Christianity?
nobody, why do you think that they can win that court case?

This year a lot of people got very scared when court ruled that words "one nation under God" should be removed from Pledge of Allience in USA. Guess what took place next? - 100% of our Congress ruled in support of "under God", higher Court dismessed the rule of the lower court.

Even more - what we found out is that person who went to court with it, said that those words were harrassing his daughter.. But his daughter is a Christian! Suprise, suprise...
-------------
Why do you think that God is not ready for any type of decision that will come from that court?
Let me tell you even more -- in Revelations you can read that in so called "last days" there will be a lot of prosecution. World komei imagined in one of his earlier posts where you would have you head cut off for saying "Jesus" is not that far away from us - so, if I am warned about it, why do you think it will mean end of my faith?
--------------
In fact, if court rules against Christianity, iit would only prove that Bible prophesies are true.

And if it does not, well, it means that some judges do have a head on their shoulders and that sometimes they use it to think :-).

nobody

10/28/2002
12:14:21		 zoobrenok

Message:
<< why do you think that it will mean an end of Christianity? >>

Let me see if there was no Jesus then would christiananity still excist. If it is proved beyond all doubt (which is what is claimed) that Jesus did not excist then do you think that people will stand by a faith that is not true or find another? Your whole faith is based on the fact that Jesus is the son of god if that is false then there is not much left.

<< why do you think that they can win that court case? >>

Did I say that I thought they could. They do seem very confident. I wouldnt be surprised if they lost because the church may influence the judges.

<< Why do you think that God is not ready for any type of decision that will come from that court? >>

There are people that beleive in God without beleving in Jesus. What makes you think they are wrong and you are right? God is not being taken to court the Vatican is for making up a false God called Jesus?

What did the Old Testiment say about worshipping false Gods?

I suppose it says nothing about worshipping humans that never existed lol

nobody

zoobrenok

10/29/2002
00:08:42		 nobody

Message:
Let me put it this way:
You are bringing up questions that have asked for many generations. And they started right after Resurrection..
Did it change anything?

My point is simple - for 2 thousand years people have been trying to proove that Jesus is not who Bible says He was. They used to kill people for sharing Gospel for many hundreds of years. Guess what? -- They still do it in nowdays in China, Muslim Countries, India...
So, if court says that there were no Jesus and forbids to worship Him, will it be something new to us, Christians?
No - read Book of Daniel to find out mroe about persecution. In case you don't remember - King ordered everyone to worship to him as to the god, but Jews did not agree. 3 of them were thrown in to the oven and survived the fire (and later their accuers were killed by the same fire once king saw who is Real God), then Daniel had to spend a nigth in cage with lions - probably the safest night he ever had!
------
Bible says that ways of enemy (meaning - devil) are well known and that he can't come up with anythning new. This is why that court decision will not change anything - we've been through this before, but people tempt to forget about past and do not wish to learn from their mistakes....

zylstraj

10/29/2002
00:54:03		 nobody;

Message:
Do you really think that if a court proclaimed Jesus & the Bible false, all of us Christians would stop believing? We answer to the Highest Court that exists, and have no intention of being swayed by the error of men. There has been much debate in these forums about "proof" where God is concerned. Each of us that believes in Christ has experienced proof, the depth of which is so profound it cannot be shaken.

PS - A "court" convicted Reuben Carter, and another aquitted O.J. Simpson of murder. Minor examples of the potential for error where human judgement is concerned.

His servant,

-JZ



nobody

10/29/2002
04:26:56		 zoobrenok and zylstraj

Message:
You guys are great. Your loyalty towards your faith is truely magnificant. However you do seem rather blinded by it. It is clouding your judgement. Looking at things from a logical point is not what your about.

What did the Greeks think when they were told that Olympus was not real and their Gods were not real. Did they instant say it must be true. You can say the same for every other religon that has been nulified. As my example with Lillith.

What you guys are over looking, is that Jesus will not be taught at schools, or at church (if the court case goes that way). In fact it would proberly be taught in history lessons in schools, that the church made up the Jesus story. Which means then the only people who would be able to teach about Jesus are, people like yourselfs.

Problem with that is, you dont all know the same story. I asked a simple question on the link below and it was answered by a few Christians. All of which had different answers. You would of thought, that all being followers of Jesus, the one fact that they would know is, the day Jesus was crucified and the day he was ressurrected. If its not possible for all Christians, to know the answer to that simple question when they have been taught about the bible, what are future Christians going to answer.

gameknot.com/fmsg/chess2/970.shtml

nobody

nobody

10/29/2002
04:57:27		 Breaking news

Message:
Church admits to the following:

The staged crucifixion in Rome

The initiation of Jesus in Egypt

The concealed place of Jesus’ death

The names of Jesus’ three Royal wives

Why the church burnt 12,000 Jewish books

The need for the church to forge historic records

Secret ciphers and forgery in the New Testament

Jesus had a twin brother and children

All this information is known as fact to the Vatican but they refuse to make it public. The Vatican has proof and know that it to be true but think that its better to keep the information secret.

nobody

pfif

10/29/2002
12:27:52		 Nobody; Philaretus; Zoobrenok

Message:
Thanks for the welcome to gameknot! It is a great place to play chess and this forum dicussion is very challenging also. I appreciate it!

I will try to find a link to Josh McDowell for you. His second book was written in 1975 titled "More Evidence that Demands a Verdict", by Campus Crusade for Christ, Inc.

I could not find our first book, most likely on loan to a person seeking truths!

When I get more I'll send it or Quot it if there are no links. I'll catch on to your needs!

I will check out your other links as I learn how to utilize this forum stuff better!

pfif



zoobrenok

10/29/2002
12:54:22		 Re: Breaking news

Message:
URL?
--------------
Why do you think I am concerned with what Vatican thinks on this issue?

pfif

10/29/2002
12:56:50		 Nobody

Message:
Josh McDowell is on the internet. Because of his changing "ministry" connections, his items are spread out. What I found was not brillant, but you can get orders of his books, tapes, and information of his current "ministry" activities.

Best link I found was JOSH.ORG

I'll do my research and throw out some "EVIDENCE"!

philaretus

10/29/2002
12:59:33		 zoobrenok

Message:
The Vatican has a lot of the historic relics of early Christianity down in its cellars.

zoobrenok

10/29/2002
13:11:18		 philaretus

Message:
So what?

I think in one of my previous posts I reffered to the archeology professor who said that none should base their faith on what archeology says...

philaretus

10/29/2002
13:15:23		 zoobrenok

Message:
Would you want to base your faith on something that's untrue?

zoobrenok

10/29/2002
13:21:41		 philaretus

Message:
What is Faith?

philaretus

10/29/2002
13:27:51		 zoobrenok

Message:
You're trying to ask questions instead of answering my question.

You're always talking about faith, so I assume you know what it means.

nobody

10/29/2002
14:23:31		 zoobrenok

Message:
Are you sure you want to read this lol

The groundbreaking book, The Bible Fraud by Australian author Tony Bushby

www.thebiblefraud.com/internalgif/untoldstory.htm

A inside look at information, that is in that book and the book being used as evidence in the court case.

www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/menu.html

nobody


zoobrenok

10/29/2002
15:00:19		 philaretus

Message:
You are 100% correct.

Here is my definition of Faith and now it is your turn to tell us why I answered that was on your post as of 13:15:23 :-)

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see

bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=hebrews+11%3A1

philaretus

10/29/2002
15:37:35		 zoobrenok

Message:
My antennae still don't detect an answer to the question I posed:

"Would you want to base your faith on something that's untrue?"

[Gather round, everyone. When a question is repeatedly evaded, you know you're on to something important].

pfif

10/29/2002
16:08:08		 philaretus

Message:
First, you are acting as if a court has already found the information about Jesus a fairy tale. Second, as stated by others prior, this is not the first attempt to try and disprove Bible "facts". If you research for yourself the Roman literature of the time Pontius Pilate was in Jeruselem, you will find that there are records of a uprising, an offering of letting a murderer of Romans free or a "man" who is accused of claiming to be the "king of the Jews". The records also will tell you that Jesus was crucified.

You can also find in Roman records, Peter's crucifiction and more.

I may not have all the facts at my finger tips to reference them, but I do know that the Jewish faith has been tested throughout time and God has proven Himself. The "Christian" faith has also been tested and again God has been there to prove Himself. Does this mean God in every situation intervenes....easy answer, No! For what good would faith be without tests that we must pass.

To continue believing in something, that we know deep down is true, and yet hard to prove.

The Bible states: All know that there is a God (Creator) by just looking at the world (nature, stars, universe, man and his complexities).

My belief is that those who do not accept the fact of a Creator (God) are just lieing to themselves. Yet, these same people will say, "You have your belief because you cannot stand on your own. You need a crutch!"

To each his own. We all must decide for ourselves what we really believe and don't. Thus, a court of law in Italy may not look at all the facts, as some courts are restrictive of the evidences they will allow. Not because the evidence is false, but that the court deems them unrelated to a case or whatever other legal jargon they will put on each issue.

Good God hunting!


philaretus

10/30/2002
04:07:00		 pfif

Message:
I'm not coming down on either side in this --- so far. I'm just trying to find out whether zoobrenok would be willing to:

(1) Examine evidence that might show his faith to be based on untruths.

(2) If the evidence showed beyond reasonable doubt, or that it was more probable than not that they were untrue, admit that his faith was misplaced.

nobody

10/30/2002
05:52:24		 Bible Fraud

Message:
When you examine this book, you will find it discloses nothing less than a new account of the development of Christian belief and provides a conflicting and supportable version to that put forward by the priesthood. More alarming is that the church hierarchy of today admits the nature of the information uncovered here is factual and yet still with holds it from public knowledge.

The main point is the church knows the truth but will not tell the public. The church is not denying the facts in fact they admit the charges. Its weather or not the church should make the info public that is being fought for in court.

The church admits to making up the Jesus story. So there is no question that Jesus was NOT the son of God.

nobody

pfif

10/30/2002
11:28:55		 Nobody

Message:
"The Church" admitting to making up the Jesus story? Imposssible! "The church that started the "Jesus story is long since deceased." That is why you have to look at the writtings of the original deciples, the history literature of Rome in that time period to see if there is mention of the said Jesus, and to be willing to admit that a bunch of people dying for a lie, especially one of a man who was born from a virgin would be rediculous. Especially, if they died and suffered without violence when they were accused of "making it up" back then.

Get a grip. The only way a person of faith in the Messiah (Jesus) is going to change their belief is that the dead sea scrolls and other archiological finds would have disputed the Bible, Old and New Testiments. But then again, they didn't!

Good luck on this "church admits it made up the Jesus story."



nobody

10/30/2002
13:51:34		 pfif

Message:
"The church that started the "Jesus story is long since deceased."

The church has died already did I blink lol The authors have died the church is still there.

Writtings of the original deciples, what history is known of these fictional characters or of Jesus apart from the Gospals?

Hercules son of Zeus was one of a man who was born from a virgin and the son of a God. There are several others including Buddha.

<< Get a grip. The only way a person of faith in the Messiah (Jesus) is going to change their belief is that the dead sea scrolls and other archiological finds would have disputed the Bible, Old and New Testiments. But then again, they didn't! >>

I bet some Greek said that when they were told the Greek Gods were fake. lol

nobody

zylstraj

10/30/2002
14:21:33		 nobody;

Message:
I hope you are not one of those who cries "conspiracy" at every bit of disseminated information you don't happen to agree with. Also, you continue to bundle us believers together under the auspices of the Catholic "church", a highly questionable method of thinking, as I am a rather profoundly dedicated Christian, and find much of what Catholicism and the Catholic church teaches to be a lot of malarky! As pfif points out, the content of the scriptures as we know them today has been verified time and time again, and the discovery and interpretation of the Dead Sea scrolls certainly emphasizes this. Also you claim we are not thinking "logically", or have a limited ability to do so. Most of my friends, teachers, family and others who know me well would almost certainly laugh loudly were they to hear you make this accusation concerning me! Also, zoobrenok, pfif and myself, though not elevated to the echelons of the 2000 and above rating elite, are certainly no slouches, maintaining decent ratings that would not indicate the type of thought processes one would normally associate with someone of limited "logical" thinking ability. (As an aside - I always loved it that Captain Kirk was the only one who could, on a regular basis, defeat Spock, the "logial mastermind", at chess!). No, I am afraid you will have to search for another reason or excuse for why those of us who, though otherwise seem to be of sane and capable mental abilities, show the "weakness" of choosing to believe in Christ. Although we maintain the ability to reason as unbelievers do, we have experienced an "awakening" that allows us to see the spiritual truths inherent in God's creation. To us, YOU, the unbeliever, are the one whose scope is limited, being afflicted with a kind of "blindness", that prevents your understanding.

His servant,

-JZ

thumper

10/30/2002
14:33:24		 zylstraj

Message:
Well said.

zoobrenok

10/30/2002
15:06:07

Message:
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/10/30/asparks.DTL

nobody

10/30/2002
15:45:01		 zoobrenok

Message:
your link goes no where

zoobrenok

10/30/2002
15:55:41

Message:
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/10/30/ asparks.DTL

remove space between / and asparks and try again.

I think we are facing one of the minor and rare formatting here at GK Forums ;-)

nobody

10/30/2002
16:01:30		 zylstraj

Message:
I think you misunderstood what I said.

Your judgement towards the truth is biased because of your faith. this does not mean your not intelligent. Far from it I know a lot differently from that.

What I ment was that you will not accept any evidence dont matter how convincing because you are convinced what you know to be true.

It doesnt matter if your catholic or not. Your religon that you follow originated from the council of Nicea in the year 325. There were christians before this but thier faith was a lot different from yours.

As for the bible being checked. Did you know that the british museum have an original copy of the bible.

Did you also know that there is over 14,000 differences in the original and the upto date version? (I am presuming that of the differences are in spelling, gramma and other minor edits that would of had to of been made in translation).

nobody

nobody

10/30/2002
16:04:50		 zoobrenok

Message:



Item Not Found

The article or page you requested was not found. If this link was sent to you via e-mail or posted on another website, it was probably incorrectly formatted.
If the link that gave you the error appeared on one of The Gate's pages, please mail us and let us know at webmaster@sfgate.com.

You can also go to our search page at: www.sfgate.com/search.

Still nothing there.

nobody

zoobrenok

10/30/2002
16:18:38		 nobody

Message:
Do search for "Left throws the book at Bible's role in U.S. history View from the right" (name of the article).

Meanwhile, let me try to access same URL from another system - works perfeect from this computer...

pfif

10/30/2002
17:08:02		 Nobody, Z Man

Message:
Well written JZ!

Nobody, you are right to assume the differences are minor. As Greek and Hebrew words have multiple english word meanings and you, as and interpreter, must pick the one that is close or closest to the texts meaning. This makes the english interpretation Bibles difficult, as each may pick a different english word. The emphasis here is that you should not just read the word and believe miss represented interpretations, but when you see what may be a discrepancy, study the text, commentaries, original language to get the full meaning yourself. Then your not lead blindly.

You state a copy of the "original Bible". I did not know one existed! For the current Bibles were put together from copys of scrolls, which would have been hard to pass around, or multi-copy as our current format of book making. Thus, an original Bible would have to go to the separate scrolls. Then you end up deciding which scrolls were "God Breathed" which is what they did in Augustines time.

There is a good arguement now: Did the originators during Augustines time really pick the true "Bible Scrolls"? That is where archiological finds like the dead sea scroll and even earlier dated finds come into play. Some of these finds have exactly the scrolls (books) that were picked by the "original Bible makers".

I for one believe that they were directed by the Holy Spirit in their choices and made no mistake. But that is not provable in this forum.

Good God hunting!

nobody

10/31/2002
05:48:24		 Council of Nicaea

Message:
In the year 325 A.D. was perpetrated one of the most colossal frauds and deceptions in the annals of history. This was the date of the Council of Nicaea, whose task it was to create a new religion that would be acceptable to Emperor Constantine, who, at the time, was engaged in the bloody persecution of those communists and pacifists of ancient times who were known as early Christians. What made Constantine, in the midst of his inhuman massacre of these defenseless and despised people, suddenly take over their religion and become its staunchest protagonist, is one of the enigmas of history which has never before been elucidated. On this point Reville, a Catholic apologist, writes :

"The acknowledged triumph of Christianity during the reign of Constantine has always been considered one of the unaccountable revolutions and one of those historical surprises which, unconnected as they seem to be with any phenomena of the past, might almost seem miraculous. One longs to find out by what process the human mind passes so rapidly from a contemptuous and utter denial of the teachings of Christianity to an interest and avowed sympathy for the doctrines of the new creed. ... It was in the Fourth Century, immediately after the most violent persecutions, that Christianity, though embraced and professed by a minority only, succeeded in attaining to a commanding position in matters both social and political."

Aware that the old religion of Rome was in a state of advanced decay and was daily losing its hold on the people, while the persecuted cult of the Essenes, or early Christians, in spite of all the efforts to suppress it through the most bloody and inhuman means, continued to thrive and win the increasing respect of the masses, the Church Fathers, themselves previously pagans whose hands were stained with the blood of those from whom they stole their religion, saw that by adopting Christianity (in a revised form) they could take advantage of the popular prestige created by the martyrdom of the early Christian saints and at the same time win the support of Constantine who, in being converted to the Christian faith, could cover up his own past crimes, gain increased public favor and extend and consolidate his empire.

In order to make the previously despised cult of the Essenes, or early Christians, acceptable to Constantine, Emperor of Rome, the Church Fathers had to remove from its teachings certain doctrines which they knew were objectionable to him. Chief among these was the prohibition against the use of meats and wines, which was a cardinal doctrine of early Essene Christianity. It was for this reason that the churchmen at Nicaea found it necessary to remove from the Gospels these objectionable doctrines, for they knew that Constantine loved the red meats and flowing wines of his midnight revels too much to be willing to accept a religion which required from its adherents complete abstinence from these indulgences, as early Essene Christianity did. To accomplish this, certain "correctors" were appointed, whose task it was to rewrite the Gospels, omitting all that pertained to vegetarianism and abstinence from alcohol. The Church Fathers had an additional reason to do this -- for they themselves had no desire to make such a radical change in their own living habits.

That the original Gospels were rewritten and altered at the Council of Nicaea is indicated by the following statement by Archdeacon Wilberforce, who writes :

"Some are not aware that, after the Council of Nicaea, A.D. 325, the manuscripts of the New Testament were considerably tampered with. Prof. Nestle, in his 'Introduction to the Textual Criticism of the Greek Testament,' tells us that certain scholars, called 'correctores,' were appointed by the ecclesiastical authorities, and actually commissioned to correct the text of the Scripture in the interest of what was considered orthodoxy."

Commenting on this statement, Rev. G. J. Ouseley in his "Gospel of the Holy Twelve" writes :

"What these 'correctores' did was to cut out of the Gospels with minute care, certain teachings of our Lord which they did not propose to follow -- namely, those against the eating of flesh and taking of strong drink -- and everything which might serve as an argument against flesh-eating, such as the accounts of our Lord's interference on several occasions, to save animals from ill-treatment."

There is evidence to indicate that not only were the original doctrines of early Essene Christianity radically changed at the Council of Nicaea and replaced by others entirely different, but that the man whose life was an embodiment of the original doctrines was likewise replaced by another man who exemplified the new doctrines. The name of the second man, who was not a vegetarian and who did not prohibit the killing of animals, was Jesus Christ, who was put in the place of Apollonius of Tyana, the historical world teacher of the First Century.

The first act of the Church Fathers, after they created their new religion and its messiah, neither of which existed previously, was to burn all books they could lay their hands on, especially those written during the first few centuries, which made no mention of Jesus and which referred to Apollonius as the spiritual leader of the First Century, realizing as they did that such books, if not destroyed, constituted a dangerous menace to the survival of their deception. It was for this reason that the churchmen took such great pains to burn the ancient libraries, including the famous Alexandrian Library with its 400,000 volumes, which was burnt to the ground by edict of Theodosius, when a Christian mob destroyed the Serapeum where the scrolls and manuscripts were kept.

nobody

zoobrenok

10/31/2002
08:45:29

Message:
What many are forgetting is that if in fact God of Israel did created this planet and that He did send Someone to pay for our sins then for sure He won't be standing by and watching how millions of people are trying to get to Him using "wrong" Bible. If I were to be that lovely God, for sure I would try to do something about it! And He did on many ocasions of course (Luther is one of the examples, but there are much more). And He continues to do it.

So, don't think that someone will find an "ultimate" true that will be different from what is in the Bible - God takes care of His business, or He is not God, but just another god.
=======================
Let me also remind everyone that Old Testament both in Bible and Jewish religion (sorry - name of the Jewish book jumped out from my head temprorarely) reads the SAME, meaning that there were no fraud there (Remember that unfortunately for hundreds of years Jews and Christains were enemies, so some kind of arrangement betwen them was not possible by definition). And that you can find prophecies about Jesus in Old Testament.
Of course some names of the places are different in Jewish books because they try to pre-serve original spelling while we ajust them in Bible to our current language

nobody

10/31/2002
08:54:37		 zoobrenok

Message:
You beleive in God

You beleive in miracles.

You beleive that God has the power of healing.

You beleive that if your time has come then that is Gods decision.

Where do you go if you have a tooth ache?

Where do you go if you are ill?

Where do you go if you have an accident?

Is the answer the church?

Was it not God who gave you the tooth ache?

Was it not God who who made you ill?

Was it not God who made the accident?

By going anywhere else apart from the church are you not denying your faith?

nobody

zoobrenok

10/31/2002
11:07:58		 Re: zoobrenok

Message:
Q.: Where do you go if you have a tooth ache?
A.: To the dentist.*
---------------------------------
Q.: Where do you go if you are ill?
A.: To the doctor.**
---------------------------------
Q.: Where do you go if you have an accident?
A.: If my car is still driveable, then I would try to keep up with my appointments. If it is not driveable, then I would cancel some of them and get a replacement. If accident was because of me, I would say to the other party and do what law requires me to do in this case. BUT - I would talk to my insurance agent and maybe even a lawer to make sure that it was me who caused it - sometimes we people might have certain ideas, but law might have a different opinion on the situation.***
---------------------------------
Q.: Is the answer the church?
A.: No. Answer is JESUS.
---------------------------------
Q.: Was it not God who gave you the tooth ache?
A.: Most likely person has a tooth ache because she/he has not been taking proper care of it.
---------------------------------
Q.: Was it not God who who made you ill?
A.: Most likely people get ill because they do not take proper care of themselves.
---------------------------------
Q.: Was it not God who made the accident?
A.: If you are talking about that accident that provided me with money to pay my bills - then YES, for rest of them most likely people are simply not following the rules or not being cautios enough to avoid them.
---------------------------------
Q.: By going anywhere else apart from the church are you not denying your faith?
A.: Depending on where you go. But eating McDonald's burger in most cases will not be wrong.
===========================
*: Where do you think I should go if I have that problem? defintely not to the bodyshop! :-) BUT -- I do pray that God would use dentist to deliver me from pain and to make sure that I won't suffer from it again.
---------------------------------
**: Luke (one of the New Testaments authors) was a doctor. God uses doctors to heal people. Do you think there might be any problems with it?
---------------------------------
***: My mom once hit illegally (Tow-Away zone) parked car on the parking lot while pulling from her spot. Insurance companies ruled that both parties involved share same responsibility for the accident even though that other driver was slipping in his car - just as an example of how law works sometimes. There were no damage to my mom car (excluding some scratches on the bamper). That other person went to bodyshop and came up with "faked" estimate of eight thousand dollars (damage to the car was minor and it was old minivan).
===========================
Let me know if it helps =:-)

zylstraj

10/31/2002
12:57:11		 nobody ;

Message:
I don't know what book or site you copied your last post from (the quotations of Reville,Wilberforce and Ouseley excepted), as you fail to mention the source, but it is apparently from another anti-Christian author. The author attempts to sound authoritative, and by so doing engender the confidence of the reader into believing the articles authenticity, even though much of what he states is pure theory and speculation, as well as offering no reference to source. The article assumes that Constantine must have had some ulterior motive for his reversal of policy, without even considering that he may simply have been converted. The entire section referencing the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. and how it altered the scriptures to suit the political ambitions of those in power at the time is unadulterated balderdash, and has no basis in fact whatsoever, being just another "conspiracy theory" , the type of which you seem so recently to become enamored of.
The scriptures as written were preserved by the Essenes, and discovered some 2000 years after being hidden away in caves near the Dead Sea. These scrolls validate the word as is was interpreted, and as we know it today.

On another note, it would seem that you are willing to go to a great deal of trouble, spending copious amounts of time and energy to find sources and references that might discount the Bible and/or cast aspersions on the nature of the Christian faith. I am curious as to why you are so "bent" on this task, and am wondering if you are willing to provide an explanation, if you have one. I am also wondering if you have ever bothered to actually spend an equivalent amount of time and energy reading the Bible itself, in order that you might determine on your own what you feel about the truths or lack of them contained in it, rather than accepting at face value the posits of those clearly against it. I would encourage you to do so if you have not, as you might widen your own perspective, as well better arming yourself for future debate. You might also check out some of the writings of those in the opposing camp, if only to better understand your adversaries, always a wise proposition. (pfif mentioned Josh McDowell).

His servant,

-JZ

nobody

10/31/2002
13:03:12		 zoobrenok

Message:
With the accident question there was no relavance ment towards previous post.

The idea of the questions were to find out where you draw the line between faith and reality.

If God can cure cancer then why not a tooth-ache?

Dont you think there is a possiblity that God may be punishing you for not looking after your teeth?

If your ill dont you think that God may be punishing you for not looking after your body?

If you have an accident perhaps God thinks you should be more careful.

God knows all.

He knows when your neglecting your body or your teeth. He also notices when your careless. Which case could it not be that the tooth-ache, illness accident (an accident involving an injury) then that MAY be Gods way of saying you made a wrong decision and your now paying the price.

If that is so, then instead of going to the dentist, doctor or hospital shouldnt you be going to the church and start begging for forgiveness?

nobody

zylstraj

10/31/2002
13:31:20		 nobody;

Message:
The accident question has been answered before here, and though as a separate topic would be better regulated to a separate thread, I will address it briefly. God has blessed us with "free will", and along with the ability to makes right choices come the ability to make wrong ones (sin). In order for free will to exist, the potential for error, or sin, must exist as well. If God were to physically intervene each time one of us erred, or was about to err, free will would in effect be negated. All of the ills, injustices and corruption present in the world today may be traced back to an "original sin", though those affected may not have had anything to do with it (perhaps you have heard of the "butterfly effect" - if a butterfly in China flaps its wings, it may initiate a sequence that results in a hurricane on the other side of the world). So it is with sin. If I steal a candy bar at the grocery store, does it not have the potential of not only causing the owner to lose profit, but also raising the price of candy bars for everyone else? Lowering the ability of the owner to pay better wages for his employees? And on and on infinitum. One sin, or error, can domino into affecting many. Surely this is a concept you are familiar with. I believe that when God DOES intervene in our affairs, it is generally by means of His Holy Spirit, always influencing the decisions and actions of men in a positive manner, though not easily detectable or recognizable in the conventional sense as an intervention by God, and so preserving the nature and importance of "faith."
Do not blame God for the ills of this world, the responsibility for these may be laid at the feet of Lucifer, and those who succumb to his temptations. Without the grace and mercy of God - things would be much, much worse!

His servant,

-JZ

zoobrenok

10/31/2002
13:36:26		 re: zoobrenok

Message:
Q.: If God can cure cancer then why not a tooth-ache?
A.: If I to get cancer, I would go to the doctor and do all the things doctor would tell me to do - even surgery if this is required. But it does not mean that I will put my faith in God and will stop praying for healing.
-------------------------------
Q.: Dont you think there is a possiblity that God may be punishing you for not looking after your teeth?
A.: I think in this case I am punishing myself for this. There is a set of rules one need to follow to have heathy teeth (Based on how God created us). If that person fails to do it -- then he/she has to face pain. I can even go further - same for your car, TV, computer, eyes etc. etc...
-------------------------------
Q.: If you have an accident perhaps God thinks you should be more careful.
A.: Maybe yes. Maybe not. Maybe I am in accident because someone wanted me dead and send "dark spiritual" forces to kill me, but God spared my life by letting accident to hpnd and me walk away from it? Or maybe what God wanted to emphasize is for me to take another look on what is important in this life, am I really ready to go or there is still something I should do (like getting my relationship with Him on the right level)?
-------------------------------
Q.: If that is so, then instead of going to the dentist, doctor or hospital shouldnt you be going to the church and start begging for forgiveness?
A.: Let me put it this way - in most cases no. But sometimes - yes. I won't explain since "yes" case is rare. However, while you are on your way to hospital, you'd better be praying that God would use those doctors and heal you...
=========
Let me conclude with this to address this concern of yours:
C.: The idea of the questions were to find out where you draw the line between faith and reality.
C.: :-)
In Russia they say something like this: "put your hope in God, but don't be fool".
Here is how I understand it (and I think it shows how to draw a line between faith and reality):
Once you prayed to God about your problem, solution is on its way. Just don't be stupid enough to miss it. If you don't have money for food on Friday and someone offers you to clean garden for $10 an hour all day long on Saturday -- don't be fool, it might be God who send that person to you. Have your eyes open to see Gods work and this is how I understand that saying.

To me, faith became natural and that is why it is hard to draw a line the way you ask it. When God is real to the person, how can you seprate Him from reality?
------------------
At one time I used to pray to God like this: "God, please show me those big miracles like in other people lifes" "Like healings from cancer, AIDS" "Like surviving a big car crash or plane crash"

Guess what was the answer? "You don't want to be in that situation". That phrase crossed my mind when I was praying along those lines once. Let's skip a discussion whether it was God speaking to me or me using my brain to think for now as it is not the point here. The point is that I really don't want to have AIDS to get healed from it - even though it would be a real 100% miracle.

It took me some time to understand what it really means. Now my prayers are among these lines: "God, please open my eyes to see your miracles that surround me daily". And I think I am starting to see them. From simple phone call from telemarketing that kept me home extra 2 minutes so I won't get to car accident to more complex things.

"God, please open my eyes to see your miracles that surround me daily".

nobody

10/31/2002
13:43:03		 zylstraj

Message:
Just type "Apollonius of Tyana" into your browser and you will find several sites all saying virtually the same thing. If that doesnt work then I will gladly find the link for you.

Why am I willing to go to a great deal of trouble, spending copious amounts of time and energy to find sources and references that might discount the Bible and/or cast aspersions on the nature of the Christian faith.

Why do we do anything. Perhaps I maybe enjoying myself lol

If I think something is wrong should I ignore it and let it run its course?

Have I read the bible ? yes I have. In fact on my desk is "New world Translation of the Holy Scroptures", "The Holy Bible Illustrated" and a "Koran".

I read the bibles and then started checking up on the bible stories, making threads to find out the veiws on others, as I did so. Unfortunatly christians here didnt want to talk about the rest of the bible (it was not important enough). I was told talking about Jesus would be more favourable. So skipping the rest of the bible I started checking up on Jesus. I have been to christian sites as well as anti-christian sites.

I came across the bible fraud case completly by accident. Like you I was not convinced so I started reading up on the subject. I have read a lot about the origins of the bible and I am still reading on it now.

A lot of what I have posted may be controversial but this is the flame wars.

nobody

zoobrenok

10/31/2002
14:05:11		 nobody

Message:
"Unfortunatly christians here didnt want to talk about the rest of the bible"

I think you might have been confused. What we are trying to avoid is getting into the conversation where other party is ignoring the way we look on Bible. Please - if you have more questions on other subjects - post them here!

And yes, right now I don't have anything to do at my work :-). But don't tell it to my boss :-). I am actually busy watching how my scripts are running and debugging them, but I do have 20-30 minutes of time to use as I wish :-)

nobody

10/31/2002
14:09:34		 Josh McDowell

Message:
I have looked up on Josh McDowell. I can find no ebooks and no text detailing any of his books. However I did find out that he has written many books on christainanity, all of which must be earning him a fair size profit. Someone who is writting for profit and not for historical reference cannot be 100% reliable in my opinion. I cannot comment any further without reading what Josh McDowell has written.

nobody

philaretus

10/31/2002
15:02:54		 Nobody

Message:
<<In fact on my desk is "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures">>

If this is what I think it is, it's the Jehovah's Witnesses version, and contains some questionable translations intended to buttress the Witnesses' doctrines, so it's advisable to be careful about using it.

zoobrenok

10/31/2002
15:07:37		 philaretus

Message:
Is this how they call their translation? -- I've heard about it, but never had it my hands.

This might explain why nobody has all these questions :-).

Get NIV or go here: bible.gospelcom.net/bible :-)

nobody

10/31/2002
15:10:45		 philaretus

Message:
Your right again. We have a mormon one here somewhere too. :-)

Do you know anything of the bible in the british museum? I cant find where I read about it. I think it was called the "Sibas" or maybe "Sibal" I not sure.

nobody

nobody

10/31/2002
15:26:42		 zoobrenok

Message:
The Holy Bible Illustrated is not good enough then ?

But it has pictures :-(

If I have a question for you I will ask you because I know you will answer.

nobody

philaretus

10/31/2002
15:31:25		 Nobody

Message:
Do you mean the CODEX SINAITICUS?

philaretus

10/31/2002
15:31:26		 Nobody

Message:
Do you mean the CODEX SINAITICUS?

zoobrenok

10/31/2002
15:32:59		 Illustrated

Message:
nobody - that translation I have not seen :(

But I've heard it has a lot of colorfull pictures and that kids like it ;-).

philaretus

10/31/2002
15:34:40		 Sacré bleu!

Message:
This could be the first time I've double-posted. :/

zoobrenok

10/31/2002
15:38:49		 philaretus

Message:
WELCOME TO THE CLUB :-)

nobody

10/31/2002
16:31:19		 Dead Sea Scrolls

Message:
The shepherd who made the discovery at Qumran brought the seven intact scrolls he found there to an antique dealer. Three were sold to a scholar at Hebrew University and four were sold to the Archbishop of Syria, who tried for years to place them with a reputable academic institution and ultimately sold them in 1954 through a classified ad in The Wall Street Journal. The ad was answered by Israeli archaeologist Yigael Yadin, who donated these scrolls to the state of Israel and established a museum for them, The Shrine of the Book, at Hebrew University.

Control of the remaining tens of thousands of scroll fragments, however, was not soon resolved. One year after the discovery at Qumran, the United Nations partitioned Palestine and war began. Meanwhile, a U.N.-appointed, Jesuit-trained official had summoned Roland de Vaux, director of the Ecole Biblique, a French Catholic Theological School in Arab East Jerusalem, to oversee research on the scrolls. The slow pace of publication and the extreme secrecy of de Vaux's almost entirely Catholic group fueled the theory that the Vatican wished to suppress information in the scrolls.

Then, in 1967, Zionists seized East Jerusalem and the Israel Antiquities Authority took control of the scrolls. Access, however, was merely transferred to yet another small group that seemed determined to hide them from the rest of the world. Israeli officials told prominent visiting scholars that they “would not see the scrolls in [their] lifetimes.” The building media frenzy was furthered by the 1990 dismissal of the project's editor-in-chief, Harvard Divinity School professor Dr. John Strugnell, after he publicly criticized Judaism and the Israeli state. A breakthrough came in September 1990, when the Huntington Library in California made available unauthorized photographs of the scrolls. The following year, text and translations of fifty scrolls were published in book form.

nobody

zoobrenok

10/31/2002
16:47:38		 Re: Dead Sea Scrolls

Message:
Just another reason to finally establish peace on Middle East :(.
-------
Good post by the way

zylstraj

10/31/2002
20:33:13		 nobody;

Message:
Yes, thank you, the Qumran post was interesting. Thank you also for your response to my earlier question. It would seem you have been (called?) to an interesting avocation! I hope you stay interested long enough to find the way. I have not personally read Mcdowall, so I cannot comment there, but my own suggestion would be C.S. Lewis. Perhaps you have already heard of him. In particular a slim volume called "Mere Christianity" , which is the best I have yet to read for explaining what we as Christians believe, and why.

His servant,

-JZ

nobody

11/01/2002
05:17:40		 philaretus

Message:
I am not sure if the CODEX SINAITICUS was what I was looking for or not. I read up on it and it does sound like it could be. Although there was no reference to it being kept in the British museum.

nobody

philaretus

11/01/2002
05:39:16		 Nobody

Message:
Search under the keywords CODEX SINAITICUS BRITISH MUSEUM. Example:

rosetta.reltech.org/TC/extras/Sinaiticus.html

pfif

11/01/2002
21:02:57		 Josh McDowell

Message:
Nope, Josh is not internet friendly. You'll have to go to your local library for free reading or better yet, purchase a booka and support this philanthropist!

It appears that we have a lot of people here on the knot that are looking for truth's by finding falsehood. I can write authoritaively on any given subject given the time to study the subject. I can take a fact and twist it and make the fact look false or maybe doubtful. That is what we find repeatedly in our court systems everyday. Highly paid arguers of doubt. The poor procecutor is burdened with, "proving it without a resonable doubt." All others get to throw doubt on everything, wrongfully if they want, I might add.

It seems that "Christianity and the subject of Jesus" are being bantered around quite a bit here on this forum thread posted.

Now consider that Jesus has been "dead" for nearly 2000 years and that you can find literature that demonstrates that "He never existed" or "The story is all a lie" all through these past 2000 years, must make you wonder why? Why would there be so much energy in proving the story a lie? Why so much time and energy worrying about a lie? Who in history do you know has so much energy spent on, "is He or isn't he!"

Nobody, it reads to me that you are a philanthropist just in waiting. You have so much knowledge locked away in your brain that you could join the "unreliable" by putting into print for profit your knowledge and get RICH like Josh McDowell. What are you waiting for?

I for one will probably choose to stay pure, reliable, and FACTUAL by only posting in the free forums like the knot forum threads. That way you will not call into question my authenticity because I make money by publishing my thoughts or intertainment books.

I am so glad all historians wrote their history for free. Otherwise our history would be tainted and corrupt. We all know historians are paid one way or another, just like new reporters.

But being pure knot writters, we have the truth, the facts, the answers! Only to find another knot thread destroyer who comes along to point out our flawed thought processes and humble us back to the free thinking individuals we are. Not wanting to be lead here and there by smoke and screens, but real meat to challenge us to become better people who might somehow help another human being in their difficult walk her on the earth.

I for one look forward to reading some of the threads. It has been inlightening and inspiring. I love the emotional charge of the writters. And now will appreciate it more, knowing we are not money mongers looking out for the almight profit, but the purity of the debate. :^)

Good God Hunting


philaretus

11/02/2002
04:30:01		 pfif

Message:
What is stopping you from posting extracts from McDowell's book? Or if you're nervous about copyright, summarising its arguments? In general I dislike links in debates except for background information, but more annoying still is being told to go and buy or borrow a book in order to find out what a debater is arguing.

nobody

11/02/2002
09:25:08		 A BRIEF OVERVIEW OF THE EARLY HISTORY OF THE ORTH

Message:
The origins of the Orthodox Church can be traced back continuously to the earliest Christian movement. So can the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Community, and many other Christian faith groups. Each has their own belief system about their group's origins. The following is based on the historical record, rather than on any one group's beliefs.

The first century CE: Circa 30 CE: Founding of Christianity: Christianity was founded by Yeshua of Nazareth, now generally referred to as Jesus Christ -- a Greek translation of Yeshua, Messiah. After preaching mostly in Judea for three years (according to the Gospel of John) or mostly in the Galilee for one year (according to the other three canonical gospels) he travelled to Jerusalem just before Passover. After having committed aggravated assault in the Temple he was convicted of treason or insurrection in Palestine by the Roman occupying forces. Yeshua was executed there, sometime in the late 20's or early 30's CE. His followers formed the Jewish Christian movement under the leadership of James, the brother of Jesus. (The term "brother" in this context has been interpreted by the Orthodox Church as referring to one of Jesus' step-brothers fathered by Joseph in a previous marriage.) 1 They viewed themselves as a reform movement within Judaism. They organized a synagogue, worshiped and brought animals for ritual sacrifice at the Jerusalem Temple. They viewed Jesus as a prophet and rabbi, but not as a deity. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision of their male children, followed kosher dietary laws, and practiced the teachings of Jesus as they interpreted them to be. Many were killed, enslaved, or scattered during the Roman attack on Jerusalem in 70 CE. The movement struggled on for many decades, but eventually disappeared.
Circa 36 CE: Pauline Christianity: Saul, a Jew from Tarsus, experienced a powerful religious conversion on the road to Damascus, Syria, and became the single most important Christian leader from about 36 CE until his execution in the mid-60's. He created a new Christian movement, containing many elements of Paganism from various sources, including Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Persia, etc. He including the concept of Jesus as "The Word", as a god-man, and as the savior of humanity. Paul abandoned most of the Laws of Moses and rejected many of the Jewish behavioral rules that Jesus and his disciples had followed. Paul taught that God had unilaterally abrogated his covenants with the Jews and transferred them to the Pauline Christian groups.

Paul went on a series of missionary journeys around the eastern Mediterranean in what is now Orthodox Church territory. He attracted many Gentiles (non-Jews) to his movement. Paul organized churches in many of the areas' urban centers. He and his movement were in continual theological conflict with the Jewish Christian movement centered in Jerusalem. Paul ran afoul of Roman law, was arrested, and was transported to Rome where he was held under house arrest. He was executed there about 65 CE. Paul's churches survived his death and flourished.

Christian groups typically met in the homes of individual believers, much like home churches do today. There was no central authority, no standard style of organization at the local level, no dedicated church buildings or cathedrals. The Greek words episkopos (bishop, overseer), presbuteros (elder, presbyter) and poimen (pastor, shepherd) were originally synonymous terms which referred simply to the leader of a group of believers.3 The Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was their holy book; the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) had not been assembled. By the time that Jesus' original followers (now called Apostles) died, most of the Christians in the world were Gentiles following Pauline Christianity.

Another competitor to Pauline Christianity was Gnostic Christianity -- a philosophical and religious movement with roots in pre-Christian times. Gnostics combined elements taken from Asian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek and Syrian pagan religions, from astrology, and from Judaism and Christianity. They claimed to have secret knowledge about God, humanity, and the rest of the universe of which the general population was unaware. They believed that the Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures was a defective, inferior Creator-God, also known as the Demiurge. He was viewed as fundamentally evil, jealous, rigid, lacking in compassion and prone to committing genocide. They viewed Jesus as a deity in human form, but not a human. They tolerated different religious beliefs within and outside of Gnosticism. Some Gnostics formed separate congregations; others joined existing Pauline Christian groups; still others were solitary practitioners.

Second and third centuries CE: Pauline Christianity continued to spread across the known world. It started to develop a formal theology, a set of doctrines, and an unofficial canon of writings which were later to become the Christian Scriptures. Much of this development of dogma was in response to frictions between the Pauline and Gnostic branches of the early Christian movement. The Apostolic Fathers had replaced the original apostles by this time. They included a number of teachers and bishops: e.g. Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Origen, Polycarp, Tertullian. A hierarchical organizational structure called the "monarchial episcopate" developed in which the individual congregational leaders recognized the authority of their area bishop in matters of doctrine and faith.
There was considerable friction between the Christian movement and the Roman Empire. Christians were viewed as Atheists because they did not believe in multiple gods and goddesses. They were viewed as irresponsible citizens because many refused to sacrifice in the Pagan temples. Christians came under intermittent and serious oppression.

Fourth century CE: The years of Christian persecution came to an end in 313 CE. Emperor Constantine (289-337 CE) issued the Edict of Milan which formally established freedom and toleration for Christianity. Jews lost many rights with this edict.
There was no single individual who spoke for all of Christianity. The only way in which the Church could resolve matters of belief and practice was to have all of the bishops assemble at a council to debate and vote. The first such meeting was the Council of Nicea, held in Asia Minor (now Turkey) during 325 CE. Only 318 bishops out of the approximately 1,800 Christian bishops then in existence attended. Most came from the Eastern half of the Roman Empire. 2 Much of the debate at this and subsequent councils dealt with the precise nature of Jesus and his relationship to Jehovah and the Holy Spirit.

Circa 330 CE, Emperor Constantine decided to build a "New Rome" on the site of the Greek city of Byzantium (now at Istanbul, Turkey). It was called Constantinople. It became the center of the largely Christian empire. 2 By this time, the church had evolved from a small, scattering of congregations to a geographically widespread church under the authority of many bishops.

Later in the fourth century, Emperor Theodosian issued a series of decrees or rescripts to "suppress all rival religions, order the closing of the temples, and impose fines, confiscation, imprisonment or death upon any who cling to the older [Pagan] religions." 3 The period of relative religious tolerance under Paganism in the Roman Empire ended as non-Christian temples were seized and converted to Christian use or destroyed. Priests and Priestesses were exiled or killed. Pauline Christianity and Judaism were the only permitted religions. To follow another faith group was an offense punishable by death.

Church authority had became concentrated in the five bishops or patriarchs located in Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, Jerusalem and Rome. At the ecumenical council of 381, Rome was given the lead position, followed by Constantinople and then Alexandria. Their ranking followed the secular status of the bishops' cities in the Roman Empire. Each of the five patriarchs was totally sovereign within his sphere of jurisdiction. 5

Fifth Century CE: In 451 CE, the Council of Chalcedon was called to resolve still another debate about Jesus. The East Syrian (Nestorian) church and the Oriental Orthodox Christian Church disagreed with the council's decision that Christ had two natures, one human and one divine. They split off from the rest of Christianity in the first major schism from Pauline Christianity.
Also during the 5th century, various Germanic tribes invaded Rome and destroyed much of the western Roman Empire. The church centered in Rome successfully converted the invaders to Christianity. Authority within the church began to coalesce around the Bishop of Rome in the west and the Patriarch of Constantinople in the east. Divisions between the two power centers in the Christian church gradually intensified.

Sixth century CE: Emperor Justinian called The Second Council of Constantinople for 533 CE. He invited equal numbers of bishops from each of the five patriarchal sees: Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, Jerusalem and Rome. The Bishop of Rome at the time, Pope Vigilius, saw that many more bishops from the east than from the west would be present; he refused to attend.
Subsequent centuries: The eastern and western branches of Christianity continued their process of separation and alienation. This was caused by a variety of factors: The Slav invasions in the Balkans.
The religious language in the west was Latin, while the eastern church used Greek. Bilingual theologians became increasingly rare.
The Eastern churches encouraged national languages for the litergy, whereas Roman Catholicism insisted on Latin.
"While the intellectual thought of Eastern Christianity was driven by Greek teachers, Western Christianity came to be dominated by the teachings of Augustine of Hippo." (354 - 386 CE) 4

"Although the two regions belonged to the same church, they became increasingly remote from each other." 4

The formal split did not occur until 1054 CE when the leaders of the Roman Catholic church and Eastern Orthodox churches excommunicated each other. This formally separated the two movements. Although discussions are currently underway to bring the two churches into unity, little progress is being made.

nobody

nobody

11/02/2002
10:29:53		 History of the Orthodox Church

Message:
Christianity traces itself back to the life , work , death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth whom many Jews regarded as the long-awaited Messiah , thus giving him the epithet 'Christos' , the Greek word for 'anointed one ' . The historical Christ was born about seven years before the era bearing his name and crucified at about the age of 37 . A community of followers came into being in Jerusalem who , in addition to their ties with the Jewish religion , believed in him as the Redeemer . Among them were many who spoke Greek , Jews who had returned from Greece and took a critical stance towards the Mosaic Law . Their leading exponent was Stephen who , according to the report in the Acts of the Apostles , was stoned to death by the Jews , thus becoming the first Christian martyr . With the expulsion of his comrades-in-arms from the city , the first wave of missionary work began , also among the Gentiles . A sharp conflict developed between Jewish and Gentile Christians which , after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. , ended in the Gentile Christians' favour . The Jews' enmity towards the new religion was directed , among other things , against the notion that redemption could also be attained without complying with Mosaic Law . In the first century , it led to the most martyrs among the Christians , costing , among others , Barnabas in Cyprus his life . An anti-Christian attitude was also initially adopted by Paul who , after an experience leading to his conversion in about 31/32 A.D. , became the most important preacher of Jesus's message , although he had not got to know the founder in person .

Forty years after the Crucifixion , the first reports appeared setting down Jesus's work in writing ; the Gospels were written down between shortly before 70 and shortly after 100 A.D. The first Christians had still lived in the expectation that Christ would come again very soon . The longer this event was delayed , the greater the need for an organisation of their own became , which would guarantee the faithful tradition of the message of redemption . As a result , the term 'church' , which was derived from the Greek word kuriakos meaning 'of the master' and was originally used to mean the community , was transformed . It now became an institution . The existence of the office of bishop is documented from the turn of the first century ; he was regarded as a successor to the Apostles and thus traced his authority indirectly back to Christ . He was to ensure the unity of the community . But for this purpose , Jesus's message had to be set down clearly , and as there was a considerable need for interpretation here , Christian teaching came into being , also in dispute with the pagan outside world , as apologetics , as defence not infrequently following the principle that attack is the best form of defence . A creed was formulated , about the correct form of which there was to be much discussion . Taking the reports about Jesus , an attempt was made to obtain directions for a righteous life . This included the sacrament of the Eucharist by which His memory was to be kept alive . From this developed gradually the third , now first meaning of the word church , the house of God in which the Eucharist is celebrated .

On the way to a state religion

Christianity initially spread especially in the East of the Roman Empire . From the mid-third century on , Christians were persecuted and suppressed several times , but at the beginning of the fourth century Emperor Constantine promoted the new religion . For the Roman state as well as for the early Christian church , the linking together meant a turning point . The link did not result inevitably from the previous development , but was the result of Constantine's far-sightedness . Considerable corrections were required - once again both in the state and in the church -so that the unequal parts would fit together . It was already an audacious venture to link together the pompous cult of the emperor with the doctrines of charity , selflessness and non-violence . Eusebius of Caesarea developed the theological justification for the omnipotence of the emperor in his argument from analogy . The one emperor corresponded to the one God . Emperor Constantine I let himself be buried as the 13th . apostle , and alongside his throne a place remained empty for Jesus , whose deputy and co-regent he and his successors claimed to be . In contrast to the West , in the Orthodox area the Emperor retained his sacral competence ; the theory of the two powers , which Pope Gelasius developed in the 5th. century to differentiate from Constantinople's claims , did not correspond with the political reality in the East . In this lies one of the most important differences between East and West : the interpretation of the institution 'church' drifted ever further apart . Whereas in the West it was able to achieve autonomy for itself owing to the lack of a central power thus forming a counterweight to state power , in the East it remained under imperial control . Even in the modern period , the idea of the separation of Church and State has not been able to gain acceptance .

Councils and schisms

At the time when the church became a state organ , the internal development of the organisation and the teaching was far from complete . Thus , especially in the initial phase , violent controversies occurred . There was the matter , for example , of the attitude towards Christians who did not accept the fate of a martyr during a persecution , but later wanted to return to the bosom of the church . This was settled in favour of a mild position . Another point of dispute was the question whether an ordination or baptism given by such an apostate might be recognised ; here too a positive decision was taken . However , the majority of problems was caused by the differentiation from polytheism which was close to the doctrine of the Trinity of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , and the question of how the interplay of man and God in Jesus Christ is to be understood : Was He above all a man who was inspired by God , but not Himself divine , because created by God , thus also eternal ? If the second answer had been accepted , known as Arian after the Alexandrine presbyter Areios , then for many believers the expectation of salvation , the redemption of the world , would have become doubtful . On the other hand , it was an understandable interpretation , and many endorsed it , including several emperors . The church , however , rejected this solution . At the first ecumenical council in Nicaea , the problem was solved by the differentiation into being and hypostasis , form of appearance : Christ and God are one being with two forms of appearance . Arianism still lived on for a long time , it had not been eliminated by the council's decision , thus showing that questions of faith are not to be resolved , at least not always , by decree .

nobody

nobody

11/05/2002
16:05:47		 JAMES, the Brother of JESUS

Message:
Even before the discovery of the Scrolls in 1948 by some Bedouin in the caves near the archaeological ruins of Qumran by the Dead Sea, one of them had already been well know for many years.
The Damascus Document (CD, 4Q266-73, 5Q12, 6Q15) had been found by a Jewish scholar, Solomon Shechter in a Geniza ( store room for discarded manuscripts) of the Ezra Synagogue in Cairo in 1896.

"And in the age of wrath, three hundred and ninety years after He had given them into the hand of the King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, He visited them, and he caused a plant root to spring from Israel and Aaron to inherit His land and to prosper on the good things of His earth. And they perceived their iniquity and recognized that they were guilty men, yet for many years they were like blind men groping for the way.
"And God observed their deeds, that they sought Him with a whole heart, and He raised them a Teacher of Righteousness to guide them in the way of His heart."
Thus begins the document and the start of the controversy.
We know the date of Nebuchadnezzar very well, it should therefore be quite simple to identify this "Teacher of Righteousness" and the other characters that occupy the documents associated with the find.
They should be found in the time period of the Hasmoneans (The Maccabees) around 197-177 BC.
From various separate documents we find this group of enigmatic characters:
1) The Teacher of Righteousness or the Righteous Teacher
2) The Wicked Priest
3) The Liar, Spouter of Lying, Scoffer/Comedian
4) The Traitors
5) The Violent Ones or the Violent Ones of the Gentiles
6) The Simple Ones of Judah doing Torah
7) Seekers after Smooth Things
8) Simple of Ephraim
9) The Kittim.
With the date established and the history of the Hasmoneans quite well known, it should be quite simple to identify each of these characters.
In fact according to Professor James C. Vanderkam a leading expert on the scrolls and one of the international team presently translating the scrolls
"The honest answer is that no one knows. It seems most likely, given the archaeological levels at Qumran that the Wicked Priest was either Jonathan the Maccabee or his brother Simon"
He gives no identification for the Teacher.
Even as early as the 1960s there were major scholars who cast doubt on this interpretation of a pre-Christian date for the scrolls. Both Cecil Roth, the editor-in-chief of the Encyclopaedia Judaica and a reader in Jewish Studies at Oxford University, and Godfrey Driver also a Professor of Hebrew and Semitic Philology at Oxford advocated the position that the Scrolls should be dated to the post-Christian era, more specifically at around the time of the Judean revolt between 66-74 AD.
They were quickly silenced by the official team at that time under the leadership of Father Roland de Vaux the director of the Dominican-sponsored Ecole Biblique. For some inexplicable reason he was placed in charge of a translation team that consisted of not one Israeli and in fact not one Jewish scholar to translate the Hebrew and Aramaic scrolls.
Such was the position until Professor Robert Eisenman came along in the mid-eighties. His credits were substantial. Professor of Middle Eastern Religions and Director of the Institute for the Study of Judeo-Christian Origins at California State University, Long Beach. He was National Endowment for the Humanities Fellow at the Albright Institute of Archaeological Research in Jerusalem and is a visiting senior Fellow at Oxford University. His Ph.D. was from Columbia University and he was a Senior Fellow at the Oxford Centre for Postgraduate Studies.
He was the primary mover for the release of the Dead Sea Scrolls from the grip of the cabal controlling them for so many years and was the consultant to the Huntington Library who finally released its photographic archive of all the scrolls thus allowing scholars around the world, free access to what had been a closely held monopoly.
No lightweight, a man not easily dismissed either for his tenacity or for his scholarship.
Having accomplished one of his goals, that of making the scrolls available for all scholars to study, he set about attacking the commonly held view that Qumran was a monastery inhabited by an Essene sect well before the time of Christianity.
His masterwork on the subject is 1,000 pages of academic argument which is too involved to go into at this point.
What he argues is that the internal evidence of the documents themselves just doesn't fit a pre-Christian Hasmonean setting. Part of his argument is that in that time frame it is impossible to identify all the players without stretching the arguments. If the time frame were correct he argues there would be no doubt as to the identification of "Righteous Teacher" and "The Wicked Priest". That is certainly not the case today when there are as many theories as to their identification as there are theorists.
He dismisses the date suggested by the Damascus document (as do many scholars who still maintain the Hasmonean date) as being a fiction. However I have suggested that if the Talmudic Chronology (as defined by Rabbi Yossi a disciple of the great Rabbi Akiva) was accepted when that document was written then the date suggested by the document would be approx. 225 years or so later in Herodian Times.
In meticulous detail Robert Eisenman shows that The Righteous Teacher was James the brother of Jesus, The Wicked Priest was the High Priest Ananas and the Spouter of Lies was none other than Paul. This of course seen from the perspective of the writer of the sectarian scrolls at Qumran.
All that would be controversial enough and it certainly was when the 1,000 page book came out and largely ignored by his fellow scholars in the field. It was just too complicated to argue against.
I, however, tried to pursue the matter because the origins and purpose of the Dead Sea Scrolls still remains one of the great mysteries.
My question was a simple one, which nobody else seemed to have asked. If The Righteous Teacher was James, the Brother of Jesus, and St. Paul was the liar, then who was Jesus in the sectarian documents. He must be there as a player at least as important as the others. I could see absolutely no mention of Jesus in any of Eisenman's works regarding this topic. Some other scholars had identified him as The Righteous Teacher, but that had been widely discounted.
An Australian Professor Barbara Thiering had proposed that "The Teacher of Righteousness" was John the Baptist and The Wicked Priest and The Spouter of Lies were the same person, Jesus. Her book "Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls" and documentary brought forth howls of protests from around the world and quickly dismissed and forgotten.
This outcry must have chilled the publisher of Eisenman's book and even Eisenman himself because he made the calculated decision NOT to identify Jesus in his theory.
I was not to be denied. I sent him fax after fax asking him the simple question. If James the Brother of Jesus is the Righteous Teacher, who was Jesus, I couldn't find a character in the scrolls that would fit the picture.
He never answered the faxes until one day his assistant called and everything was made crystal clear. There was no mention of Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls because Jesus as a living historical figure, in their theory, did not exist. They could not state that publicly because of the fear of an outcry, but that was the situation.
Now there had been so-called minimalists, foremost amongst who is G.A. Wells, who has written extensively propounding this theory but who even academics in the field dismiss completely.
The more accepted academic position as exemplified by the work of John P. Meier in his "A Marginal Jew, Rethinking the Historical Jesus" which is part of the Anchor Bible Series, questions much of the validity of the New Testament without for a moment doubting the actual historical existence of Jesus.
No wonder then that a scholar of the eminence of Professor Eisenman and a publisher of the respectability of Viking Press, a subsidiary of Penguin Books should attempt to keep the most explosive conclusions of the work, a closely guarded secret.
We will see how this all ties into the conspiracy theory that the Vatican assisted in suppressing the release of the Dead Sea Scrolls and suggesting that they were pre-Christian, because early on they had discovered the "truth" subsequently found by Eisenman. All this published in 1991 by Simon and Schuster as "The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception" by Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh.
If all this sounds like the script of an Indiana Jones Movie, stay tuned, the story gets even more fantastic.
In the meantime we will start a discussion on the net to search for the following answers.
1) Is there persuasive evidence to refute Eisenman's theses that James was the Teacher of Righteousness?
2) If Eisenman is correct is there a character mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls that can be identified with Jesus?
3) If not, and Eisenman is correct, is there another reason why Jesus is not mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Michael S. Sanders
Irvine, Easter 1998


Bibliography
1. James the Brother of Jesus by Robert Eisenman (ISBN: 0670869325)
2. The Dead Sea Scrolls Today by James C. VanderKam (ISBN: 0802807364)
The best popular book on the Dead Sea Scrolls available. A very good introduction.
3. The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception by Michael Baigent & Richard Leigh (ISBN: 0671734547)
An Introduction to Eisenman and the conspiracy theories
4. Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls by Barbara Thiering (ISBN: 0060682868)
Very controversial and difficult to follow.
5. The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians (ISBN: 1852307854)
His early papers on James
6. The Jesus Legend by G. A. Wells (ISBN: 0812693345)
The minimalist approach.
7. A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus by John P. Meier (ISBN: 0385469926)
The consensus academic viewpoint which will surprise and frighten people of faith.
8. Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls by Lawrence H. Schiffman (ISBN: 0385481217)
A very comprehensive survey of The Dead Sea Scrolls.
9. The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English by Geza Vermes (ISBN: 0713991313)
The best and most comprehensive translations of the Scrolls.
10. The Mystery and Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls by Hershel Shanks (ISBN: 0679457577)


nobody

pfif

11/06/2002
17:57:40		 nobody

Message:
Items from Josh McDowell's book.

F.F. Bruce, Tylands professor of biblical criticism and exegeses at the University of Manchester rightly has said: "Some writers may toy with the fancy of a 'Christ-myth,' but they do not do so on the ground of historical evidence. The historicity of Christ is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the hitoricity of Juliaus Caesar. It is not historians who propagate the 'Christ-myth' theories." 1/119

Otto betz concludes that, "no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus." 6/9

John Montgomery asks: "What, then, does a historian know about Jesus Christ? He knows, first and froemost, that the New Testament documents can be relied upon to give an accurate portrait of Him. And he knows that this protrait cannot be rationalized away be wishful thinking, philosophical presuppositionalism, or literary maneuvering." 3/40

References to Christ:

Cornelius Tacitus (born A.D. 52-54) A Roman historian, in 112 A.D., Governor of Asia, son-in-law of Julius Agricola who was Governor of Britain A.D. 0-84. Writing of the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians at Rome.

"But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procuratro of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischif originated, but through teh city of Rome also." Anals XV. 44

Ticitus has a further reference to Chritianity in a fragment of his Histories, dealing with the burning of Jerusalem temple in A.D. 70, preserved by Sulpicius Severus (Chron. ii. 30.6).

Lucian: A satirist of the second century, who spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians. He connected them with the synagogues of Palestine and alluded to Christ as: "...the man who was crucified in Palestine because He introduced this new cult into the world....Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping tht crucified sophist Himself and living under His laws." The Passing Peregruis

Flavius Josephus (born A.D. 37) A Jewish historian, became a Pharesee at age 19; in A.D. 66 he was the commander of Jewish forces in Galilee. After being captured, he was attached to the Roman headquarters. He says in a hotly-contested quotation: "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for He was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to Him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amoung us, had condemned Him to the cross, those that loved Him at the first did not forsake Him; for He appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning Him. And the trive of Christains so named from Him are not extinct at this day" Antiquities. xviii.33. (Early second century)

The Arabic text of the passage is as follows: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and (He) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his desciples. Pilate condemned Him to be curcified and to die. And those who had become his diciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that He had appeared to them three days after His crucifixion and tht He was alive; accordingly, He was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

The above passage is found in the Arabic manuscript entitled: "Kitab AlUnwan Al-Makallal Bi-Fadail Al-Hikma Al-Mutawwaj Bi-Anwa Al-Falsafa Al-Manduh Bi-Haqaq Al-Marifa." the approximate translation would be: "Book of History Guided by All the Virtues of Wisdom. Crowned with Various Philosophies and Blessed by the Truth of Knowledge."


pfif

11/06/2002
18:12:33		 nobody continued

Message:
Seutonius (A.D. 120) A Roman historian, court offical uner Hadrian, annalist of the Imperial House, says: "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (another spelling of Christus), he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius 25.4 He also writes: "Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstion." Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

Letter of Mara Bar-Serapion: F.F. Bruce records that there is: "...in the Britixh Museum an interesting manuscript preserving the text of a letter written some time later thatn A.D. 73, but how much later we cannot be sure. Theis letter was sent by a syrian named Mara Bar-Serapion to his son Serapion. Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage his son in teh pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who persecuted wise men wer overtaken by misfortune. He instances the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ: "'What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plaque came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after tht that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of gunger; the Samians were overwhilmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. but Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; He lived on in the teaching which He gad given.'" 1/114



nobody

11/07/2002
06:39:20		 pfif

Message:
So in fact all you have is a few words out of a few books that suggest a person called Jesus was around. There were several lol

All the records that you have mentioned, do not tell us anything about the history of Jesus. Just that he was there and was referred to as the great teacher or king of the Jews.

The Jews never acknowledge Jesus as being thier King, so that was a label given to him by that particular author?

The Jewish Messiah concept (“Christ” in Greek) would not necessarily be a subject with which Josephus’ readers were all that familiar. If Josephus were going to introduce the term, one would expect him to feel constrained to provide a discussion of it somewhere. In fact, the Messiah idea was such a dramatic one, that if one of his characters had actually been designated as such by his followers, Josephus could hardly have avoided addressing this unusual man and episode at some length.

Yet curiously enough, the whole Jewish tradition of messianic expectation is a subject Josephus seems to avoid, for he nowhere directly describes it, not even in connection with the rebellious groups and agitators in the period prior to the Jewish War. (His one clear reference to the messianic “oracles” of the Jews, the object of whom, he claims, was Vespasian [Jewish War 6.5.4], is dealt with in very cursory fashion.) This silence and this reluctance (if it be so) would seem to preclude the likelihood that he would introduce the subject at all, especially as a simple aside, in connection with Jesus.

Cornelius Tacitus

"Christus, the founder of the name was put to death by Pontius Pilate"

In other words the person beleived to of started the cult religon known as the christians was put to death. No mention of who the person was or where he come from or in fact anything about Jesus at all.

Flavius Josephus

Moreover, if he is merely looking for some quick way to identify this Jesus for his readers (one of many by that name in his chronicle), he has a much easier, and less charged, way to do so. He simply has to say, “the one who was crucified by Pilate.” This is a point which supposedly did appear in the “original” passage of Antiquities 18 postulated by scholars, one that would have been easily remembered by the reader. If in fact Josephus had written the “authentic” Testimonium, with no reference to the Christ, the point about Pilate would have been the automatic choice. (This ignores, of course, the consideration that no such crucifixion by Pilate actually took place.)

So far the earlist written document, that you have mentioned, was written 40 years after Jesus was put to death. Were there no writers who had met Jesus or heard of him durring his own life time?

This person who is going around performing miracles, must of been well known, every where he went. So why didnt anyone write about him?


What did Jesus do between the age of 1 and 30?

Why is there no documentation of this?

Could Jesus himself read & write?

If so, where is all his work? (he had at least 30 years to write in)

Have you read up on "Apollonius of Tyana". His life is recorded. He was known as a Magi. His life was very similar to that of Jesus. Scholars have suggested that either Jesus or Apollonius of Tyana are real. However they both cannot be real. So one or the other must be fake.

The following link is what zylstraj asked for earlier in this thread. At the time I had lost it but finally here it is. As zylstraj pointed out it is a one sided veiw. I shall try and find a more critical veiw on "Apollonius of Tyana".

www.apollonius.net/bernard1e.html

nobody

11/07/2002
08:24:32		 critical veiw on "Apollonius of Tyana"

Message:
APOLLONIUS OF TYANA, a Greek philosopher of the Neo-Pythagorean school, born a few years before the Christian era. He studied at Tarsus and in the temple of Asclepius at Aegae, where he devoted himself to the doctrines of Pythagoras and adopted the ascetic habit of life in its fullest sense. He travelled through Asia and visited Nineveh, Babylon and India, imbibing the oriental mysticism of magi, Brahmans and gymnosophists. The narrative of his travels given by his disciple Damis and reproduced by Philostratus is so full of the miraculous that many have regarded him as an imaginary character. On his return to Europe he was saluted as a magician, and received the greatest reverence from priests and people generally. He himself claimed only the power of foreseeing the future; yet in Rome it was said that he raised from death the body of a noble lady. In the halo of his mysterious power he passed through Greece, Italy and Spain. It was said that he was accused of treason both by Nero and by Domitian, but escaped by miraculous means. Finally he set up a school at Ephesus, where he died, apparently at the age of a hundred years. Philostratus keeps up the mystery of his hero's life by saying, " Concerning the manner of his death, if he did die, the accounts are various." The work of Philostratus composed at the instance of Julia, wife of Severus, is generally regarded as a religious work of fiction. It contains a number of obviously fictitious stories, through which, however, it is not impossible to discern the general character of the man. In the 3rd century, Hierocles (q.v.) endeavoured t« prove that the doctrines and the life of Apollonius were more valuable than those of Christ, and, in modern times, Voltaire and Charles Blount (1654-1693), the English freethinker, have adopted a similar standpoint. Apart from this extravagant eulogy, it is absurd to regard Apollonius merely as a vulgar charlatan and miracle-monger. If we cut away the mass of mere fiction which Philostratus accumulated, we have left a highly imaginative, earnest reformer who laboured

to infuse into the flaccid dialectic of paganism a saner spirit of practical morality.


See L. Dyer, Studies of the Gods in Greece (New York, 1891); A. Chassang, Le Merveilleux dans I'antiquite (1882); D. M. Tredwell, Sketch of the Life of Apollonius of Tyana, (New York, i8B6); F. C. Baur, Apollonius van Tyana und: Christus, ed. Ed. Zeller (Leipzig, 1876,—an attempt to show that Philostratus's story is merely a pagan counterblast to the New Testament history); J. Jessen, Apollonius v. Tyana und sein Biograph Philostratos (Hamburg, 1885); J. Gott-sching, Apollonius van Tyana (Berlin, 1889); J. A. Froude, Short Studies, vol. iv.; G. R. S. Mead, Apollonius of Tyana (London, 1901) ; B. L. Gildersleeve, Essays and Studies (New York, 1896); Philostratus's Life of Apollonius (Eng. trans. New York, 1905); O. de B. Priaulx, The Indian Travels of Apollonius (1873); F. W. G. Campbell, Apoll. of Tyana (1908); see also NEO-PYTHAGOREANISM.

nobody

nobody

11/07/2002
09:12:48		 critical veiw on "Apollonius" pt2

Message:
There is way to much info on Apollonius on this site so I will just post the link. It is a critical indepth look at Apollonius.

www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/apollonius01.html

nobody

pfif

11/08/2002
00:24:49		 All Readers

Message:
Jesus considered who men believed Him to be of fundamental importance. C.S. Lewis, who was a professor at Cambridge University and once an agnostic, wrote: "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really FOOLISH THING that people often say about Him; 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the son of God: or else a madman or something worse." 41/40-41


pfif

11/08/2002
00:31:46		 Readers Cont.

Message:
C.S. Lewis adds that: 'You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." 41/40-41



pfif

11/08/2002
00:52:45		 Virgin Birth!

Message:
Very important in the history of the early church's belief in the Virgin Birth is the testimony of its early fathers. In 110 ignatius writes in his Epistle to the Ephesians, "For our God Jesus Christ was ... conceived in the womb of Mary ... by the Holy Ghost." 52/18.2

"Now the virginity of Mary, and He who was born of her ... are the mystries most spoken of throughout the world, yet done in secret by God." 52/19.1 Ignatius received his information from his teacher, John the Apostle.

"We have further evidence," writes Clement S. Rodgers, "which shows that the belief in Ignatius; time was no new one. For we know that the belief of Christians in the Virgin Birth was attacked by those outside. Cerinthus, for example (and nobody in this thread), was the contmporary and opponent of St. John. It was said that the Evangelist, meeting him in the public baths, cried out, 'Let us flee lest the bath fallin while Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is here.' He (Cerinthus) taught, Irenaeus tells us, that our Lord was born of Joseph and Mary like other men." 37/105

Another of the post-Apostolic writers, Aristides in 125 A.D., speaks of the Virgin Birth: "He is Himself Son of God on high, who was manifested of the Holy Spirit, came down from heaven, and being born of a Hebrew virgin took on His flesh from the virgin ... He it is who was according to the flesh born of the race of Hebrews, by the God bearing virgin Miriam." 2/32

Justin Martyr in 150 A.D. give ample evidence to theconcept of Jesus' miraculous birth. "...Our Teacher Jesus Christ, who is the first-begotton of God the Father, was not born as a result of sexual relations ... the power of God descending upon the virgin overshadowed her, and caused her, while still a virgin, to conceive .... For, by God's power He was conceived by a virgin ... in accordance with the will of God, Jesus Christ, His Son, has been of the Virgin Mary." (Apology 1:21-33; Dialogue with Trypho the Jew)

"The first great Laten-speaking Christian was the converted lawyer Tertullian. He tells us that not only there was in his days (c. A.D. 200) a definite Chritian creed on which all churches agree, but he also tells us, its technical name was a tessea. Now things only get technical names when they have been established for some time. He quotes this creed four times. It includes the words 'ex virgine Maria' (of the Virgin Mary)." 37/103

It appears that these references, much closer to and in direct connection to the first generation believers of Jesus Christ is God and born of the Virgin Mary, much more reliable than a 21st century lawsuit claiming its lies. Especially, since these references are prior to the so called "Fraud of the Church" as referenced by nobody to start this thread.

Done deal, nobody.

I can get more if you like, but the Church was around prior to the Constantine establishment, REMEMBER!

pfif

nobody

11/08/2002
04:00:44		 pfif

Message:
THE FABLE OF CHRIST - THE CHRIST CONSPIRACY
Luigi Cascioli - Acharya S. is the book being used in the court case.

Bible fraud is another book that I came across and used examples from.

Something I have been reading recently, which has nothing to do with the court case (that I am aware of) is apparantly Saul/Paul did not know that Jesus had been born loved and died. In fact he talks of Jesus as though Jesus had not loved at all.

As for the church being there before Constantine. There is no question of that fact. However before the council of Nicea there were several versions of christianity. They were all merged together along with some pagan beleifs to get what we know as christianity today. Anyone who disagreed with the council was thrown out of the church.

Have you read up on "Apollonius" yet?

I have supplied a couple of links.

nobody

pfif

11/08/2002
12:27:47		 nobody

Message:
The facts are that your links are peoples "assumptions of interpretation" on how Paul/Saul wrote and not on what he wrote. Read Paul's epistles and it is clear that he, even though he never meet Jesus, believed Him to be God, the promised Messiah!

I have given outside Bible references of the first and second generation "Church" and you find that they too believed Jesus to be the Messiah, born of a virgin, crucified, and raised from the dead.

When you start to figure out the impossibility of a person fulfilling even 10 or 20 of the Old Testiment prophecies, it would be a staggering impossibility. Now add that Jesus fulfills over the 300 plus prophecies and you can doubt all you want. Jesus could not have influenced a bunch of non-educated fishermen, a hated tax collector, and some other throw-a-ways to rewrite the Jewish scrolls. These men he picked did not have the influence or the power to accomplish that feat. Add to your own admitance that Jesus did not do any memoir on Himself or writings period, other than in the sand, you have to accept the old Books.

Disbelieve if you dare. That is up to you. We who follow Christ are just trying to stop our SIN patterns, to love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. And finally, to love our neighbor as ourselves.

This alone can be anyones great goal. We just add that while doing the above, we also seek forgiveness from the perfect Lamb of Sacrifice, who is the only way to get redemption from our SINS both past and present. So that we may have a chance to come into the Kingdom of God.

Read all you want into the BOOK. But, if you truely read it to understand, you will find lots of examples of why man cannot get to heaven on his own. You will find that God provided a way through a promised Messiah. You will then always be faced with the question, 'Has the Messiah came in the person Jesus Christ, or has the Messiah not arrived yet?" Good luck in your endeavors in finding the truth. I have chosen my truth, in Jesus Christ, my Savior and Lord!

pfif

nobody

11/08/2002
12:43:04		 pfif

Message:
Can I take it that you didnt read up on Apollonius then lol.

Did you know that the word in Hebrew for "lamb" is also the same word used for the word "word"?

So perhaps your "Lamb of Sacrifice"

Could it possibly mean "Word of Sacrifice"?

The word Lamb is used several times in the bible. I wonder if each of those times a real lamb was what the text had in mind.

nobody

pfif

11/08/2002
13:42:11		 nobody

Message:
Or maybe it is in reference to the Bible.

And the Word Became Flesh!

nobody

1/10/2003
06:36:05
[ report this post ]		 Joseph

Message:
We've all been taught that Jesus' father Joseph was a carpenter. "Why not? It says so in the Gospels." But it didn't say that in the original Gospels. By the best translation, it actually said that Joseph was a Master of the Craft. The word "carpenter" was simply a translator's concept of a craftsman. Anyone associated with modern Freemasonry will recognise the term "the Craft". It's got nothing whatever to do with woodwork. The text simply denoted that Joseph was a masterly, learned and scholarly man.

nobody

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