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demuziekdoos
2/10/2004
13:50:09
[ report this post ] |
 Subject: Calculation of team points (2nd thread)
Message:
Here is the second thread about this subject. For the new ones please read the first thread, you can find it at:
gameknot.com/fmsg/chess3/2486.shtml
Let’s continue the discussion here.
Paul (demuziekdoos)
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sly_lonewolf
2/10/2004
16:54:04
[ report this post ] | ....
Message:
After reading all the posted messages, I think the view on having a separate team-league competition would be interesting...especially if GK were to retain it's present team play system...
But, I disagree that only team capt are entitled their say here just because they're the one doing the team arrangements. The members too are actively involved in the team affairs. If others can't express their views, then this thread might as well goes to the 'Team Play Discussion'.
Rgds,
Sly
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fmgaijin
2/10/2004
18:28:43
[ report this post ] | Sly: Voting vs. Discussing
Message:
I hope you didn't misunderstand my last post--while I think that any final decision about team rankings should be voted by the captains, I agree with you that team members should be able to express their views on the subject, both in their own team forums and here in open discussion. Hey, I'M not a team captain!!
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ccmcacollister
2/10/2004
20:38:45
[ report this post ] | Searching for Significance
Message:
for Team Play seems to be what were doing here. "How can I win a GK T-shirt" in team play...I can't. I once drafted D.Justice & 3 other rookies that came to bat #3or 4 that year, spent 50+ hours, and won a T-shirt for Rot.Baseball. Why can't I win a T-shirt (or hat's okay-but Not a Bumpersticker!!) at GK?
...I like Boggs idea. Logical and easy. So I don't see how we can do it. But if we could? Is it perhaps something like the US college team events from the 70's then?
Maybe fmgaijin or someone from the former U of Nebr @L team can comment on that as an added format tothe "otherwise leave it alone" concept.
....
I like the thought of keeping it as is but adding events to that. Hoe about this to start......Let each team select from its membership a League Team of however many. That creates incentive for persons not on it, from the team, to produce for the team in order to BE selected for it. It would include AN OPEN BOARD section of at least the best 4, maybe 6,8,10 that the team can put forth to play there, that want to . Rather an honor I'd think. Maybe have beloe that BOARD SECTIONS of EXPERT, A, B, C, D where the Team chooses 2 or 3 persons from those classes to rep it vs others of the same classes on other teams. ? If you lack Experts you could PLAY_UP an "A", but couldnt play-down anyone of course.
Then somehow, next year after winning 5 games, I join a team and wina T-shirt. This is My Plan.
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icecat
2/10/2004
22:22:07
[ report this post ] | clarification
Message:
.... I meant to say that any sport at the Olympics or Worlds starts on a level
playing field on each competition season.
I understand that not all teams have the same number of players, and that each
are not matched exactly equally for team games.
To have a system where it is next to impossible for new teams coming in to beat
teams who have been here for years is no reflection upon the skill of the new
teams. They might have been playing for twice as long before they came here,
and they might be twice as strong. I do not think without starting new each year
that anyone will every know from year to year which team really has the strongest
players.
From year to year some teams may drop members and other teams may add
members of various skill levels. Starting fresh each year will allow teams to feel
like that have some chance to compete on a level playing field, at least as much as
can be created with the variances between the teams.
If it is impossible for anyone to get to first place because they haven't been here
chronologically as long as the first place team, what honor is there in being in first
place in a system like that?
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coyotefan
2/10/2004
23:04:48
[ report this post ] | On the other hand
Message:
When joining the team competition, you understand the rules. When in any sport are you told the rules are one way, and then have them changed midstream?
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sly_lonewolf
2/10/2004
23:54:12
[ report this post ] | fmgaijin: Apology..!
Message:
Hi, I think I have rushed in making my previous comments. I think I have misunderstood the earlier comments by chuckventimiglia. I would agree that the final consensus should come from all team captains.
To coyotefan, are you implying that the present GK team system is in the 'midstream' ? In my opinion, the way it is now, there will never be an end to it since whatsoever objectives there is present aren't very clear...due to weaknesses already mentioned. So, changing the 'rules' as it is now is actually a making way for improvement.
Just what I think... :)
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coyotefan
2/11/2004
00:10:51
[ report this post ] | Not implying
Message:
Stating outright. I do not see a huge groundswell in changing the team competion. I see 2500+ people enjoying the system. I see the last two teams with each over 20 players and about 1,000 points behind, still very active. I see a few wishing to change the system, and fear that in changing it, they may actually make it worse.
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sly_lonewolf
2/11/2004
00:34:46
[ report this post ] | A poll...?
Message:
I think the best way to know that is by a poll. As for me, I still enjoys being in my team & playing competitive team-matches. But IMO, there is a lack of incentives to play it all out (as compare to a team league/competition idea) and there's not really an effective standard (with the present system) to measure out the perfomance & strength of all team involved....
But you're correct in a way...it can actually be made worse. But then again, that's how it was too during the debate to implement the ELO system.
Rgds,
Sy
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achillesheel
2/11/2004
04:06:37
[ report this post ] | coyote
Message:
By your logic no change could ever be made to the team structure because we always will be in midstream. A very poor argument for the status quo. Indeed, although some have discussed extensive changes, my original suggestion for an *additional* measure of team strength (percentage) would not change any existing rule ... only add.
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coyotefan
2/11/2004
04:12:58
[ report this post ] | No that is not my arguement
Message:
My feeling is that there is not a lot of people looking for this to be changed.
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skeeterss0
2/11/2004
05:02:32
[ report this post ] | We don't know
Message:
How many people would like changes or would like to keep it like it is... Thats why we need some type of poll. Not saying any changes will be made by the outcome. It would just tell us how many stand for what, instead of the few that post in the forums.
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theinvisibleman
2/11/2004
05:41:13
[ report this post ] |
Message:
Maybe I have this all wrong, but it seems to me that the teams in the top twenty are not actually the best teams at all; they are simply the teams that were here first and got organized the quickest.
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chuckventimiglia
2/11/2004
06:28:05
[ report this post ] | A clarification and an.....
Message:
explanation. Yes, everyone should be able to
discuss changes to anything including team
set up and ratings. Yes, I believe that the
final word should be by consensus of the
team captains.
What bothers me greatly is that in the almost
1.5 years I have been team captain we have had 3 or
4 polls and studies. This question has been beat to
death. Do I think that there could be improvements made
in the way teams are ranked. Yes I do, but ever since I
have been here this topic has be discussed and
rediscussed with nothing but discussion being the end result.
The way the teams are ranked right now is what I have been used
to doing. Is it the best, NO but it is what we have.
Fliszt idea sounds the best to me if a change is going to be made.
To change something only to have others discussing another change
is not good. We are in a constant state of flux.
It takes work to be a team captain and it is not very
rewarding when all you see is unhappiness with how
things are done with no way of pleasing everyone.
This is my last post on this subject. I suggest you
go directly to Mike and then I will get involved when/if
the team captains are polled. Personally I do not
think that will ever happen.
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demuziekdoos
2/11/2004
09:54:41
[ report this post ] | some reactions
Message:
Like icecat said: In other competitions (even chess) you start all over again after a period. It would be very strange if the champion of your local chess club (and the other players as well) kept the points from the past years. At a given moment it is possible a player will always be champion, even if he would loose all his games in a year. A new player at that chessclub (let's suggest a grandmaster) will never be able to become champion because he is (for instance) 500 points behind on number one. Even if he scores 100% for several years he still will not close the gap. The current teamtable is likewise, meaningless.
Something must be changed to make the table usefull again. I've made a suggestion and the idea of fliszt (and others with the same idea) to use percentage is a good start in changing, I would still suggest a given period of time. We can start over again every year or use the system I mentioned (only counting the score in the last year to calculate the percentage).
I've send Mike a message and asked him to read these two threads. I hope he will respond. Perhaps he will make some suggestions the teamcaptains can vote about and then implement it.
Paul (demuziekdoos)
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chuckventimiglia
2/11/2004
09:59:42
[ report this post ] | OK Paul (demuziekdoos) that...
Message:
is the right way to go. Let's see what Mike says.
Chuck
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demuziekdoos
2/12/2004
23:43:07
[ report this post ] | a poll
Message:
I've received a message from Mike that he is planning a vote (very soon) on this topic.
Paul (demuziekdoos)
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chuckventimiglia
2/13/2004
07:01:04
[ report this post ] | Good!!
Message:
I hope we can bring this topic to a head
and fix it for good. Chuck
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achillesheel
2/13/2004
08:23:52
[ report this post ] | Someone
Message:
Suggested a formula for calculating a percentage score way back when we discussed this last year (around July or so). I will try to dig that up and post it FWIW.
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demuziekdoos
2/21/2004
14:51:59
[ report this post ] | formula
Message:
Did you find the formula you were looking for achillesheel?
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pebbles
2/21/2004
17:45:28
[ report this post ] | formula
Message:
gameknot.com/fmsg/chess5/1232.shtml
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achillesheel
2/22/2004
05:34:55
[ report this post ] | formula
Message:
Thx pebbles.
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