| From | Message |
alice02
1/07/2005
04:12:38
[ report this post ] |
 Subject: 1.7 mins av move time
Message:
who is the fastest mover on GK. I have found one player - new to GK 2 games , won 1st, winning second at 1.7 minutes. I think he must hold a record.
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cairo
1/07/2005
05:46:32
[ report this post ] | Especially
Message:
when you think this a correspondence chess site! Perhaps you alice02 mean he was playing a couple of blitz games?
Best wishes
Cairo
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alice02
1/07/2005
10:42:19
[ report this post ] | definitely correspondence
Message:
I have looked at both games. I messaged him about the post but dont yet have his consent to state his name.
highest regards
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apastpawn
1/07/2005
21:36:33
[ report this post ] | Negative thoughts here.
Message:
If a player is moving within a couple of minutes a move then they must be playing real time chess here. In other words both on the site at the same time.
I have come across a player playing 30+ games and averaging less than 2 mins.for all games. I highly suspected that this player was using a chess program to play. I play about the same number of games at once and it takes me a couple of mins. just to remember where I was for each game.
That or they live on the web and have this site up and the "wait for your turn " window minimized. This is the only way I can see moving less than 2 mins. on average. But what about games that post a move while they sleep? Don't they sleep or are all games close to their time zone?
So, I am suspect of players who move so quick and avoid them in challenges here.
Would like to hear from quick players to understand how they do it.
Please post here and help me better comprehend.
Thanks,
apastpawn
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alice02
1/07/2005
21:56:12
[ report this post ] | 1.7 mins highly talented
Message:
There is no way that 1.7's moves are anything other than absolutely honest. I have played against players where i suspected computer use and have talked to players who are skilled inplaying against computers. 1.7s moves have nothing in common at all with computer use.
Visual scanning speeds and speed of complex cognition vary between individuals and this person has high level skills.
And yes, i too would love to kow how to develop those skills
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alice02
1/07/2005
22:11:04
[ report this post ] | further thoughts
Message:
i agree about similar time zones. It puzzles me as to how I can have an average move time of 3 hours when most of my games are out of my time zone.
i believe that the greater the difference between ratings, the faster the move speed of the superior opponent. eg if Cairo were to play me he would probably have an average move time of 5 seconds. When someone starts on gk well below their rating they will have a fast move speed. I think 1.7 mins in his first games on the site has not yet taken his rating to its correct level..
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mormel12
1/08/2005
00:06:52
[ report this post ] | there was a time
Message:
my avarage was well below the minute per move, but if you take a look at my rating you'll understrand why that wasn't a problem:)
If you have much online time, which i had back then, and you can respond in just a few seconds in a lot of games, that avarage will be very low.
Right now i don't spend that much time on line anymore and the avarage moved up:)
So i don't know what the number really says, but i never use it.
And yes, i'm more or less a "direct player" and not really playing correspondence chess.
But hey, that's my choise, isn't it?
Maybe i'll learn to play correspondence properly when i'm old, but for some reason i just like it the way it is right now. and i learn a lot here, which is the most important reason to stay.
Greetings
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tag1153
1/08/2005
00:11:07
[ report this post ] | My average time......
Message:
.....is currently 2.8 minutes per move, and I average anywhere from 70-90 games in progress at any given time. I have never, and will never use a computer aid. I simply play fast. I play 1.d4 exclusively as white, and am very in tune with the standard responses to it. I play 1...c4 vs. 1.e4 (Sicilian) and 1...Nf6 vs. 1.d4 exclusively as well, and the same applies - I simply am used to the variations and have decided long ago where my best winning chances are. This is a major contributor to my average time per move. Another would be the fact that the "average move time" clock only starts once I access a particular game - meaning that I can have a game that is ready for my move for ANY amount of time, but my so-called "average move time" is only calculated once I look at the board. My final point on this topic is that when I achieve ANY advantage in a game, I exchange pieces quickly to get to an endgame, shunning positional play and once again lowering my response time due to not having as many decisions to make. Make sense?
tag1153
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thumper
1/08/2005
12:41:25
[ report this post ] | Time time, I need more time!
Message:
I'm on the other side of the scale. My average move time was over 10 days per move just last month and I'm only playing 4-6 games at a time!! I've worked it down to 1.5 days per move currently. ;-)
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furryfunbundle
1/08/2005
13:00:31
[ report this post ] | tag1153
Message:
Is your assertion correct (average move time" clock only starts once a player accesses a particular game)??
Alice suggest (after talking to the web master) that "Average time per move is the time from when your opponent makes a move until you respond with your move".
Anyone any idea which is correct?
Tags explanation would cover off "sleep/zonal" differences????
Thanks
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tag1153
1/09/2005
00:25:05
[ report this post ] | Think about it........
Message:
......if my "average move clock" began after each of my opponents made their moves, then I would have to be on-line 24 hours a day and make my responding moves 2.8 minutes after their responses. As I play in so many games with people from all over the world, this hardly seems feasible. I maintain my earlier position.
tag1153
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honololou
1/09/2005
00:35:39
[ report this post ] | tag1153
Message:
This thread seems to indicate otherwise.
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honololou
1/09/2005
00:36:14
[ report this post ] | oops…
Message:
forgot the link:
gameknot.com/fmsg/chess3/3087.shtml
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greyrabbit
1/09/2005
03:22:32
[ report this post ] | Apastpawn
Message:
I think you've gotten too cynical!
I used to have an average of less than a minute a move. I now tend to leave myself logged in hence the dramatic increase to over an hour a move! As Tag1153 I have never and will never use anything other than my mind to play a game. A fact Tag can attest to through the number of times he's whupped my rear.
Some people play fast, others slow. Some slow players find fast play annoying. I for one certainly find slow play annoying. But provided they are consistent (in move rate and quality) they have to be given the benefit of the doubt.
Cheers
Charlie
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jsemmens
1/09/2005
11:52:19
[ report this post ] | Quick play
Message:
my average is uder five minutes but i log on once a day usually. the main factor is that only a small series of moves mad one after the other can lower that average by alot.
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badbadboy
1/09/2005
18:18:05
[ report this post ] | fast chess programs ?
Message:
Those of you who do NOT suspect a computer with fast players
are absolutely right!
-
e.g:
I could never manage to play 80 games so quickly when using a chess program!
(I have 120 MHZ Pentium with 80 MB RAM and 128K DSL - Only switching to any chess program would cause this machine to swap for minutes :-)
And the chess program would certainly "think" for some minutes for each move.
Is there any chess program out there that can handle 80 fast
games simultaneously ?
We better stop this useless suspections!
-
btw:
Using a computer would make any player have rating above 1800 within some month!
-
In order to stop all this useless chess program discussions forever I would like to
make a suggestion:
-
Gameknot might offer a special service (option) to automatically analyze
all finished games of members using several well known chess programs on
seperate server machines.
-
A move that was neither considered by any of those chess programs as first
choice nor was considered as second choice should be tagged with (w) and all other moves should be marked with (s).
If black player has made any (w) move - weak move - during this games
then we can be certain that he did not use a chess program (because a chess program would make no weak moves at all)
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If he has made only (s) moves - strong moves - during this game then he has possibly used a chess program, but we cannot be sure of this.
-
This way anyone could see that 99,99% of all players never use a chess program,
they use GK for serious games and for learning chess and for fun playing and for
clever conversation and for fun conversation but they do not use Gameknot for fraudulently increasing their rating!
-
I have found a wonderful comunity of outstanding people at Gameknot!
-
Please be careful with assumptions like "fast players use chess programs" or
similar and, please think and calculate before stating any suspections.
Please do not divide this wonderful comunity!
-
best regards, Gerald
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tag1153
1/09/2005
20:29:28
[ report this post ] | honololou
Message:
With all due respect, the thread you posted contained nothing from Mike - just what another GK member claims Mike has stated. While I in no way am suggesting that anyone has mis-spoken on this issue, I would like to hear it from Mike himself. I will contact him and ask him to clarify this issue once and for all. It's not life-or-death, but I'm sure others would be interested as well. Also, thank you to everyone who has chimed in on this! This thread is yet another example of why this site is so great:)
tag1153
PS - If Mike's response proves me wrong, I will humbly rescind my claim and admit I was wrong............
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alice02
1/09/2005
23:52:31
[ report this post ] | below copy of mikes email
Message:
tag1153 re "the thread you posted contained nothing from Mike" I think we have a semantic difference here, it did contain something from Mike because it was a direct quote
email correspondence with Mike
Hello,
Average time per move is the time from when your opponent makes a move until you respond with your move. Averaged over the last 100 moves in all your games.
--
Best regards,
GameKnot.com
> Submitted on: 12/26 00:02:59
> average time per move.
> can you please tell me how this is calculated. I have asked on th
> forum an no one explained.
> also, when i receive a reply i want to send thanks but thought that if
> everyone sent thanks it would double the emails you got so thanks in
> advance for reply
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 28/12/2004
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tag1153
1/10/2005
01:59:34
[ report this post ] | As with most women in my life...
Message:
...I find myself apologizing to alice02. While I still don't understand how it is possible, I humbly accept the truth that I am not near as smart as I think I am and the fact that what she says is the GameKnot truth. Sorry alice................
provenwrongbyyetanotherwomanbutmyegoisstillOK
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ccmcacollister
1/10/2005
05:38:36
[ report this post ] | IS it possible !?
Message:
Well yes, per alice02 's quotation from Mike.
Before that I was of the belief that it must only start counting your time after your actually looked at the move too, or perhaps even only the time you were actually on that game screen. It just seemed like some of the times used by people would be Too FAST otherwise. But now it occurs to me to wonder if THIS is not the case ... that the reason they can be so fast might be that each time they make a move in a game that is PP'd for Vacation Flag perhaps they use 'no time' for that move, so it gets added into the averaging as a "zero" time move?!? OR DOES it count during PP's ? And what about weekends ?
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alice02
1/10/2005
06:17:45
[ report this post ] | thanks
Message:
tag1153 for the apology. I dont accept the self put down part of it though.
:) Is your "provenwrong" link, which in itself is wrong because it doesnt work, an analogy to the Zen question of "what is the sound of one hand clapping"? :). (Aussie humour, I dont know that it is funny globally).
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rose-quarz
1/31/2005
20:28:15
[ report this post ] | question
Message:
I would like to know how someone can have an average move time of just 4.2 mins, which doesn't seem to have changed in the last few days, when he takes 2 or 3 days on every move - against me anyway!
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manhattan
1/31/2005
23:13:20
[ report this post ] | if ya wanna quick games
Message:
play vs me :))
Janis ( Manhattan )
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zargoth123
3/10/2005
08:24:43
[ report this post ] | it makes sense now
Message:
I'm glad I found this thread because I have been pondering this same question for a few days. I have determined analytically that the average time per move is NOT calculated using the amount of time that one "looks at the game" i.e. the time from when you click the link to view the game board to the time when you click submit. This thread confirms it.
I started to wonder how it was really calculated and this thread answered the question.
In light of this explanation, it now DOES make sense how someone can have very fast move times. I often play back and forth with people who are currently online. In fact, I give preferential move treatment to people who are currently online (and who do not hide their online status). Since only your 100 most recent moves are factored in, the games in which I did not move (those where people were offline) are not counted in the calculation and it is understandable that someone can have very fast average move time.
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dysfl
3/10/2005
09:54:29
[ report this post ] | I'm rather quick myself
Message:
I think it is the flip side of the other issue, delaying the game without reasonble reasons. Overall, it’s the habit of the specific player, and you can decide if you want to play with quick guys or not.
My average time is relatively short. So I want to provide my own view why I do that.
1. About the usage of the computer programs, I think it’s just a waste of time even talking about it. At my level (around 1400), why?
2. I play GK not because it is a correspondence site, in the sense of which gives you days to ponder. Rather, I play here because I can rarely find time to play even a 30-minute game at one seating. So, my play style is more like 15 to 30-minute game but stretched out in days or weeks. I don’t look into the board more than 10 minutes, as my limited skill runs out of steam long before that.
3. I use notes. Sometimes I save it like “If Nxe5, Bxe5 check, then double the rooks at c-file”. If it turned out to be like that, I spend even less time to review the situation.
4. Some players never resign till they got mated. I got several games that I spent less than 10 seconds in the last 20 moves.
5. I know that my rating will go up if I spend more time before pressing <SUBMIT>. However, the same applies to my opponents. That’s one of the fun parts in my games.
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coyotefan
3/10/2005
11:25:56
[ report this post ] |
Message:
"I have come across a player playing 30+ games and averaging less than 2 mins.for all games. I highly suspected that this player was using a chess program to play."
I do not know about any other programs other than Fritz and Chessmaster, but there is NO WAY that less than two minutes a move was with these progrmas. When I play against either of these programs, they take up to 10 minutes a move after the game is out of the book.
I really wish that everyone would stop thinking that no matter the situation, their opponents are cheating.
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honololou
3/10/2005
15:38:46
[ report this post ] | coyoyefan…
Message:
I agree that it is a problem that many people are quick to unnecessarily accuse others of
cheating, but computer engines can be set to take as little or as much time as you want
regardless of whether you are in or out of book.
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alberlie
3/11/2005
01:31:48
[ report this post ] | hononlulu...
Message:
have you ever tried to punch in 30some positions into fritz just to let him calculate the next move? And that just to let him give you a 1500-1600 rating? I don't think _anyone_ would go through the trouble...
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coyotefan
3/11/2005
07:05:39
[ report this post ] | honololou
Message:
If you set either Fritz or Chessmaster to play 1-2 minutes a move, as alberlie said, you get a 1500-1600 rated move. If you are running Fritz on a newer PC, it takes hours a move to get a Master type move out of it. Everyone remembers that Fritz beat Kasparov, but what they do not remember is that the program was running on a supercomputer, not a laptop.
I really do not fear anyone here using a computer to beat me. Most cheaters would not be patient enough to get any use out of their program. If they did have the patience, then they could only play a few games at most, and therefore the odds of them playing me are slim.
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alberlie
3/12/2005
03:45:24
[ report this post ] | a bit off-topic but: coyotefan,
Message:
it's got to be a bit better, doesn't it? Because with fritz 8 you have this evaluation-rounds thing where the lowest Fritz can play is approx. ELO 1540. And he doesn't take any time at all - just moves right away. Well, maybe my lap is a bit faster than yours ? ;) but with a P4 2GHz, it's got to do better than 1600 when having a minute or so per move...
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honololou
3/12/2005
09:39:31
[ report this post ] | the only point…
Message:
that I was trying to make (and it is still not refuted) is that it is possible to use a computer engine
to make decent moves quickly—even if you do have 30 games. That is what computers do best. It
may not be a GM-caliber move but it will be tactically sound. And you do not have to enter the
positions fresh every time. The games can be stored in a database so that all you need to do is
open the game file, make your opponent's move and start the engine thinking on its response.
It wouldn't be such a big deal except that the statement "NO WAY that less than two minutes a
move was with these progrmas" with its all-caps emphasis sounds like the final authoratative
word on the subject when it is not even factually correct.
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madmsurf
3/17/2005
03:54:08
[ report this post ] | Message
Message:
I am one with averagetime of 2,8 min.At the moment my rating is 1760,I would never dream of using a computer to help my, because there is no satisfation in that.I like fast play and to treat the games as OTB games. Of course I make horrible mistakes sometimes but thats just a part of playing.If you think that your opponent is using a computer is easy to check it out by replaying the game in Fritz or some similar program.
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coyotefan
3/17/2005
06:31:03
[ report this post ] | madmsurf
Message:
Something I learned a long time ago on a different thread. Running a game through Fritz does not in any way prove anything. Fritz will give you different answers based on its setting and the computer you run. Also by the time you allow it to analyze. Check it out, you will be shocked!! I know I was :)
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madmsurf
3/17/2005
06:35:48
[ report this post ] | coyotefan
Message:
How do they check in the playing zone of Chessbase,it happens all the time there that players are deleted of their rating for cheating,e.g. using a computer.
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