GameKnot Forum
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| From | Message |
hubertfarnsworth
9/28/2007
23:51:25
[ report abuse ] |
 Subject: Advertising here
Message:
Got this message today:
Notice from GameKnot: It appears you are blocking some or all of the advertising on GameKnot (banner ads, pop-ups, etc.). As you probably know, the free accounts on GameKnot are supported by paid advertising, and since you have blocked ads on your computer, we will not be able to continue to provide you with a free account any longer. Please subscribe to a premium membership, or allow all ads to be shown on our website. Thank you for your understanding.
Well, yes, we're playing cat and mouse here, of course. I made a new Firefox profile and thought I'll give it a go this way.
What happened was that I was confronted with blinking and stupid banner ads, firefox telling me that it had blocked five (!!!) popups.
I am fine with banner ads and Google ads.
What I am not at all fine with is popup advertising. Because:
- My desktop is mine, and will remain mine.
- Allowing pages from random advertisers is an unacceptable security risk. Read relevant articles if you want to know why. No way I'll take that risk.
In addition, there are people who use -- or may even be forced to use -- advertisement blocking proxies like privoxy. How are these people supposed to play?
Of course I can get a premium account (and if you are planning to reply just that, just don't). I'll do it soon if treated in a fair way -- that is, if gameknot allows me to continue playing without popups.
Your opinion?
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ganstaman
9/29/2007
01:12:02
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
You have a free account that isn't free for those who run this site. They don't want to have to pay for you to use their resources, so everyone is made happy so long as some company pays for you in the form of ads. If the ads are blocked, then gameknot.com is the one stuck paying for you.
I know it's what you told me not to say, but either you pay or let someone else pay for you. How can you complain about this being unfair when your account is free?
If you're in a situation where you can't get something for free, then that's not really something you can fight or complain about.
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hubertfarnsworth
9/29/2007
01:33:05
[ report abuse ] | Hmmm ...
Message:
ganstaman,
what I have in place in my normal Firefox profile are just the ad blockers that scan everything I read. Please don't assume that I am not aware of the costs of running a server -- but a long time ago web advertising turned into an annoyance, and a slightly less long time ago ad blockers have been invented.
Now we're in a situation where a user may sign up here, start a few games, and be turned away not long thereafter. Does that help anyone?
Please notice that I have stated that I am fine with ways of advertising that don't pose security risks and don't litter my desktop. Those aggressive ones are the ones that make everyone and their dog aggressive anyway, and the names in those ads go straight into my 'never by that' list. Intelligently made and less intrusive ads still get through my normal filter as well ...
Cheers
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chessnovice
9/29/2007
01:40:02
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
Things have changed a bit from when I was a free member, I think. I really don't recall pop-up ads being the norm here, and it disappoints me to hear that they've been implemented. I can understand it's a financial issue, but I dunno, pop-ups have always seemed like a backwards strategy for advertising... I've been online since 1994 or so, and I've never once clicked on a pop-up ad willingly.
If you're blocking the banner ads too, I can't really say much in your favor. Those are a lot less intrusive and I would at least be willing to check them once in a while.
But the site is what it is. You do get what you pay for...
Good luck with whatever happens.
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ganstaman
9/29/2007
10:26:18
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
I very rarely get popups and nothing has ever been put on my desktop. Are we sure these are from gk.com and not some spyware?
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heinzkat
9/29/2007
10:37:16
[ report abuse ] | F.A.Q.
Message:
-> gameknot.com
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van_dammesque
9/29/2007
15:14:48
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
If you use adblock in firefox to block the banners then just select whitelist this site. I got a message too. Also allow every script if you use noscript extension.
It is a small sacrifice to pay./shrugs
I get no pop ups at all on this site, why not run ad-aware to make sure it isn't malware on your computer hubertfarnsworth.
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hubertfarnsworth
9/29/2007
17:43:26
[ report abuse ] | See also Kingchess
Message:
Hi all,
thanks for your comments.
Actually I am sure that the pop up attempts are from Gameknot. I am using an operating system different from the one which the spy ware is usually being written for (Linux to be exact). I know that I cannot be 100% sure without a thorough analysis of what's going on -- but I am like 98% sure. (Adaware would not run here either.) I have taken a look at the JavaScript here, and it's unreadable -- probably it's being compiled automatically from a readable version -- that means the bad readability is deliberate.
When I say "My desktop is mine" then I am talking about pop up windows. These have been condemned as evil in user interface design for a long time. And Firefox (version 1.5 here) is blocking the pop up windows in its default configuration -- no need for extensions ... and I'm not intending to change that.
Also please compare the business models of gameknot and other sites. For example kingchess.de -- The site is completely free of advertisements. Instead I often see messages like "with a pro account you could see this and that information here". No threats involved. That looks much more likable to me.
Cheers
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hubertfarnsworth
9/29/2007
17:52:24
[ report abuse ] | Quest
Message:
Paying members please take a look at this advertisement that I found on Gameknot:
-> cdn5.tribalfusion.com
So ... whoever would deliberately click on that one because it's so interesting, please let me know.
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chessnovice
9/29/2007
18:00:49
[ report abuse ] | Millionth visitor
Message:
Who knows? Maybe Mike would give away a premium membership to the millionth visitor.
Curiosity never killed anything.
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hubertfarnsworth
9/29/2007
18:10:12
[ report abuse ] | chessnovice ... SCNR
Message:
-> www.gilescivil.co.nz
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far1ey
9/29/2007
19:01:55
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
Who cares? I am a paying member but i wouldnt care if a few pop ups came up here and there -> no one ever reads them anyways and there arent any viruses/malware. Its not as though it inhibits my chess playing. Isnt this site about chess? Then play chess and ignore everything else on GK. Simple.
*Be grateful for what GK is offering and giving to you at their own expense*
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ccmcacollister
9/29/2007
20:30:12
[ report abuse ] | Hey wait! WOW
Message:
OMGosh WHAT a Coincidence; You guys were just talking about it, And you're Never gonna guess, B-cuz
~~ -I- AM the MILLIONTH VISITOR~~!!!
Man, what spooky world ...
}8-)
PS {Now I feel So SPECIAL; you guys are lucky to know me!~! This is SO much better than the ghost of Frank Marino showing up at the foot of my bed and telling me to '"Carry On" .... }B-D
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thunker
9/30/2007
10:21:21
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
Pay up and buy a membership and *presto* - no advertising! Don't pay and just accept what you get *FOR FREE*.....
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chessnovice
9/30/2007
10:45:55
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
Hard to imagine why anyone would want to play chess without paying a fee.
Even harder to imagine why anyone would find pop-up ads intrusive.
I think the argument, "You should accept inconveniences because it's free" is a bad mentality to have. It's a hostile approach that is more likely to chase potential buyers away than to give them incentive to buy a membership. It's not as though GK has a monopoly on online chess. The incentive to pay should come from satisfaction of the overall quality of the site, not from the desire to escape its annoying aspects.
I wouldn't go so far as to label it "elitism", but I do think the holier-than-thou attitude that some paid members have against upset nonpaying members is a little bit distrubing.
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tim_b
9/30/2007
10:59:21
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
I sympathise with chessnovice's point re: incentive.
There's something about pop-ups that I find very off putting. Perhaps it is because they remind me of cold callers who come knocking on a weekend and are slow to go away. Maybe I'm being daft, but my knowledge of computers is even less than that of my chess.
The only thing I can say for sure is that if there had been pop-ups here at the time before I chose to pay for a membership, I would not have subscribed.
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ganstaman
9/30/2007
11:24:29
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
I want to make sure it's known that I do not pay for my membership here. I get pop-ups occasionally and then I close them like I do on every other site that somehow sneaks pop-ups in. I've never seen this as a problem, and apparently most here don't or else gk.com wouldn't have so many non-complaining free members.
As for this being bad business -- gk.com has been working like this for a number of years now, so it clearly can't be all that bad.
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thunker
9/30/2007
11:24:59
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
I had an extra computer once that I gave to a friend that didn't have one. It worked fine except one key on the keyboard would stick occasionally. Giving that away was the beginning of a nightmare for me. He would continually call me complaining that the key would stick! And, of course, every time he would delete some needed files, he would call complaining that the computer was broken.
I finally told him "if you don't like what you got for free, then go buy one you DO like!"
The moral of the story: if something is given to you for free, accept it for what it is or go buy it for yourself! The last thing you should do is complain to the person that gave it to you.
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muppyman
9/30/2007
15:13:43
[ report abuse ] | It's an old proverb,
Message:
Never look a gift horse in the mouth. That which comes free of cost should be used free of complaints.
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feelixkoolatchee
9/30/2007
21:56:14
[ report abuse ] | TribalFusion...
Message:
People aren't complaining about paying. I'd happily pay the membership fee if I wanted/needed the perks that come with it. I don't so I haven't.
The issue is being told that we have to to change the way we administer security on OUR OWN computers just to retain our playing privileges.
FastClick, ValueClick, etc. are all tracking cookies and are utilized by GameKnot (and thousands of other sites). These sites collect data on your internet usage and habits to try to better market future intrusive adverts to you.
I completely understand GameKnot's desire to have companies pay them to list advertisements on the site to offset costs, but as computer users on any website, we have the right to run scripts or accept or not accept cookies that collect data on our internet usage.
If that's a non-negotiable point for GameKnot, then maybe they should deal with more reputable advertisers that users will not go out of their way to block.
If they won't, I'll happily find another chess site that won't try to strong arm me into paying for a membership and I'll make sure I tell everybody to stay the hell away from GameKnot.
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chessnovice
9/30/2007
22:32:40
[ report abuse ] | thunker
Message:
An alternative option is that your friend turns to someone else who happens to be giving away a keyboard that functions better.
And I think that's where the analogy is a little weak. Gameknot is by no means the only website that offers chess for free. I believe that those being told "If you don't like it, pay for a better service" are more inclined to just leave (which is counterproductive to the site as a whole). Using your analogy, it would be like your friend not wanting to associate with you anymore when you threaten to take the keyboard away for using it to type in Microsoft Word.
feelixkoolatchee is very much on target with this comment:
"The issue is being told that we have to to change the way we administer security on OUR OWN computers just to retain our playing privileges."
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hubertfarnsworth
9/30/2007
22:42:07
[ report abuse ] | gangstaman, thunker, muppyman, feelixkoolatchee
Message:
The story about your friend and the computer is not nice -- been there, done that. He could of course buy a shiny new keyboard for little money.
The thing is -- he was probably not a potential paying customer of yours.
We non-paying members are all potential paying customers.
The way to make me a paying member is to woo me, to entice me. Not to scare me off. I have been fine with the limited number of games for a while, and I was actually thinking about getting a paid membership soon.
Right now I'm wondering if I really want to use my cash to support a business that scares potential customers off. I'm sure there are more friendly places out there. I've mentioned one already, and I have bookmarked a few more -- in my normal Firefox profile, not in the one that I set up especially for gameknot these days.
The ownership of one's own computer and the security and privacy issues that feelixkoolatchee mentioned are another point that, as stated before, I'm not really fond of.
Cheers
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levellerlevvie
10/01/2007
06:02:57
[ report abuse ] | Well ...
Message:
I think everything about the gifted horse and it's mouth is very true BUT .... Gameknot is making the error here that it thinks to have the right to control the behavior of ones browser. That's totally unacceptable.
If Gameknot uses pop-ups, that's fine by me ... they have the right, although it's indeed considered bad practice. But at the same time a player here at Gameknot can configure his browser as he like and if he wants to block pop-ups then so be it. Gameknot should be smart enough to find ways to overcome that issue besides bullying the player with something like 'Stop blocking our pop-ups or you'll be kicked off this site' (OK they said it nicer but the message stays the same)
Bottom-line: Gameknot does not have the right to tell you how you should use your computer unless it is to prevent cheating in the game itself (See multiple use of same computer). Off course they have the right to close the account of a player at any time because it's there website so ... it's David against Goliath here ... and David seems to be out of stones.
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thunker
10/01/2007
11:06:33
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
But what my friend "could have" or "should have" done isn't pertinent. Only what he did counts and that caused me headaches until I simply put my foot down and said "no more!" Way back in the old days, I used to run a BBS. It was absolutely free. I was always amazed at how users would gripe at me for not enough space, not enough session time, etc... I had some leave me messages chewing me out royally! It was *I* that paid the phone bill - didn't cost them a cent, yet they always seemed to think they had a right to tell me how to run my board?
Well, I'll be sitting back watching with interest to see how successful anyone is in getting Mike to change how he runs his site. He must be doing something right else there wouldn't be anyone, paying or non-paying, here discussing the issue! As he has more to gain or lose than anyone else, he probably knows better than anyone else what has been/is successful in winning customers and thus making money.
Best regards.
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feelixkoolatchee
10/01/2007
12:55:53
[ report abuse ] | Reviews...
Message:
wulebgr-
Great reviews. Hadn't heard of a few of those. Thanks for doing the leg work and sharing here.
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chessnovice
10/01/2007
14:08:45
[ report abuse ] | success
Message:
If you wait for people to leave your community in disgust before you consider that users DO have the right to suggest how things could be improved, then something is wrong.
Gameknot has been around for many years, and it's added some very nice features over the time. However, the amount of time that the site has been up is not necessarily indicative of success. Penny-pinching to the point where users are banned for having very standard ad-blocking software doesn't sound like the idea of a website that is well-off.
I don't expect Mike to change his policies. I've seen that he is generally staunch about the decisions he makes. I think that's fine. What I WOULD hope for, though, is a general attitude change among paying members. It's been the tone for as long as I've been on this site, but I think it's nonsense to have the self-inflated notion that nonpaying members have no right to dislike their experiences here. Even though it may make you feel better to finally say "no more!", it's enough to make someone fed up with the place. That's why it is indeed pertinent what your friend "could have" done -- disrespecting him does you a disservice in the long run.
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thunker
10/01/2007
15:07:11
[ report abuse ] | chessnovice
Message:
Did myself a disservice? Disrespected him? I think not. I merely had to point out to him that to complain about something I'd given him for free was rude behavior. At that point he realized his error and apologized. We're still good buddies to this day. If one never points out others breaches of etiquette, nobody would ever learn from their errors.
It never made me "feel better" to have to do it, but it did resolve the ongoing problem I was having with his incessant complaining to me and him expecting me to solve his problems.
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maryannelightly
10/01/2007
16:41:07
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
I don't mind having whatever ads Gameknot wants me to have on my pc, well at least till I see what it is but got the message and it's true no ads appear, not on opera or ie, the browsers i use. I didn't do anything specific to not have the ads. Why don't they show up ? Are they evil ? How do i turn them on ? Is it safe ? I sent a message to gameknot but they only repeated me that I have to turn on the ads which is fine but doesn't solve the problem, which is keeping my account.
Anybody can say something please ?
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ritschmanhard
10/02/2007
13:07:51
[ report abuse ] | thunker's computer example
Message:
I think the problem you had with your friend is not really an identical case - it would have been, if your friend HAD bought himself a new keyboard - you had seen that and threatened him to take away your whole free computer if he wasn't willing to use the malfunctioning keyboard again.
I do agree that there is no way to demand a free gaming account as well as there is no way your friend could have demanded the given computer - but everyone should be allowed to state his/her own thoughts about annoying regulations ...
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starcairs
10/02/2007
15:27:03
[ report abuse ] | plenty of competition
Message:
Don't like the site? Google "chess online". Let mike look after his interests... and do the same for yourself!
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heinzkat
10/02/2007
15:53:08
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
Although you can bring up the argument "if you don't like the advertisements, pay or leave", I think hubertfarnsworth just ventilates his true concern here. Nothing against that. He still enjoys the site enough to 'complain' about it in the forums :) (to make it a better place in the end).
Although some of these advertisements are a bit unlikeable, they don't install any malicious software on your computer. The only thing they might do, is storing 'cookies' on your computer. These are easily deleted, and harmful!? I don't believe they're that harmful. These ads on GK don't install any viruses or malicious software on your computer, as far as I know.
I remember that there once was an annoying ad (for anti-adware, I believe!!) which popped up a dialogue window (such a java-script code that overrules a normal browser window), asking if it was OK to go to their site. Of course, every now and then you would click on it and a lot of rubbish would be stored on your computer.
Nobody got killed though. Although these ads don't look good in the eye, they aren't very harmful.
So far my thoughts.
heinzkat.
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feelixkoolatchee
10/02/2007
19:59:19
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
Of course these ads are killing anyone. Whether they're harmful or not, I think is certainly worth debate. You are absolutely correct that the people here love the quality of the site enough to try to have a dialouge about how information on its users is collected.
The opposition is to third party websites attempting to run scripts on your computer and mine, and take information including your IP address, information about your internet service provider, your web surfing habits, your geographic location, etc. to use by companies to market further adverts to you. That may be fine for some users (not sure why), but it's not for thousands and thousands of conscientious, security-minded internet users.
I just clicked on "My Games" right now, and had two java scripts attempt to run on my computer. One was from fastclick.net and the other from burstnet.com.
If you're not familiar with either of those, I recommend you do a google search on each (simply type the domain name in a search) and read some of the results that are returned. I think it will surprise some of the users here who have stated they have no issues with the adverstising practices here.
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gameknot_com
10/02/2007
22:45:26
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
First of all, let me clarify that the ads is not something that we like to force on people -- but it is something that is simply necessary for GameKnot to exist in its present form. In other words, we wouldn't be able to offer free accounts to anyone if it wasn't for the advertisers. Plain and simple -- the money have to come from someplace to pay for the servers, for the bandwidth, for the programmers to add new features and improvements, for the customer support, etc. etc.. And in case of the free accounts on GameKnot -- it's the advertisers that provide the money to pay for all the resources (hardware, software, human, etc.) that make your free account work. If you don't allow ads to be shown, there's nobody else left to pay for your account, but yourself. As simple as that. I'm sorry, but that's the way things are in the world -- servers and bandwidth don't grow on trees, and you have to pay someone to add new cool features to websites, or fix things when they break.
Why all over sudden we started making sure that the ads are not disabled for any of the accounts? Part of it is that the banner advertising doesn't really work very well on websites like GameKnot, where each visitor accesses a lot of pages every day. It best works when the visitor loads more than just a few pages, but not a whole lot, every visit. It used to be the other way around, but it's been getting worse for GameKnot every year. So we really need for everyone to have their ads not disabled, or the free accounts will be gone from GameKnot in a year or two, the way things are progressing right now. Also, another problem is that the ad-blocking software is so widespread nowadays, it's getting to be a real problem for ad-supported websites and I'm certain you'll see a lot more of them making sure that the visitors allow the ads to be shown, or denying access otherwise.
I appreciate the advice of finding "better" advertisers than the ones we are using on GameKnot right now. The truth is -- we use the 5 largest and most reputable ad networks out there, and I'd love to hear where we can sign up for even better ones. We've evaluated and sometimes tried a lot more than the current 5, but I assure you, there are no better ad networks available for the websites our size. Two of the ad networks we use are publicly traded on NASDAQ, and all but one of them have been around since even before GameKnot went online 7 years ago. I'm sure if any of them were doing something even remotely shady, someone already would've sued them and won.
As much as I'd like to address the whole "ads are hurting my computer" argument, I don't think I'll be able to convince anyone who believes it no matter what I say. Let me just state the following for the records, and you can make your own conclusions. As a software engineer and a web developer I can assure you that ads do not and cannot "hurt" your computer. Cookies and javascript are harmless and cannot possibly in any way "infect" your computer, nor delete your files, nor "overload" your computer, nor steal any information from your computer, etc. etc.. Unless there's a bug in the web browser, the cookies and javascript simply cannot do any of those things, just like bricks cannot float in water. And if there's a bug in the web browser, then you might as well not plug your computer into the network at all, because someone might find a way to exploit that bug remotely without you even loading a single web page. Things that can very much "hurt" your computer, on the other hand -- opening attachments in e-mails, downloading and running executable files from the Internet from untrusted websites, not updating your software with the latest versions, not updating your operating system (security patches, etc.), not having a software or hardware firewall, etc. etc.. Ads are not one of those things! In the over 15 years that I've been working with the Internet, I have never had my anti-virus as much as getting triggered on a website ever. I'm sure there are websites out there that will try to infect your computer with something, but gosh darn it, those are not the websites that have been around for 7 years and that offer free chess in hopes that you might subscribe to a premium membership at some point after several years of using it for free.
As for the privacy concerns -- disabling ads does nothing to improve your privacy. Your IP address, etc. is still available for anyone and everyone to see as soon as you connect to the Internet. Also, I'm still yet to find out how knowing a pretty much arbitrary number that also changes pretty much every time you connect is hurting your privacy? Yes, you can get which ISP you are using and even which part of the country you are connected from in some cases, but it is still cannot be connected to you personally in any way. It's like seeing a car with its license plate -- you can even recognize the model of the car, but that's about it -- you still don't really know who is driving the car. Unless you have access to DMV database (or ISP records in case of Internet), there's no way to link the car to the person. Or do you camouflage your car and paint over your license plate as well, just in case? Sorry I missed the tinfoil hat on your head there, that explains everything. :)
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gameknot_com
10/02/2007
22:56:21
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
Oh, yeah, and if you do ever see an extremely annoying flashing etc. ad on GameKnot, please drop us a line via "contact us" link at the bottom of the page on which you saw it with the description of the ad and possibly the link where it leads, so that we can take care of it. We do prefer to only have quality ads displayed on GameKnot, but an occasional unwanted ad can slip through sometimes, considering that on some days we have close to a hundred new ads added to the rotation.
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hubertfarnsworth
10/03/2007
02:56:45
[ report abuse ] | thunker, ritschmanhard
Message:
Hi,
of course you were right about telling your friend to stop moaning.
Though as ritschmanhard points out, you didn't tell him to stop or otherwise return the computer.
GK is doing exactly that.
Pity about your bad experiences with the free BBS also. But here as well it's not possible to draw parallels to GK.
Cos as I pointed out above, all free playing people here are potential paying customers. I myself have recently considered paying, as I generally like the site very much. The handling of this advertising thing made me postpone the decision.
I am also not at all moaning about too few simultaneous games or any other functional restriction of the free account, like the people on your BBS did. What I do is to write down what I think about the advertisement policy. And I do it because I care.
Cheers
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feelixkoolatchee
10/03/2007
03:04:59
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
GameKnot,
Thanks for your response. Again, I completely understand where you're coming from, but the method you've chosen to take (asking users to change the way they administer security on their own computers) is one I've never seen before.
You mentioned how widespread ad-blocking software is. Why do you suppose that is? As an internet user and an IT professional, I can assure you it is because pop-up and banner ads with tracking cookies are a nuisance to users, which I'm sure is partially to blame for the ineffectiveness of the ads that you described. Why do you think most every browser, including the two most widely used, now have pop-up blockers installed as a default feature? I'd be quite surprised if you yourself didn't use them.
Also, no one in this thread stated that the ads in question on your site will "infect" your computer, nor delete your files, nor "overload" your computer, nor steal any information from your computer" as you stated. No one.
The issue was and is that you asking users to disable ad-blocking software on a computer that's not yours, and that decision should lie in the hands of the user. And I'd argue that websites whose sole purpose is to record where I'm located and which websites I visit is an affront to my web privacy and I know the majority of people would agree with me.
This type of advertising has quite a negative stigma and the backlash against it by internet users and the efforts taken by security software developers to thwart it, is not going to stop. I'd recommend taking a different approach with your users that understands their needs and desires to keep their computers secure while still offering the great (free or paid) benefits to this site. Read through the posts in this thread. Even the users who completely support your method freely admit that they ignore the ads altogether.
This is a really great site and I'd definitely miss playing here, but this is a means that will surely lose you business in the long run and will find the dollars that may have been spent on memberships here, be spent at ChessWorld or ChessManiac or some other place instead.
I hope you'll take a different path.
Thanks for listening.
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hubertfarnsworth
10/03/2007
03:07:59
[ report abuse ] | gameknot_com
Message:
Hi Mike, thanks for your reply. I am planning to write a detailed reply to your message, but now it's late evening here, and I have to sleep. See you tomorrow.
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chuckventimiglia
10/03/2007
05:47:09
[ report abuse ] | Why doesn't someone tell Mike how...
Message:
he can generate money for the site without having advertizing?
I am sure if someone can do that maybe he will do away with all
the ads and go to your system.
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ganstaman
10/03/2007
09:48:35
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
feelixkoolatchee : "Also, no one in this thread stated that the ads in question on your site will 'infect' your computer, nor delete your files, nor 'overload' your computer, nor steal any information from your computer' as you stated. No one."
Well then maybe I don't know what a security risk is. From the very first post:
hubertfarnsworth : "Allowing pages from random advertisers is an unacceptable security risk. Read relevant articles if you want to know why. No way I'll take that risk."
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zhnkiu
10/03/2007
19:54:23
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
i've looked at what google shows for 'pop up ads security risk?', and it isn't clear whether the pop up ads that gameknot allows imply adware or spyware.
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thunker
10/03/2007
21:18:08
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
I'm sure not advocating any censorship of people's comments or ideas, but the comparison that my gifting of a computer and the free membership of GK is similar is just not accurate. My computer gifting was comprised of physical hardware. When one uses GK, there's no GK hardware involved - it's an agreement to use Mike's software as he chooses to make it available. It's free and one can make his own decision as to whether one decides to abide by the owner's (GK's) rules or not.
Regarding suggestions/improvement, On GK, the user is free to make suggestions and/or complain all he wants, but the final decision will be dictated by the owner - with the result usually being what is most profitable for him/them. I've not been here from the beginning, but long enough to see that GK does monitor and listen to our comments. And make changes when warranted!
Also the analogy of my BBS experience *does* apply to some degree here I believe - as even though the users just dialed in for free, If I needed to say "sorry - need to use the computer now, please call back later" - they'd get really angry and vent a lot. If my users would have been paying me however, I'd have been much more responsive in providing them more computer time/resources!
Best wishes...
thunker
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hubertfarnsworth
10/04/2007
05:04:56
[ report abuse ] | The long answer, as promised
Message:
Hi Mike,
Thank you again for your message -- and also for the great chess system. I really enjoy it. Please see these lines as "constructive criticism". I wouldn't take the time to write this if I wouldn't care about this site ...
Text in triple quotes are from the post above.
""" First of all, let me clarify that the ads is not something that we like to force on people -- but it is something that is simply necessary for GameKnot to exist in its present form. In other words, we wouldn't be able to offer free accounts to anyone if it wasn't for the advertisers. """
Well I'd say that you're doing it for the money. Which, in itself, is perfect. Just please say it ... I'd guess that you could without, but everyone has the right to market their ideas, and I admire people who are successful with their ideas.
""" Plain and simple -- the money have to come from someplace to pay for the servers, for the bandwidth, for the programmers to add new features and improvements, for the customer support, etc. etc.. [ ... ] If you don't allow ads to be shown, there's nobody else left to pay for your account, but yourself. [ ... ] servers and bandwidth don't grow on trees, [ ... ] """
Hmmm earlier I mentioned Kingchess. Their user interface is, admittedly, not as fancy as the one here. Being Germans, their English is not perfect either.
However, they don't have any ads on their website at all. One can have a free account for as long as one wants, just like here.
I'm pretty curious why they manage without ads and you don't. And before anyone gets this wrong -- I'm really just curious, I'm not saying ads should not exist here.
""" Why all over sudden we started making sure that the ads are not disabled for any of the accounts? Part of it is that the banner advertising doesn't really work very well on websites like GameKnot, [ ... ] So we really need for everyone to have their ads not disabled, or the free accounts will be gone from GameKnot in a year or two, the way things are progressing right now. """
You are absolutely the first one to forcibly impose that users see the ads. All the news sites, all the price comparison sites, lots of forums, Google themselves, you name it -- they all use ads, and I block them (please read on before complaining about this). These people also generate part of their income through the ads. They also offer their content for free. They also employ programmers to write their web software. They have access to the same technology as you. Though you are really the first one to tell users to either see the ads or bugger off. And, as stated before, for quality services I am happy to pay -- but I do look at where my money goes.
You have, of course, a means of forcing your way -- people enjoy your site, there's a great community, and nobody would really enjoy to leave.
""" Also, another problem is that the ad-blocking software is so widespread nowadays, it's getting to be a real problem for ad-supported websites and I'm certain you'll see a lot more of them making sure that the visitors allow the ads to be shown, or denying access otherwise. """
The other problem with web advertisements has been mentioned before. There was a time when they were really extremely annoying. Around the same time, Mozilla released the first versions of their open source browser (now called Firefox), which in addition featured the plugin architecture. Other browser providers ensued. Ad blocking became easy. Advertisements were still annoying, but nobody cared any more. That's what the (Internet) world looks like today, and you sound like you didn't really want to hear that ...
Another reality is that things come and go, people are born and pass away, whole civilisations rise and fall. There are alternatives in almost every market. And people will always prefer likable and friendly people, companies, and chess sites.
""" I appreciate the advice of finding "better" advertisers than the ones we are using on GameKnot right now. """
You might want to -- I couldn't help but notice this Google ad on gameknot today: -> m22s21.vlinux.de :-)
""" The truth is -- we use the 5 largest and most reputable ad networks out there, [ ... ] Two of the ad networks we use are publicly traded on NASDAQ, [ ... ] I'm sure if any of them were doing something even remotely shady, someone already would've sued them and won. """
Here you seem to ignore the fact that stock indices are not indicators of companies' ethical behaviour. Rather on the contrary. Microsoft, for example, would not be where they are today without rude behaviour in the market. Similar things can be said about the big oil companies, and a lot of others.
Also the law is usually on the side of those who have the more expensive lawyers ... and indeed, if one takes a good look, some web ad companies (or their clients) have at times employed techniques to break ad blocking software. That is quite shady in anyone's view, but usually not worth going to court over.
""" As a software engineer and a web developer I can assure you that ads do not and cannot "hurt" your computer. """
Me too, I'm a software engineer, and ...
""" Cookies and javascript are harmless and cannot possibly in any way "infect" your computer, nor delete your files, nor "overload" your computer, nor steal any information from your computer, etc. etc.. """
Here you're definitely not right.
- I have in the past had some fun crashing (only my own) browsers and email clients with JavaScript. That has become a bit harder with current software, and I haven't been doing it for a while, but I'm sure it's still possible. That's already a DoS (denial of service).
- Security flaws have several times allowed malicious JavaScript to read files from the hard disk and send them elsewhere. JS interpreters are not immune to bugs.
- XSS is notorious for the privacy breaches being made possible through it.
- Especially the advertisement companies are notorious for the way they track their users. The usual technique is to give a user an ID and make her browser store that as a long lasting cookie. Afterwards, every time the user goes on a site with an ad, the advertising company gets:
- the user ID.
- the IP address, which is usually related to a certain geographic region.
- the user's preferred languages.
- the HTTP referrer, pointing to the web site into which the ad is embedded.
- the date and time.
This data, collected from millions of people, many times a day, is far enough to
- allow statistical research
- or sometimes even to even identify an individual person.
- Also please read about flash cookies in case you're interested.
You might also want to read why the EFF (or was it someone else?) wants to convince Google to give their cookies an expiration date earlier than the end of the Unix epoch.
""" Unless there's a bug in the web browser, the cookies and javascript simply cannot do any of those things, just like bricks cannot float in water. """
See above and below.
""" And if there's a bug in the web browser, then you might as well not plug your computer into the network at all, because someone might find a way to exploit that bug remotely without you even loading a single web page. """
To be honest, this sentence causes a slight turmoil in my understanding of the OSI model and web applications ... can you explain this in detail please?
""" Things that can very much "hurt" your computer, [ ...] Ads are not one of those things! """
The privacy problems detailed above are not something I want to deal with. Neither do I want companies to make money from information about me.
""" As for the privacy concerns -- disabling ads does nothing to improve your privacy. """
See above. The market research that the ad companies do is big business. People have been identified through search engine cookies (which work the same way as ad company cookies).
Of course I can allow showing the ads but not the cookies. That takes a bit of technical knowledge though, which should not be required in order to use a computer in privacy.
""" Your IP address, etc. is still available for anyone and everyone to see as soon as you connect to the Internet. Also, I'm still yet to find out how knowing a pretty much arbitrary number that also changes pretty much every time you connect is hurting your privacy? Yes, you can get which ISP you are using and even which part of the country you are connected from in some cases, but it is still cannot be connected to you personally in any way. [ ... ] """
The IP address alone is usually not all that interesting -- although it already gives a clue about the geographic location of a user. Together with the user's unique ID and other data, this data is pretty interesting. It can tell about a specific person ...
- what dog races she reads about
- what diseases she reads about
- that she likes playing chess online
- what maps she looks at
- what goods she is interested in
- what books she reads
- possibly what organisation she works at
- at what times she is using the web
That, in combination, is pretty personal, I'd say.
""" It's like seeing a car with its license plate -- you can even recognize the model of the car, but that's about it -- you still don't really know who is driving the car. Unless you have access to DMV database (or ISP records in case of Internet), there's no way to link the car to the person. Or do you camouflage your car and paint over your license plate as well, just in case? Sorry I missed the tinfoil hat on your head there, that explains everything. :) """
Well what I read is nobody's business except my own. That's why software like Tor ( -> tor.eff.org ) exists. And that's not a tinfoil hat. (And its purpose can be defeated by carelessly allowing cookies from advertisements.)
Between us geeks:
Your server, on request, sends my computer a stream of characters. My computer can do with that whatever it wants -- after all I am choosing the software that's running on it. I can print the characters and use that as a wallpaper; I can try to make a random number generator with it. Or I can use a common web browser to produce a graphical rendering from it. What that looks like is entirely my own choice -- so I use Firefox to display the important parts, and leave the less important ones off. I can, with some development time, even compile requests that tell your server that my computer sees the advertisements, though my eyes still won't see them.
It is, of course, your choice what your server sends. I hope there won't be any scary messages in that any more.
SCNR -- contrary to the original message from gameknot, it is not necessary to allow all advertisements. A friend of mine allows inline ads but not popup ads, and he did not get the message. I am still wondering what exactly you are testing. In fact you are telling me that in the scripts that your server sends me ...
Have a nice time, and thank you again for the nice chess site.
Cheers
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ulnevages
10/04/2007
05:04:59
[ report abuse ] | Advertising
Message:
The immediate impulse is to respond as others have and simply say, if you don't like advertising stop using the service. However, there is a difference between that appearing on your 'page' and the more intrusive which is directed to the desktop. To appear pedantic, that appearing there from 'tribal' remains when the player leaves the gameknot site and the service, therefore, is not being used. It is not unreasonable to object to this form of, perhaps, (as gk on balance assess) necessary trespass.
You will find over time, that just as people living near railways lines never hear the train passing, you will not notice the ads. Take comfort from the knowledge that the advertisers' message and their investment is wasted on you.
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hubertfarnsworth
10/12/2007
20:04:37
[ report abuse ] | Novelties!
Message:
Sound in a flash advertisement! That's what I'm getting today. It's that smilie ad ...
Don't worry, nobody will ever be keen to enter their credit card details on a site selling smilies ... of all things in the world ...
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