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steverand67
10/11/2007
21:06:22
[ report abuse ] |
 Subject: Comments on Annotations
Message:
Comments on annotated games are a great way way to further analyze annotations, and a very useful tool for improving one's game. Recently though, some people have been using the comments feature to insult one of the players or the annotator. One of the reasons why GK is such a great site is the friendly atmosphere and lack of typical internet trash-talk. GK moderates the forums to protect that friendly atmosphere. Perhaps its time that moderation spread to other parts of the site? I'm curious as to what everybody thinks.
Here's the biggest reason for this posting: -> gameknot.com
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ganstaman
10/11/2007
21:30:11
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Message:
I can think of two possible solutions, maybe both of which should be considered together:
1) Just as you can't post in the forum until some magical time, you can't comment on annotations until some magical time or number of games finished. At the very least, you should be required to have started a game.
2) Allow the annotator full moderator privileges.
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rt4sm
10/12/2007
00:08:21
[ report abuse ] | Ganstaman...
Message:
I agree with your first point, but not the second, because people would then use it to simply delete comments they don't like. Although insults shouldn't be tolerated, reasomable criticism or opinions should be allowed, otherwise there's not a great deal of point in people being able to comment on annotated games.
Like steve, when adding comments i've seem some over the top remarks, like 'well after that move i realized the game was no longer worth annotating, i'm so hard, your not worthy of a great player like me.' I just insult those idiots back. As long as they don't use any foul language though, it's difficult to see how GK can control the situation
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rt4sm
10/12/2007
00:08:23
[ report abuse ] | Ganstaman...
Message:
I agree with your first point, but not the second, because people would then use it to simply delete comments they don't like. Although insults shouldn't be tolerated, reasomable criticism or opinions should be allowed, otherwise there's not a great deal of point in people being able to comment on annotated games.
Like steve, when adding comments i've seem some over the top remarks, like 'well after that move i realized the game was no longer worth annotating, i'm so hard, your not worthy of a great player like me.' I just insult those idiots back. As long as they don't use any foul language though, it's difficult to see how GK can control the situation
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levellerlevvie
10/12/2007
04:46:45
[ report abuse ] | How about the report abuse link
Message:
Like in a forum message, GK could introduce a report abuse link for a comment on a annotation ... That way the annotator or someone else (GK should decide about privileges) could draw the attention of GK to the abuse of language, insults and other stuff ...
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ionadowman
10/12/2007
05:47:13
[ report abuse ] | Having looked at the game in question...
Message:
... I gather some of the offending remarks have since been edited out. I didn't find what was there all that objectionable, at any rate. Since I was there, I stopped off to add a few comments of my own...
In general, though, players and annotators and indeed kibitzers ought to be given due respect (though a little humour wouldn't go amiss). In this as in some other games the annotator has occasional trouble expressing his views clearly. A certain amount of (tactful) correction/explanation might be called for, rather than the enigmatical "What?"
Cheers,
Ion
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steverand67
10/12/2007
06:26:23
[ report abuse ] | ionadowman
Message:
You're correct in assuming that the nastier comments have been edited out... I assume the user responsible for the comments decided to delete them in case of punishment from the powers that be, or maybe he/she was just in a bad mood when he/she put the comments there, and has since cheered up a bit. You'll have to take my word for it that the now-deleted comments were an abuse of the comments feature...I think I recall the words "idiot," "laughable attempt an an annotation," and "horrible annotation."
Anyways, the above ideas all sound reasonable and worth a try.
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tag1153
10/12/2007
07:40:47
[ report abuse ] | Beat me to the punch....
Message:
I noticed some of this last night, and was going to say something today. I totally agree that something needs to be done to keep the comments on annotated games more civil. I would even go as far as saying that no member be allowed to comment on any game unless they have put one up themselves. This business of players with ZERO games completed and ZERO games annotated ripping apart the works of others is shameful. I saw the game in question before it was edited. There seems to be a few members out there just begging to be called out. I suggest that these members post some annotations themselves. I, for one, would be happy to give them a taste of their own medicine. I'm fairly confident that others would as well.
tag1153
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ganstaman
10/12/2007
08:19:02
[ report abuse ] | tag1153
Message:
"This business of players with ZERO games completed and ZERO games annotated ripping apart the works of others is shameful."
You forgot to mention ZERO games started. It's as if they signed up for a gameknot account just to comment on the annotations. I bet they play blitz a lot, too.
On that note, does it amaze anyone else how many people seem to sign up at a CC site to play nothing but an under-construction-version of blitz?
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ionadowman
10/12/2007
14:04:41
[ report abuse ] | "Blitz specialists"...
Message:
... is my term for these. Actually, not a few of them are pretty decent sort of players (in terms of playing strength, I mean). There's one I've noticed - don't recall the name - rating precisely 1200, who might have played just one "long" game, whose comments I've found to be pretty reasonable, on the whole. For that reason I'm inclined to take a more positive view of anyone being allowed to comment.
After all, this particular dude has obviously expanded his interests on GK!
But name-calling, and abusing an annotator's efforts ought to be stomped on. On the whole GK deserves praise for the annotated games feature, and it's great that lots of people are prepared to have a go at annotating their games. There's a certain "brag factor" in annotating games that ought to be encouraged, I reckon ;-)
Possibly quite a few are hoping to encourage stronger players to add their comments, which can often turn a so-so game into something really interesting, but also such comments can be instructive.
One recommendation I would make, though. If you don't have anything much to say for a lengthy set of moves, break up the block with "skeleton" annotations. This might take the form of a punctuation (!?) say, or even an invitation for others to comment ("Comments?").
Cheers,
Ion
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heinzkat
10/18/2007
03:16:18
[ report abuse ] | Off-topic
Message:
But on-topic as well:
-> gameknot.com
Is this new? Can't find a link to it on GameKnot.
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tag1153
10/18/2007
10:09:28
[ report abuse ] | hey heinzkat.......
Message:
.....how did you run across this if you can't find a link? I wonder if a new link is forthcoming?
tag1153
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ionadowman
10/19/2007
14:46:09
[ report abuse ] | Fantastic game...
Message:
... and a model of what annotations can be!
Something for we lesser lights to aspire to! I noticed the occasional hash sign (#) which I think might have been used for a "skeleton annotation" (during the preparation for posting, say). I have suggested the use of skeleton comments or annotations before to break up a long series of moves that you have nothing substantive to say about, and I rather like the use of the hash sign for this purpose.
Cheers,
Ion
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ionadowman
10/20/2007
03:01:21
[ report abuse ] | In connexion with this thread...
Message:
... there is a series of games annotated by one sharpintoxicant that might be worth looking into. The funny finishes are one thing, but are the off-colour joke names suitable for a family show?
I note this dude is one of them there Blitz Specialists. I would rather think well of them, but this kind of thing don't help.
Thoughts?
Ion
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heinzkat
11/02/2007
17:08:49
[ report abuse ] | Again off topic
Message:
ááánd on topic. Did anyone else notice that GK fixed the check signs (+!) in the annotated comments?
:-)
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ionadowman
11/02/2007
23:04:54
[ report abuse ] | Actually I had noticed...
Message:
... some time back, but I had so thoroughly formed the habit of writing "ch" for check that I haven't bothered to change back!
Aye, well...
Ion
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heinzkat
12/07/2007
00:32:40
[ report abuse ] | This one is a beauty ...
Message:
 gameknot.com
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tag1153
12/07/2007
06:47:20
[ report abuse ] | that's horrible....
Message:
.....I like to get a little creative with the storytelling myself, but with humor not insults.....I'll never understand some people.......
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ccmcacollister
12/07/2007
08:19:42
[ report abuse ] | I hope
Message:
that no one objects. I felt compelled to add some comment to the game you posted, heinzkat. It was indeed "exceptional" annotating, wasn't it ... -big sigh-
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heinzkat
12/07/2007
08:39:12
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
it's just being plain rude. Very rude ...
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jstevens1
12/09/2007
15:04:16
[ report abuse ] | Criticize the move not the person!
Message:
If somebody on gameknot makes a blunder, i.e. your opponent, it is very unwise to make derogatory comments about your opponent - they could at best make you look silly (has the annotator never made a blunder by the way - he who has not sinned cast the first stone comes to my mind), next up end up on somebody's ignore list or at worst lead to expulsion from gameknot. Instead you should just say something to the tune of (example off the top of my head here) - 12. Be5?? - develops a piece but overlooks a knight fork. This is very constructive because it first explains why my opponent made a seemingly plausible move which turned out to be an oversight. Thus the move itself is given two question marks - meaning that it is a terrible move because it loses the game (unless the other player then makes a losing error). I must admit to being very annoyed with myself for allowing a combination which cost me the exchange in Knights and Oversights Part I against rt4sm (Rob) and I found it very cathartic to annotate it because I have found that quite a lot of oversights have involved knights. At least if you have made a bad oversight you can look at my comments/game and think "Oh well, at least I am not the only one!"
Incidentally, the reason why I annotate my Expert Games is because I see them as big games, testing myself out against the best on gameknot and hoping to at the very least make them work for their victories. I have always tried to explain why I make the moves that I do and then if and when I have gone wrong, an Expert has usually made a comment as to why I have gone wrong. This is useful for the intermediate/beginner player because he can then say to himself. I won't do this if I come across this situation or something similar.
All I hope is that one day I will have something better to report than The Blob against an Expert. If I do draw or better against an Expert it will be a big result, believe you me!!
I hope you all have had a nice weekend.
Cheers and bye for now.
Joanne
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