| From | Message |
gameknot_com
10/26/2007
23:06:18
[ report abuse ] |
 Subject: Chess puzzles
Message:
We are working on a new, and hopefully improved, way to create chess puzzles on GameKnot. It automatically verifies the solution both when the author enters the puzzle and when other players try to find the solution later on. Please give it a try and let us know what you think: -> gameknot.com
And of course if you notice any problems, please don't hesitate to let us know as well! Thank you!!
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gameknot_com
10/26/2007
23:11:11
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
Also, just to clarify, this feature is in its testing phase, so there's no link to it anywhere else on GameKnot just yet. We just thought it would be a good idea to do a limited public test before it finally goes live in a couple of days. Also, you guys might appreciate the chance to be one of the first to enter your favorite chess puzzle and make GameKnot history. :)
Thank you again for reporting any problems or issues with it!
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8ballphoenix
10/27/2007
00:53:59
[ report abuse ] | Nice!
Message:
It's been said plenty of times recently and I'll say it again. This site just keeps getting better!
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heinzkat
10/27/2007
03:59:35
[ report abuse ] | It looks nice
Message:
And the problem took me about a minute. In the end it wasn't that difficult :-) Buttehm, my first issue, the promotion keeps the pawn on the board. And in many problems the piece that it promotes to is important!
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heinzkat
10/27/2007
04:31:35
[ report abuse ] | Is it possible
Message:
to make a puzzles in which Black is the one to mate? I couldn't find the option ...
Is it possible to make problems in which the result is a theoretical draw (since an infinite amount of variations would have to be put in!? I just tried to mate with Queen and King, wow that took a while to put all variations in)
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heinzkat
10/27/2007
04:33:41
[ report abuse ] | Question answered!
Message:
'Is it possible to make a puzzles in which Black is the one to mate? I couldn't find the option ... '
Use the Flip board option - which not only flips the board, but makes Black the one to move first. Maybe handy to automatically do this when a fen is put in with Black to move?
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8ballphoenix
10/27/2007
05:20:48
[ report abuse ] | Promotion
Message:
Strange. When I tried it the pawn promoted to a queen.
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heinzkat
10/27/2007
05:35:40
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
they just fixed that - or not? - but a promotion to Knight should be considered as well - since Qg2# then wins instead of Ng3#. And ... when replaying (after solving the problem) there really stands a pawn on f1!!
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8ballphoenix
10/27/2007
06:06:34
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
Yes I saw the knight option too. I'm assuming that wasn't programmed as a possible reply - I did try several times to see if it gave a knight instead of a queen but no luck :( As for the pawn - I guess that's why we're being asked to play-test it!
Whilst there I did excersize the old grey matter on your puzzles too though :)
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heinzkat
10/27/2007
06:10:45
[ report abuse ] | I would recommend
Message:
everyone to put in their puzzles too - at least, try the applet!! It's great - including the little bugs every now and then. It's really fun to play around with - I can really recommend it :)
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wulebgr
10/27/2007
08:30:59
[ report abuse ] | endgame positions
Message:
I tried inputting an endgame study, but gave up after entering endless variations on the same checkmate--the same position reached countless ways must be entered each time.
It's a great feature for checkmate problems.
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heinzkat
10/27/2007
15:06:39
[ report abuse ] | wulebgr
Message:
For such problems you still could use the old application:
-> gameknot.com
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steverand67
10/28/2007
12:12:36
[ report abuse ] | great
Message:
IMO much better than the old feature. Very useful learning tool.
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gameknot_com
10/30/2007
14:10:02
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
Thank you everyone for sending us your feedback and comments, very much appreciated. Special thanks to heinzkat for giving us so many detailed "bug" reports. Unfortunately because of the uncovered issues several puzzles had to be deleted (the move notations were recorded incorrectly when it was black to move first). The good news -- all of the problems have been fixed and there shouldn't be any more left. Keeping fingers crossed, of course. :)
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chessnovice
10/30/2007
17:29:40
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
I give major credit to heinzkat for really going out of his way to help GK with scouring for bugs in this new feature. I appreciate both your efforts and GK's.
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heinzkat
10/31/2007
06:13:57
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
I just tried to put in some problems and naturally stumbled upon a few (funny) errors when trying to use the 'solve' application.
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steverand67
10/31/2007
17:35:57
[ report abuse ] | One improvement...
Message:
...would be the feature already on the old one that allows users to eliminated puzzles that have already been rated by that user. That would allow people to avoid already completed puzzles and see only unsolved ones if they so desired.
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throneseeker
11/01/2007
15:25:57
[ report abuse ] | Puzzle Creation
Message:
This is really nice, especially since one can return and edit a puzzle to address "cook" issues. On the really complex positions, this feature can take an extraordinary amount of time before arriving at an issue that needs to be addressed. Interestingly enough, the play along the way sometimes gives new ideas to try in other puzzles. I see the rating stars but wonder who votes on these and how realistic the vote might be?
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heinzkat
11/02/2007
05:15:48
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
@ throneseeker
"I see the rating stars but wonder who votes on these and how realistic the vote might be?"
I have rated all problems so far. The rating indications are a bit strange; "poor" - "fair" - "good" - "excellent" - "the best" - while the difficulty is being 'judged'. I rate the ones that you see on your first attempt within say 10 seconds, one star. Because they are relatively easy. The ones that take a while and take several attempts are more difficult - so I would give them more 'difficulty stars'.
@ steverand67: seeing that GK has implemented a few new little things in the section, I expect such a thing to be added in the near future. Just like sorting on difficulty and amount of moves, or something like that.
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heinzkat
11/02/2007
16:51:07
[ report abuse ] | I told you...
Message:
new updates were to follow!!
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suzyfromflorida
11/02/2007
20:04:24
[ report abuse ] | I LOVE IT!!
Message:
Wow! What a great feature and a great way to better my chess skills! Thanks so much for this superior way to solve chess puzzles.
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wulebgr
11/03/2007
05:34:43
[ report abuse ] | puzzle ratings
Message:
I've rated most of those that I've solved. I, too, find the rating indications strange. An easy puzzle is not necessarily a poor one, nor are tortuously difficult ones always excellent.
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heinzkat
11/03/2007
10:26:14
[ report abuse ] | wulebgr
Message:
Exactly what I was thinking. I rate them according their difficulty; not for their 'beauty'.
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heinzkat
11/03/2007
13:28:48
[ report abuse ] | Oh ...
Message:
Immediately after I posted I noticed it has been changed already to "very easy" ... "very hard" :)
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zoltantor
11/12/2007
13:29:49
[ report abuse ] | Another bug
Message:
White mates in 3
but the key move isn't allowed.... (short castling)
Study credits goes to Sam Lloyd
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zoltantor
11/12/2007
13:43:56
[ report abuse ] | Another improvement
Message:
can be a "database" of positions.
It was very deceiving to me posting my fist puzzle and walking around the old section one by one to find that it was published, almost, 3 times before by 3 different people... :(((((
I consider this a waste of time and I feel myself quite lame after posting the puzzle.
It can be avoided if, when setting the position, the system tells me: "position already in database (having the number, too, will be more great)".
How? using the fen, maybe?
So, now If I want to include another puzzle I must check all, one by one again, to be sure it wasn't published before...
In other facts. entering all the replies to all the possible moves must be fixed too.
If a mate must be reached on X, all the moves allowing X-Y must be discarded.
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heinzkat
11/12/2007
13:51:32
[ report abuse ] | Zoltantor;
Message:
Your first puzzle hadn't been posted in the new puzzles section before. So I would say that it is good you published it there. I already noticed somebody posted an exact copy of a problem I had posted, but does that really matter? It just means the problem is more popular/known and it can be displayed a few more times in the 'puzzle pool'.
I don't think I get your last point, the reason why GameKnot has done it like this, is that after you have solved the puzzle, you can scroll through all sidelines and see how it would be (a quicker) mate if the opponent would have made a different move.
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heinzkat
11/15/2007
11:06:41
[ report abuse ] | I get ...
Message:
quite a lot of 'complaints' about this puzzle: (which is the daily puzzle today, so a lot of people try it)
White to move and mate in three.
The problem is that after
1. Rxh8+ Kxh8
2. Rb8! (I wonder how many of 600+ people who rated the puzzle have found this move on their own... without using the hint.)
... the puzzle system chooses a random move, since all moves lead to checkmate on move three, so most will use the hint, see they should move 2. Rb8, make the move to find out Black's reply is something like 2. ... Rf8!? and say 'oh this puzzle is silly, let's rate it one star, this is dumb' (while the pointe is, of course, 2. ... Rxb8 3. Kf7 mate)
Also, I wonder this might have effected the rating for the puzzle (which is only 1½ stars, very easy, according to 600+ people, although from what I read, few have really understood it. And those even contacted me to say how stupid my puzzle was!)
"The puzzle, you have presented today is not so evident, because of the wrong move of the black tower in the second move! never a chess player will move its tower like this, but will take the white Tower. Sorry, but there is something wrong. Thank you!"
"please check your puzzle..
white rook to B8is the second move
why can't black rook go to b8 and kill black rook?
The solution seems 2 b wrong."
"I did your puzzle on today's GK homepage, and I was wondering why the solution wasn't 1 Rxh8+ Kxh8 2 Kf7# ?
Have I missed something?"
"Puzzle which is in todays quest is mate in 2 not 3 so I think You've got something wrong
1.Rxh8+ Kxh8
2.Kf7+ Check mate
Puzzle number 58"
(and those are only about puzzle 58 :) )
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ionadowman
11/15/2007
13:29:56
[ report abuse ] | I can appreciate...
Message:
the problem heinzkat has. The point of the puzzle is that 2.Rb8 is a decoy sacrifice. It threatens mate at once, half-pins the rook, and invites itself to be captured. To my mind, the puzzle's main, critical, line is 2...Rxb8 3.Kf7#. It is also the most aesthetically pleasing. As such it ought to be the default line Black takes. Had this been so, I doubt anyone would be calling the puzzle "silly".
But there is another, secondary line that also ought to be looked at: 2...Rg8.3.Kf7#. Not as elegant as the main line, but an important one all the same. (White will force mate after 3.Rxg8??ch of course - 3...Kxg8 4.Bb4 Kh8 5.Kg6 Kg8 6.Nf3 Kh8 7.Nd4 Kg8 8.Nf5 Kh8 9.Ba3 Kg8 10.Nh6ch Kh8 11.Bb2#, or even quicker: 4.Ne6 Kh7 5.Be2 Kg8 6.Kg6 Kh8 7.Kf7 Kh7 8.Nf8ch Kh8 9.Bc3#, but these mates don't fulfil the terms of the puzzle, do they?)
Now, how to ensure that the main line is the one chosen by the defender? I can only suggest that, having created the solution with all its side variations, the creator plays through the critical line that the defender will take during attempts to solve the puzzle.
I can also appreciate the problem of the endgame study, which is my favourite kind of chess puzzle. But there are also puzzles of the "play and win" variety that don't lead to mate, or, if they do, there are sidelines that lead instead to ruinous losses of material for the defender. Recently I posted 3 puzzles involving a particular pawn-mate motif. I have 3 others of this type, some very nice ones, but Black can spoil the party by entering a dead lost endgame rather than being mated in elegant style.
Here's one, from a game Moldoiarkov-Sanchelov, USSR 1974:
White to play and win. I'll leave the actual moves for readers to nut out.
The critical line is a mate in 6, but at move 3 in this line Black can avert the mate by giving up his bishop. The resulting ending is completely lost for Black, as White swiftly cleans up the Q-side pawns, then resumes at leisure a direct attack on the king.
I really like the puzzle creation system used by GK, but, without compromising its good features, is it possible perhaps:
- to add in a "critical line" feature that the defender will follow in order to reveal the "point" of the puzzle;
- to introduce some flexibility whereby "x to play and win" puzzles might be included?
It occurs to me this latter might turn out to be an entirely different facility from the present "Mate in x" one. I can see the potential for several different types of puzzle - and that's even before we get to retrograde analysis, help- and sui-mates, and (dare I mention it here...?) fairy chess. :-O
Cheers,
Ion
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heinzkat
11/15/2007
13:47:48
[ report abuse ] | Ion A Dowman
Message:
As it is now, the application chooses the critical line based on the maximum amount of moves involved to checkmate. But sometimes an 'inferior' move leads to checkmate in the same amount of moves as the 'better' move. And that's where the confusion starts. I had come up with the 'critical line' already myself, let's see what Master Mike will make of this :-)
- to introduce some flexibility whereby "x to play and win" puzzles might be included?
I think the current system would not be able to track this down. Maybe an option "... and after this move it is clear that White (/Black) wins" ...
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heinzkat
11/15/2007
15:56:27
[ report abuse ] | Error
Message:
'Too many variations. Please redesign the puzzle to reduce the amount of possible variations.'
This is a cute endgame puzzle though:
White to move, mate in 5. Composed by Zepler (1937). Choose your moves very carefully, the solution is very subtle!
Send me a message containing the answer :-)
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skipwallace555
11/19/2007
15:51:54
[ report abuse ] | Great enjoyment
Message:
I think this feature is great. I am having a lot of fun with it. Congrats to all involved. Keep them coming.
Skip
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lighttotheright
11/20/2007
00:39:13
[ report abuse ] | Puzzle number 291
Message:
There is either an error in the system or the creator of this puzzle knows how to manipulate the system to show an inferior mate to be the solution. I'd like to know how this is possible.
Puzzle number 291 shows the position to be a mate in 4. I found the mate in 4, no problem, with the under-promotion and sacrifice of the promoted knight. The problem is that this position is Not a mate in 4.
There is a much simpler mate in 3 starting with Bc8. The f pawn is forced to move with each turn. The white bishop can easily mate along the long diagonal by moving around the pawn on c6. It is very simple. Yet the puzzle will not allow the move Bc8, which is the correct move. Is this an error or a manipulation to a particular desired solution?
How did the creator fool the puzzle system into solving for an inferior (although much more interesting) mate? I've rechecked the mate in 3 with a computer to make sure that I was not missing something. The mate in 3 is real. Why is the puzzle stating mate in 4?
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heinzkat
11/20/2007
01:12:45
[ report abuse ] | light to the right
Message:
The system only detects mates in one move (not on the first move - there are some puzzles now, that say 'mate in two', but that's only because the creator failed to make the mate-in-one move after which the system automatically detects checkmate on the second move, quite entertaining).
Indeed, Bc8 was the first move that came to mind and the logical solution to puzzle #291. The system has a horizon of '1 move deep' checkmate, which is logical.
See problem #463. Easy, mate in three, but not if the creator is messing up. How could the application tell?
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zoltantor
11/20/2007
08:41:15
[ report abuse ] | Puzzle #291
Message:
the starting position is (or must be) something like this... AICR
I will check my books for it, I remember the position, the underpromotion and the sac...
heinzkat I think that the system "believes" you when entering the key move
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chessnovice
11/29/2007
09:25:14
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
I tried this out today, just for kicks. I noticed that we can't really do any puzzles besides mating puzzles. I learned a lot from mating puzzles when I was beginning, but I found that the puzzles for trapping queens, trapping minor pieces, or just winning material gave me the best education.
I know this is still a developing feature, but I think it would be good to free up the puzzles beyond just mating solutions.
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heinzkat
12/08/2007
14:53:14
[ report abuse ] | About 1000 checkmate puzzles now...
Message:
And the amount is still growing...:-)
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heinzkat
2/02/2008
02:36:02
[ report abuse ] | About 2,500 puzzles now...
Message:
And you can stop complaining about incorrect/incomplete solutions, it's now possible to submit all your cooks via Options... Alternative solution.
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chessnovice
2/03/2008
04:09:28
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
I also noticed the "Reset" button is replaced with an equivalent arrow. Attention to detail...
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ravster
2/03/2008
04:20:35
[ report abuse ] | Also
Message:
We can put alternate solutions on now :)
Ravi
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