| From | Message |
chess_champion
11/20/2007
16:20:32
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 Subject: Opening Books, Databases, End Game Tablebases
Message:
from my understanding is the following true.
gameknot opening book- allowed
databases-not sure/not allowed
endgame tablebases- not allowed
also can one use other opening books aside from gameknots?
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kewms
11/20/2007
17:06:03
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Message:
opening books are allowed.
databases are allowed.
tablebases are not allowed.
 gameknot.com
gameknot.com
The rules make no distinction between GK and outside resources. The distinction between databases and tablebases is because databases simply store large collections of games. Tablebases use an engine to calculate all possible outcomes from a given position.
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chess_champion
11/21/2007
11:43:01
[ report abuse ] | thanks
Message:
some further questions i might add.
opening books and databases can be made by players playing players and engines playing engines.
i now know from what was said that opening books and databases are allowed.
therefore my question is:
can one use opening books and database where is was engine vs engine?
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juco
12/16/2007
15:03:23
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Message:
"can one use opening books and database where is was engine vs engine?" Of course! You can use whatever opening book and database, but you cannot use any tablebase. The difference is that 1) opening books and databases tell you the VARIATIONS how you might to play in the position you have, and 2) tablebases tell you EXACTLY how to play to secure a win or a draw. In both cases you get aid, but the former 1) it's your decision, and the latter 2) it's not your decision. You can also see that the question is about 1) the opening, and 2) the end game.
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kewms
12/16/2007
15:38:11
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Message:
Looking at it another way, just because an engine can hold onto the pawn in the Queen's Gambit and still win (for instance), that doesn't mean *I* can. Examining an engine's game, like examining a GM game, gives me guidance, but I still have to execute for the rest of the game, even after my opponent takes me out of the database line.
In a tablebase, on the other hand, the engine has already worked out *every* variation with the given material. If a winning line exists, it will show me *exactly* what it is. The endgame tablebase has complete knowledge, while the opening database does not.
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chess_champion
12/21/2007
10:55:56
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Message:
Thanks for the responses.
I have been on this gameknot for several years now and the only assistance I used was gameknots opening database and the analysis features as they are found on the site for a reason.
Regarding other players databases (outside of gameknot) I am open to that to a certain degree (for now I will refrain from using it for whatever reason).
Regarding engine database there are databases that contain thousands of games where you can simply follow. The difference is engine databases will be with games rated 2200-2500+. For me it is kind of unfair to use engine databases because they simply make little if any noticeable mistakes.
For example I can leave Fritz or Rybka running overnight for days on one computer and have thousands of games and simply look at those. I dont feel thats fair. Again this is my opinion.
After the various responses I believe these too are allowed (but for now I will refrain from using these).
Finally end game tablebases should not be allowed just like I knew because they give the path to the win.
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throneseeker
12/21/2007
11:31:52
[ report abuse ] | Database versus Tablebase
Message:
Could some wise being please explain to an old and ignorant fool exactly what a database is and what a table base is and what the differences are. Apparently databases are allowed and table bases are not - why? And where do these things come from?
BTW, I always thought the player made the decision, but apparently not always as I gather some folks let a machine act for them - guess they recognize that they are not as smart and would prefer a machine that told them what they can and cannot do in their life.
Regards, ThroneSeeker
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fmgaijin
12/21/2007
11:43:19
[ report abuse ] | "PRE-EXISTING" Databases Okay, But . . .
Message:
. . . not "in-progress" databases where you have Fritz or Rybka play out a bunch of games from your current positions. In other words, you can analyze just like an OTB GM and test your openings all you want BEFORE you start a particular game, but once the game starts you can't be testing THAT position using an engine (per current GK rules). Of course, while you're playing the QGD, you could have your engine working on Benoni positions, etc.
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wschmidt
12/21/2007
14:47:24
[ report abuse ] | throneseeker,
Message:
databases are compilations of games which can be accessed using a variety of methods, depending on the software one is using. You can check out the GK database by going to the site map (link is at the bottom of the page). It's very basic - it allows you to see if a particular position that you've got in your game has ever been played in a GK game before. And there's a filter that allows you to limit the games to those played by higher rated players. More sophisiticated versions from commercial software allow searches for particular attacking patterns, combinations of minor pieces in the endgame, etc.
Tablebases are computer-generated compilations of endgame positions which allow you to set up a position with a limited number of pieces and it will basically tell you what moves win, draw and lose.
chess_champion in message a couple before this one, refers to "engine databases" and talks about having Fritz or Rybka analyze overnight. I've not heard the term "database" used like that before. Those engines are typically sold with databases along the lines I just described, but when you're having an engine analyze, it's analyzing from a position that you've told it to analyze. It can be from a position in your game or a from a database game but generally the engine and the database function are separate matters.
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chess_champion
12/22/2007
19:04:51
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Message:
fmgaijin
yes that is my understanding. but from my choice will refrain from using engine only databases at least for now.
wschmidt
when i speak of engine database i mean games played from the start (or from a particular opening) only by engines until the end. then a person can later use that database played by engines to look up moves to do in a game.
another matter is when the engine is analyzing for you during a game in progress that is not allowed and unfair as everyone agrees.
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