| From | Message |
marinvukusic
2/04/2008
07:13:43
[ report abuse ] |
 Subject: Blitz games
Message:
I have noticed that there are quite a few people that play Blitz games yet they have zero games played in their profile (when people play well and/or are well mannered I tend to take a look at their profile).
I wonder why is it so?
I mean, there are other free servers for Blitz on the Internet, and the software here is limited in functionality and is kinda buggy sometimes :) In any case GK is primarily a correspondence chess server so there has to be some reason for this?
The most annoying bug is when the software does not alow castling if it was delayed (but is still legal). I sometimes tend to delay castling for a while and then can't do it at all :(
Functionality that I would love to see is "offer rematch", sometimes I find a good player but after we finish it is hard to meet again :I
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chessnovice
2/04/2008
09:10:24
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
Some people are here through association, just one person knowing another person. They may not be aware of different interfaces, or their computers may not support them properly.
One thing I know about Gameknot is that it's very load-friendly. There's nothing really superfluous that needs to be downloaded per page. Some people might just like that.
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ccmcacollister
2/04/2008
09:41:36
[ report abuse ] | also ...
Message:
Some players do not seem to know they are On GK when they play "brain blitz" , for they have asked "what's GK" when I have asked if they have seen the forums here.
Yes, rematch would probalby be the first/best addition!
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ogedei
2/10/2008
13:14:06
[ report abuse ] | Draw offer abuse...
Message:
I've only been here for a short while, but am absolutely loving GameKnot!! However, I must agree about the limitations of the blitz function.
The castling problem you mention is annoying, and so is the problem that all early versions of internet blitz interfaces seem to struggle with: draw offer abuse!! This is where a player in a clearly lost position can win on time by offering draws, forcing the player with the stronger position to click "refuse draw offer," and then, before he has a chance to actually make a move, forcing him again to decline another draw offer.
At some point, the interface must be updated to allow ignoring draw offers, whereby making a move acts as rejecting the offer.
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heinzkat
2/10/2008
13:17:33
[ report abuse ] | ogedei...
Message:
I've had some idea about this a while ago, which no single internet Blitz application seems to have; when you are offered a draw, the clock is stopped for five seconds, or adds five seconds to your clock. This should ban out all such draw offers, I think. But this is not the right place to suggest that:-) GK's Blitz hasn't been updated in years!
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marinvukusic
2/10/2008
14:12:36
[ report abuse ] | Funny
Message:
Since GK Blitz is not rated that kind of behaviour is completely nonsensical (unethical by definition but that is not my point here).
I had a few ridiculous draw offers but after I write "You are kidding me right?" they usually promptly resign. Children IMHO.
This is not even remotely close to some abuses I have witnessed on Playchess.com, which is the largest Blitz server on the Internet.
I agree that making a move should auto-refuse the draw offer, but frankly I would prefer the "offer rematch" function to be the first one added :)
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ogedei
2/10/2008
17:27:35
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
I must admit, a rematch function would be a great addition. It would certainly lend some sense of unity to a blitz session here on GameKnot.
I am also intrigued with heinzkat's idea of adding time to an opponent's clock with every draw offer. It would certainly take the steam out of an abuser's sails as he watches his opponent's clock climb ever higher. But, as heinzkat points out, perhaps discussing improvements to the blitz function is moot...
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toolostinyou
2/12/2008
01:11:03
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
or could be simply limited to 1 draw offer per move (fair enough ?)
i also encountered the castling problem several times (i don't know what exactly it does wrong, whether the track of king's/rook's moves or what), and some time ago it said i was checkmated when i was in fact not. It's rare though
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ravster
2/12/2008
01:20:54
[ report abuse ] | Question
Message:
I also notice that i cannot do the en passent in a blitz game. Does anyone else encounter this problem?
Ravi
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sailoratsea
4/03/2008
07:20:03
[ report abuse ] | Repetition
Message:
Similarly, the program frequently does not allow one to make the 'final' move when looking for a Draw by repetition ...any particular reasoning on this one?
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tugger
4/03/2008
09:26:55
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
also, when the position gets down to just kings, it is not considered a draw... i've actually been in this position twice, and twice i had less time, and twice my draw offer was refused. i just go and put the kettle on and leave my time to run out.
i believe it is time the blitz function here on gk was sorted out. i appreciate this is a cc site, and in my opinion it's the best on the web, but if they got the blitz section up to scratch, then this website would be far and away the best chess site on the web.
these are my suggestions...
castling, get that sorted
en passant,
dead positions
50 move rule
repetition
separate blitz rating
friendly (unrated) option
rematch
and possibly even choose opponent
if all this were implemented, then i would have no reason to go to other sites for blitz games. everything i need for my chess fix would be right here at gk.
and as such, it would encourage me, and of course others, to continue to pay for membership.
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heinzkat
4/03/2008
09:42:30
[ report abuse ] | Blitz suggestions!
Message:
1. Make a 'game hall' with say 50-100 tables (I don't know how many Blitz games are going on at the same time).
2. A player can choose one of these tables ('host') and set the playing conditions
3. These conditions that can be chosen:
- White/Black
- Allow watchers ('kibitzers')
- Mute watchers (watchers cannot chat, but can look at the game in progress)
- Time control (Fischer seems best with say 2-10 minutes plus 0 to 15 seconds per move)
- Option to challenge/'invite' a certain player...
4. Now when another player joins this table, both players need to push a button 'start' before the game actually starts...
5. When the match has started, there should be a chatbox in which at least the two participating players can exchange some thoughts (you know, like it is now too). When watchers are allowed (and not muted), they can just talk there too.
6. During the game, a move list should be generated, and after the match has finished there should be an option to export/save the PGN notation of the game. An option to replay the game seems OK too. Maybe the PGNs could be stored online as well.
7. After the game has ended, an option to play a rematch with the same conditions (switched colours perhaps).
8. Now here are some issues that could occur in the Blitz applet;
- En passant when the King is in check is not possible. This leads to even more problems when it is checkmate otherwise;
- Castlings do not work properly sometimes in the current application;
- The 'beep' after each move could be omitted;
- Offering a draw could be done more smoothly (without the javascript popup), ignoring the draw offer should be possible too, without having to click 'no draw';
- Detecting/claiming a draw should be done better (not enough mating material, like K vs. K, threefold repetition, 50 move rule, stalemate...);
- When promoting, don't make a javascript popup, but something handier, i.e. just like you have it in the analyze the board application;
9. A group chat in the open game hall.
10. A minimum of 5 wins in regular GameKnot games should be required to play on the Blitz chess application...
11. It's not absolutely necessary to make those games rated, but maybe it could be interesting; it's not a priority though...
(Sent these suggestions somewhere around December 2007)
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pgroenborg
4/03/2008
14:05:28
[ report abuse ] | Well spoken above
Message:
I haven't played in the blitz section for a long while, because of (some of) all the things mentioned above. It is just TOO annoying, when the rules aren't even followed.
Some years ago I played a lot of blitz on yahoo, but I discontinued it for some reason. It was however the best free site I could find at the time and what among others Heinzkat is saying above sounds pretty much like what yahoo was offering - AND THAT WORKED WELL FOR ME!!
I would really like this site to implement the recommendations that has come up here in this thread and get the blitz section up to the high standards of the cc chess that we all are praising in this forum all the time.
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pgroenborg
4/03/2008
14:14:56
[ report abuse ] | Forum
Message:
WOW they really do listen in (or someone petioned them real hard).
The forums now have their own little button on the left side - so we don't have to go for a little detour to find them!
Good again Gameknot!
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chessnovice
4/03/2008
15:11:30
[ report abuse ] | pgoenborg
Message:
That button has always been there. It only shows up when you are on the forum pages, though.
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pgroenborg
4/04/2008
02:06:48
[ report abuse ] | Yeah I saw that today
Message:
sad, why isn't there all the time?? I wonder.
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garos
4/04/2008
04:12:56
[ report abuse ] | It's a little strange
Message:
that the button only appears when you are already in the forums. It is like being handed a map of how to reach a certain destination just after you have actually arrived there, after detouring around in an effort to find the place.
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pgroenborg
4/04/2008
04:44:52
[ report abuse ] | Speaking of detours
Message:
Sorry for putting the BLITZ THREAD off the course.
How to proceed, do we pm GK with the recommendations or hint to them to read this thread?
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heinzkat
4/04/2008
04:46:37
[ report abuse ] | pgroenborg
Message:
As mentioned, I've sent this feedback in the beginning of December. Most likely, they will do nothing with it. :-) But perhaps somewhere in 2015?
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pgroenborg
4/04/2008
08:13:42
[ report abuse ] | my point
Message:
yeah I know you sent it some time ago, that's my point, how do we get them to take some action on a field where they really should!
Only thing I can think of is if they receive a lot of messages to improve it, but I don't like it to be too annoying for them (spamming them)...
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heinzkat
4/04/2008
08:28:08
[ report abuse ] | Yes,
Message:
While there are a lot of 'minor' things that could/should be improved (without too much work), the Blitz application is the 'big' project that deserves attention. Or is there anything else (that requires a lot of work) that deserves our (GK's) attention?
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ionadowman
4/04/2008
12:56:38
[ report abuse ] | pgroenborg...
Message:
... There is a way you can create your own "button" to get to the forums quickly; the "Bookmark this page" option. A very useful feature, I find.
So, you bookmark the Forum menu page, which gives you a quick link - a supplement to the list of options running down the left of your screen. The only thing is, the bookmarks don't appear when you are tooling around the forums, but the "Forum" button does appear, to let return you to the forum menu page.
Cheers,
Ion
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pgroenborg
4/10/2008
02:40:08
[ report abuse ] | Been talking to God
Message:
and I told him this (except for a typing mistake I made...):
"Blitz, please
Hi, I must say I vigorously enjoy being a member of this site! However being a "real time" chess player as well (in a club) I miss ONE thing here on GK, and that is a proper working blitz section.
As it is now I simply can't be bothered to play there when there are so many bugs and the service there is so low.
Earlier I used to blitz in yahoo and I quite liked how there were different rooms to play in and you could choose your opponent etc.
I will therefore urge you in a most sincere way to please remedy the lacks of quality there that are totally foreign to GK otherwise!
It is my firm conviction that an improved blitz section would make for an encompassing and REALLY GOOD web chess playing field. You wouldn't need to go anywhere else!
I don't know if you are aware of it, but we had a good chat about it in the forum: Here:  gameknot.com
Please read through the many good pieces of advice, they are there to be reaped for the greater good of Gameknot!"
cross my fingers and hope to achieve!
Cheers good guys
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ccmcacollister
4/10/2008
03:17:43
[ report abuse ] | haha ...
Message:
GAROS , I like your analogy :) I experienced the same strange situation in Heathrow airport ... where all the signs pointing you to Customs, Immigration & Baggage are found
AFTER you turn the corners. No sign, then you know you went the wrong way ( as long as you know there was Supposed to BE a Sign :))
* * * * *
pgroenborg , I think this link helps answer your Question above,"why isn't there all the time?? I wonder.." It was posted by heinzkat recently in the "Deletion" thread, but serves here too. Please refer there to the first paragraph of GAMEKNOT_COM post
of 11/29/2002 @ hour of 12:00:30 .
Another reason a lot of use seem to believe is that the harder to find FORUMS give new members time to figure out the site a bit; how it works & its philosophies & procedures, before they start posting things that might be repetitious or maybe get a forum ban if they do not realize it is "cleaner" speaking here than many poor Forums.
gameknot.com/fmsg/chess3/1157.shtml
gameknot.com
* * * * *
It would be so great if GK did start working up the blitz improvements they mentioned to me last year as being part of the Plan, but not scheduled at the time. I would much rather play otb Chess with the players here that I KNOW and already enjoy having played corr Chess with, than the strangers at other sites; which are often so much more unruly or obnoxious ... yet do nothing about that aspect there. I think too it would encourage more players to come in and look at joining GK for Corr aor OTB. As well as keep Me and some others HERE on this site for more of our time, than for us to have to go "out on the town" to hustle-up some OTB play, other than the 10 minute games here, or RATED OTB with opponent selection & rematches.
***
}8-)
IT REALLY Would make my Day, probably my YEAR, to see GK actually upgrade the OTB area. It would be REALLY great if they even KEPT the 10 min unrated as an option for Just For Fun or testing moves out.
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marinvukusic
4/18/2008
06:07:19
[ report abuse ] | Laughable but sad
Message:
I just finished playing against one of those "zero games" people - and he was using a computer in a Blitz game (it is not hard to memorize a few games and check later)! Incredible...
(No I don't think a top-10 GM would bother coming to GK for 10 minute Blitz games.)
I am starting to wonder why am I wasting my time here when 90% of time I am playing against engines (and now it happens in Blitz also). I mean I can do that on my own, no need to bother with going online.
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chessnovice
4/18/2008
06:38:58
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
I would think that engines are more common in blitz than in correspondence. Anyone impatient enough to learn how to play properly is probably too impatient to use an engine over a prolonged game. That's my line of thought, at least. I don't know what the competition is like at your level of play.
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pgroenborg
4/18/2008
08:58:22
[ report abuse ] | Incredible,yes
Message:
I don't get it either, using a machine in an unrated game?, what can the cheater possibly get out of it? It isn't like he wins the game, is it?
Sorry to hear that Marin, there will always be lesser sportsmanlike people but the amount of cheat you describe is staggering, if true so.
How can you tell? And are you making formal complaints to GK when you detect it?
On the matter in this thread, I got a reply some time ago, you can listen in:
Message from GameKnot customer support:
Hello, pgroenborg,
Thank you for your feedback, it will be passed on to our
development team for further consideration.
Thank you for choosing GameKnot as your premier chess
battlefield!
Best regards,
GameKnot.com
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marinvukusic
4/18/2008
10:58:40
[ report abuse ] | pgroenborg
Message:
It is very easy to detect. I always analyze my OTB games with Fritz and Rybka engines, so I do have them.
The Blitz games that were suspect I have put into the engine immediately after they were played (that is just a matter of short-term memory).
Why am I certain?
1. All moves were engine's first or second choice. This is pretty unlikely since there are 3-5 equal moves in the position at least several times in a game.
2. What is a dead giveaway is that he always spent 5-10 second per move for the entire 2 games we played (the amount of time needed to input the move into the engine and see the result). A person usually plays faster in simple positions and slower in complicated ones.
In correspondence chess - I know what level of play can be expected on which rating level, and I habitually analyze my losses (that is how I improved myself in chess). It is interesting to note that in all my losses the opponents made zero mistakes in those games yet played always very fast. Come on, that is impossible - most of these people have a LOT of games so how can they play so fast and with no mistakes? I usually slow down when things get going in the middlegame/endgame and I am a pretty solid OTB player.
Not to mention the number of people with records such as 80% wins, 18% draws and a few losses (no doubt against people with better computers).
One of my real-life friends (also a MK) told me that he had quit correspondence chess for the same reason I am contemplating - it is a waste of time and in any case I feel like an idiot when I give my best and then in analysis find out I just got beat by a computer.
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pgroenborg
4/21/2008
04:04:11
[ report abuse ] | Okay, that is good to know
Message:
I am still sad to hear that you are considering very hard whether... "Should I stay or should I go now", but I can understand it, I resent the fact that there are "players" not out there, but in here!! who are such cheats.
Well I said that already.
I've got my suspicious eye on one player that I am currently playing, and I will check the game after I loose with Fritz. He's got this incredibly staggering score of 133 wins, nil draws, nil losses!
The problem of identification of mischievous play that I have - is that I am no better than I am and so who am I to say that a great player can't "see" the game in an instant and come up with the clear plan. He too, has moved very swiftly.
I too have a chess buddy - that I lured to play here - and he was also taken back with playing computers, so he gave up all his games. However he came back with a vengeance and is happy to play here again.
Marin, there was one question you didn't answer: Do you report it? You should, every time, so they can get the kick
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marinvukusic
4/21/2008
06:10:37
[ report abuse ] | Impossible to prove beyond doubt
Message:
There is a lot of evidence (quickness of play with no mistakes in LOT of simultaneous games) but no hard proof.
So why bother with reporting when it can't be backed? In any case there is no way to do anything about it.
Besides if all computer users were banned that would be disastrous for GK (all top players use computer help out of necessity).
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ganstaman
4/21/2008
09:27:44
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
marinvukusic : "(all top players use computer help out of necessity)"
Quite a bold attack against a lot of respected players. Why is it not just possible that they're really good at this game?
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marinvukusic
4/22/2008
01:58:16
[ report abuse ] | IMHO
Message:
It is not likely that so many people can play on such a level without easily accessible computer help.
Kasparov is a small baby compared to these people if that is the case, since a lot of them play very fast. Why not just switch to OTB chess and annihilate everything in their path to the throne (it would not take more than a few years to reach 2750 ELO and then it is all easy)? Top level OTB chess pays very nicely.
Of course as I said I can't actually prove this so it is all my personal opinion. Of course this thread will get deleted anyway (every time anyone posts anything like this it happens).
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marinvukusic
4/22/2008
02:30:47
[ report abuse ] | Few links
Message:
correspondencechess.com
"There have been a number of people who have publicly stated they are giving up correspondence chess due to computers. Computers have certainly changed the character of the game. Few games end quickly due to blunders. It is progressively more difficult to win a game. I post a lot of draws to crosstables for cc events. The computer engine is the great equalizer. For many it is taking the fun out of the game. There is the feeling that you aren't competing against another player but against a machine. Some have said, "If I wanted to play a computer, I could do so without playing in a tournament." "
- My thoughts exactly :(
en.wikipedia.org
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ccmcacollister
4/22/2008
20:56:46
[ report abuse ] | marinvukusic ...
Message:
Do not believe that everyone uses computers. There are still those who honor the game and wish only that which is due to them. I was that type of player, before an illness that devastated my play. But in that regard, I still honor the game and do not seek to appear more than I am. There are others who will feel the same. And they are the only ones who will ever know the feeling of what that is like, to take on the best in the world by themselves, and say, "I did alright."
And that feeling is worth more than any false representation can ever be.
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lighttotheright
4/22/2008
22:20:35
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
gameknot.com
Given that chess is solved, what are we going to do? ;-)
I don't doubt that computers are used for analysis of previous games by top players (out of necessity), but not exclusively. I'm sure they do it for preparation too. However, I doubt they use them during an on going game.
I use computers to analyze previous games all the time, including those of top players on this site. Patterns don't add up to consistent computer use. In fact, computer use would likely hurt their play. Extensive databases (which are legal) are far more effective than a computer. They contain the combined wisdom of world class Grandmaster's as well as the world's best computer programs (because GMs use them in preparation).
I've had plenty of concern in the past about the possibility I was playing against a computer while at lower levels. In fact, I am sure that a few of my opponents did exactly that. Yet, I figured out that most were not using computer engines, but databases. I even figured out which databases some of them were using. The better you are at chess, the more effective you can use a chess database. They are extremely powerful in the correct hands.
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lighttotheright
4/22/2008
22:24:02
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
On that link above, scroll down to tag1153's post. Look at the joke as told by Capablanca. Enjoy. ;-)
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marinvukusic
4/23/2008
00:14:20
[ report abuse ] | tag's joke
Message:
That is probably the best chess joke of all time :)
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wuzzie
5/02/2008
17:14:43
[ report abuse ] | treefold repetition
Message:
still doesn't work. the computer refuses to move my third repetition... I've send an e-mail to gameknot and only get a standard reply. I did the same almost half a year ago...
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ccmcacollister
5/02/2008
19:38:46
[ report abuse ] | wuzzie ...
Message:
That 3XREP bug has existed there ever since I came to the site in late 2003. I have just taken it into account as a strategic consideration of play here :)
It can make for some amusing or interesting situations.
There is also a bug of sometimes castling is not allowed if delayed for too long after the back rank becomes cleared for it. These are the two most common bugs there. And this one is just as old as the other.
* * * * * * *
[And regarding that last bug, I have always wondered ... if it does refuse to castle b-cuz I waited too long ... what if I put a piece like my Knight BACK between that Rook and my King and then removed the Knight again to clear the rank for castling?! Would it then let me do it again, for a certain # of moves? ?! If anyone knows the answer to that Question I would dearly enjoy hearing what it IS ~! plz]
}8-D
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