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heinzkat
3/30/2008
14:12:48
[ report abuse ] |
 Subject: Conditional moves - why...
Message:
the reloading of the same board? It sort of 'pushes' you into moving again within a few seconds.
Instead, just the 'after move preference' should be followed (either going to the active games list or to the next game with my turn to move, or yes, stay on the same game board if you have chosen so in your profile).
This would also relieve the people (a bit) who really detest the whole concept of conditional moves. You go back to your games list and find out a move already has been made again, far less 'intimidating' than the immediate reload.
What do you think?
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ogedei
3/30/2008
14:32:50
[ report abuse ] | Agreed
Message:
It is somehow psychologically very different having the move immediately played, as it is now, than going back to the games list and seeing that it's your move in that game again.
It is perhaps a minor point, but I believe it would be an improvement.
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ogedei
3/30/2008
14:32:51
[ report abuse ] | Agreed
Message:
It is somehow psychologically very different having the move immediately played, as it is now, than going back to the games list and seeing that it's your move in that game again.
It is perhaps a minor point, but I believe it would be an improvement.
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munja100
3/30/2008
15:27:26
[ report abuse ] | I like it this way,
Message:
but I'm generally inclined to faster games
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marinvukusic
3/30/2008
15:53:48
[ report abuse ] | This is optimal IMHO
Message:
Allows for better use of time, and in any case I do not feel pressured at all to move if I am not ready.
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lturner
3/31/2008
03:10:46
[ report abuse ] | Leave it the way it is
Message:
If you do not want to answer the conditional move, just click off the game, but it is nice to have the option to continue the game that i already spent time analyzing. If the conditional follows my line of thinking I do not have to reanalyze at a later time.
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skepticbob
3/31/2008
03:35:15
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Message:
I prefer it the way it is. That way I see the next move while the game is still fresh in my head and can begin analyzing it. That doesn't mean I make a hasty move though.
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lighttotheright
3/31/2008
05:59:59
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Message:
The intimidation factor has more to do with perceived motives for the conditional move in the first place. The immediate reload certainly can reinforce that perception, but is not the cause. I find that once people get used to the idea of a conditional move, it is not a problem. It is just a psychological shock for new members when they first encounter it.
I would leave it as is. Now that I'm used to conditional moves, I actually love it when my opponent makes one. As Ituner has pointed out, your train of thought becomes unbroken and the immediate reload actually becomes a relief rather than a shock.
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kansaspatzer
3/31/2008
10:44:22
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
If I see a tactical sequence that I may forget about later, a conditional move is a good way not to forget.
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vulpecula
3/31/2008
10:51:19
[ report abuse ] | conditional moves
Message:
Personally, I don't make conditional moves as I consider them to be discourteous, particularly when a game is almost over. Even if I can mate next move, I will wait until my opponent moves before finishing the game.
Players using them against me won't get me up in arms however, because as mentioned above, you always have the option to go to another game.
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lturner
3/31/2008
19:31:55
[ report abuse ] | Discourteous
Message:
Is not resigning before mate on the next move.. You bet I will send that discourteous jerk conditional moves, and I will make one more move.......Placing them on my ignore list!!!!
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lighttotheright
4/01/2008
07:42:12
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
Conditional moves are made by many players here on GK for a variety of reason. Rarely is a conditional move discourteous.
The topic here is whether to change the reload feature for the conditional move. The actual merits of the conditional move have already been discussed at length many times. The fact is that some people still misconstrue the motives of the person using the conditional move. A conditional move is merely a move you don't have to wait to be made; there is nothing else to it. There is rarely any sinister motive behind it. In fact, often a conditional move is the only courteous thing to do, especially when the move is obvious. When people are under pressure they naturally think of their opponents in terms of sinister motives. Perhaps, the immediate reload feature of the conditional move tends to add more perceived psychological pressure--different people will likely perceive things differently. That's why this discussion of changing the reload feature for the conditional move is valuable.
I like the reload feature...now that I'm used to it. (When it was first used against me, the first thing I thought was "What! **** **** blankety blank no respect." But nothing could be further from the truth. It was just my first impression.) I think many others who currently don't like it may grow to appreciate it in the future as they play a lot more games. Some will never appreciate it; first impressions are powerful. So, maybe there should be an option in the profile to turn off the immediate reload feature--from a conditional move. I already have my profile set to reload the same game when I make a move. Why couldn't this same feature apply to when conditional moves are made? It should be a relatively easy fix.
Well that's my two cents worth.
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ccmcacollister
4/01/2008
10:55:42
[ report abuse ] | A confession ....
Message:
Yes, my conditional move offerings will frequently have sinister motive behind them. Not in anyway trying to be rude nor rush anyone; easy for me to say, since I never see anything rude about the concept, rather it seems to me a courtesy with which I have been well familiar for decades from postal chess play. But back to the motive(s).
***
Yes, I will often leave it so that the last conditional move offered will be in a critical position, especially if I feel the person may have a tendency to trot out a quick move just to have moved. That is why I usually resist making an immediate reply, myself, to a conditional rec'd and like to look it over well. Of course this technique is especially effective in a postion which looks rather anemic on the surface; or where the position is such that there is a "natural" looking move that jumps out asking to be played, but is an error or not best.
***
There may well be considerations behind a Conditional move offering, just as there may be behind a Draw Offer, or any other "move" in Chess. It IS a strategy game after all~! Is it then, so unusual to think that there may be strategy involved at several levels?
Be that as it may, there is NO WAY that anyone nor their Conditional Move can ever FORCE you to blunder nor force you into a particular play. It is STILL, as always, your choice. So just consider it like any other move you have received and look it over well. Perhaps extra-well. Like you would if you were at the OTB board, and your opponent slams out a fast, hard move that looks incorrect .... then your Warning Bells should go off in your mind ...and you Slow Down and look Hard, rather
then making a Counter-Bang move! Just normal prudence !!
}8-)
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chuckventimiglia
4/01/2008
13:30:15
[ report abuse ] | Conditional moves.....
Message:
have always been part of correspondence chess. They
are used to speed up a game that may take years to finish.
In the days of postal chess it was not very unusual for a game to
fgo on for two years or more. Conditional moves eliminate the
"long wait" for a forced move or a series of forced moves.
I realize that games here on GK do not go on for years BUT conditional moves
are just as much a part of GK like they are in every other correspondence site.
To think that they are discourteous is ridiculous.
When I leave a conditional move I am not trying to be discourteous I am using
whatever means we have at our disoposal to keep a game moving along. If
anyone wants to take that as being discourteous then what can I say and if they wait till the last minute to move that is also in their perogative to do so.
Conditional moves was by far the best feature added to thsi site and that was a few years ago.
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cairo
4/01/2008
14:03:57
[ report abuse ] | I
Message:
totally agree to what chuckventimiglia writing above!
Best wishes
Cairo
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heinzkat
4/02/2008
01:12:35
[ report abuse ] | Chuck, Cairo, Kansaspatzer, lturner, vulpecula...
Message:
Have you read my first message? :-)
Conditional moves are very handy (I use them too, every now and then); it's just the question why has the game board to be reloaded immediately, while you have in your preferences that you want to go back to your active games list, after having made a move?
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chessnovice
4/02/2008
01:45:48
[ report abuse ] | ...
Message:
I've been trying to think why this even happens. For some reason, I think it's more a consequence of pre-existing coding that the conditional moves were conformed to (much like how the page refreshes preferentially to an online opponent). I don't suspect it's intentionally due to separate coding.
I agree that it's something that should at least be controllable by the receiving end. I use conditional moves very often, and very seldom receive them. Whenever I do receive them, though, it comes a bit as a shock. Who knows what that does to my mind? :)
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heinzkat
4/02/2008
03:18:00
[ report abuse ] | Chessnovice
Message:
It must be 'separate coding' as you call it - '&am=1' is added in the URL (try it on one of your games with your turn to move, it will add the sentence 'A conditional move has been triggered'). So I wondered why the 'code' reloads the game board regardless what setting you have in your preferences (probably just not thought about, I supposed, that's why I brought it up).
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ganstaman
4/02/2008
05:56:37
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Message:
I think it reloads to make sure you are aware that the conditional move happened. It makes sure that you don't think you have time to wait for your opponent's move because you don't. I reload the board page anyway with all moves, but I like knowing that the recipients of my conditional moves are very much made aware of them.
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ccmcacollister
4/02/2008
07:38:52
[ report abuse ] | Imagine ...
Message:
The screen blackens .... slowly in a distant corner ....a feint glow begins to appear ....
a dim light slowly brightens across the screen... 64 gold trimmed squares begin to drift in , spinning, from all sides of the screen ...the voice of John Wayne announces slow and low ... "YOUuuu are aboutt to receive a conditional move . . . " , ... a drum roll from the distance comes to the foreground ... Sign flashes "IF YOU ARE SQUEEMISH..." and we hear the theme from "2001 a Space Odyssey"
daaaa ....daaa .....dummm
daaaa ....daaa .....dummm
daaaa ....daaa .....dummm
duh duh dum , DUM DUM DUMmmmmm
DA ........DAaaaa ..........DUMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
The voice of HAL says, "Your conditional move is ready, Dave"
"Would you like to play a game of Chess now?" :)
****************************************
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ccmcacollister
4/02/2008
07:44:34
[ report abuse ] | hmmm
Message:
heinzkat You know I don't know the "how" it happens from the coding bit. But I was thinking about the "why" it happens. Wondering if it might be in part to do with the "ERROR LOADING" 'please reload your screen' (however it actually says it) that can occur during normal requests for a board to make a move? I've never actually had that happen to me on a Conditional Move received. But if it did, since it loaded immediately,or tried to, I would be aware of a problem if it didn't straighten out, and have some time to contact GK or PP. ?
***
Other than that, I cannot see why it Would reload automatically. (Unless this is much different than programming in BASIC, in this way?! That's the thought mode I'm seeing it in anyway...) Since it would seem to me that the FILE of that position was already created and position verified by the IF Sender ...so it is just a matter of telling it to open and display. Don't see any reason it could not be told just to OPEN
but do Not display to ME, yet still be ready to on the game Queue etc. ?
***
What do you think?
***
There is no reason it HAS to display to me is there, other than having been told to intentionally ? Might it be that the FILE or DISPLAY needs re-verified upon transferring from one account to the 2nd player? (or is it Just Displaying to him anyway?) Perhaps a re-verification step because of some other functions with the FILE about to be performed? Putting it to Queue / to Active Games List / Other ?!
And still, WHY is it SHOWN to us ?
It's often amazed me how most Everything on GK seems to have Thought behind it. This Why is real interesting to me now . . .
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lturner
4/02/2008
20:31:54
[ report abuse ] | heinzkat
Message:
I thought I answered that. Because it is nice to be able to continue your train of thought immediately instead of starting over at a later time. The time control is handled so that you get credit for the move. If you wish, you can click off the game with no penalty, but if it does not reload you will not even know that there was a conditional move met. It would be stupid to not reload the move, but if anyone would want to make the insane decision not to want to not have to reanalyze I would fully support a setting allowing my opponents the opportunity to have to reanalyze the game fresh giving them a much better chance to blunder!!
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