Message:
it's all the more shocking when you consider the ratings of the players involved...

the lesson is don't blindly follow the database... one should always analyse a suggested move to be sure it's not an error...

masros

4/03/2008
09:57:24
[ report abuse ]

Message:
Switch to 1900++

lighttotheright

4/03/2008
11:17:15
[ report abuse ]

Message:
Well, let's switch to 1900++.

Look at this:

gameknot.com

Apparently there are still 1900++ players unfamiliar with one Paul Morphy's most famous games. That is just pitiful. For players under 1900 that might be understandable. But for players over 1900, they should have already studied many of the classic games in history. This one should have been one of the first they learned. I learned it by heart when I was still about a 1500 player some 25 years ago.

lighttotheright

4/03/2008
11:39:00
[ report abuse ]

Message:
I don't know what happened to the link; but if you click back, then the error will clear. You will end up in an earlier part of the game. Just follow the Qb3 link on the page and you will see what I am talking about. It is bad enough that black would enter this line, but they continue to make errors.

ganstaman

4/03/2008
12:01:25
[ report abuse ]

lighttotheright

Message:
Hmmmm, when you (a generic 'you') try to post that link, "<WBR>" pops itself into the URL for some reason.

Can't seem to post the link properly past the move ...dxe5.

ionadowman

4/03/2008
12:19:28
[ report abuse ]

Interesting...

Message:
... I've had that line (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4) played against me recently. Naturally I followed Morphy's recipe, but my opponent soon diverged... But I did discover something about that 3...Bg4 line: masters continued playing it for quite some years after the Morphy - Duke of Brunswick game. It turns out that after 4.dxe5 Nc6 or ...Nd7 White has to keep on his toes. A move like 5.exd6, for instance, could easily rebound on his own head...

As for the earlier link... Dear, dear me...
Cheers,
Ion

heinzkat

4/04/2008
09:22:07
[ report abuse ]

"Switch to 1900++"

Message:
Nope, not much better:

gameknot.com

:-)

lighttotheright

4/04/2008
09:48:12
[ report abuse ]

Message:
Nf6# WOW!!!

How was that missed? But to be fair to masros, he claims in his profile that that was his worst game here on GK. We all make stupid mistakes.

The funny thing is that I made my recent blunder playing the same opponent, fastbernie.

kansaspatzer

4/04/2008
10:59:07
[ report abuse ]

Message:
Although I'd love playing at that pace, the game would have to be played in one sitting, and if the game goes into an endgame, it just ends up being a battle of who has the most time available to spend online.

kansaspatzer

4/04/2008
12:19:37
[ report abuse ]

Message:
I replied to another thread and it showed up here, strangely.

ionadowman

4/04/2008
12:44:20
[ report abuse ]

Well...

Message:
... this thread is about short games... sort of.

I've been guilty of a couple of opening clangers myself, leading to a couple of very short games. But then, I've never been clever in the openings.

To my mind, though, these quick kills in the opening are useful to have on the databese: they show you what not to play. This depends, of course, on whether one has the wit to scan ahead of where the game is at to see how things are likely to develop. It can be a nasty surprise, I reckon, to find such-and-such a move has a 60% score in your favour, then, when the reply comes back you find he has chosen the one move that has had a positive score in your opponent's favour.

Apropos of bad opening play, I've been thinking lately about why it is not one book for beginners, with the partial (and very welcome) exception of Yasser Seirawan's brief survey, looks at opening play popular among learning players. The sort of thing is 1.e4 e5 2.Qh5 - which move is quite hard to meet until you discover how; or 1.h4, with the idea of bringing the rooks quickly into action. Perhaps one for another thread?

Cheers,
Ion

pgroenborg

4/05/2008
09:02:35
[ report abuse ]

The svesnikov

Message:
I've been on the black side of that terrible position in an OTB blitz in my club. You only make that mistake ONCE!! Then you remember to play Bg7 FIRST... LOL

heinzkat

4/12/2008
09:12:43
[ report abuse ]

Another example...

Message:

gameknot.com

Qxb7 (scoring 100%) is not the best move...

ionadowman

4/12/2008
14:11:17
[ report abuse ]

Two players....

Message:
... overlooked the mate?? Well, looking at their ratings, I suppose one ought not to be so surprised. Maybe.
You're having a ball with this, aren't you heinzkat!?
;-)

heinzkat

4/12/2008
14:21:21
[ report abuse ]

I have had this similar game now

Message:
A couple of times, and the DB doesn't account (word?) for it. It's just a bit strange.

heinzkat

4/12/2008
14:28:11
[ report abuse ]

*also note

Message:
That "back to game" brings you to how it 'should' be played.

juanvaldezmyhero

4/12/2008
14:35:35
[ report abuse ]

Yes, the DB can be dangerous

Message:
I have won in a very similar situation. faced with:

gameknot.com
my opponent played b6. Which right now is 100% in favor of black. Of course, it is also a mate in two for white. Here is a game in which white plays the decisive Bxf7 and still manages to miss the mate and ultimately lose.
javascript:popa(7226686,0,15)

juanvaldezmyhero

4/12/2008
15:02:37
[ report abuse ]

that didn't work

Message:
here is the diagram:

chessnovice

4/12/2008
15:14:11
[ report abuse ]

...

Message:
He plays Bd5 after Bxf7, and goes on to lose. How brutal.

heinzkat

4/12/2008
15:27:55
[ report abuse ]

The thing is

Message:
that around points where 'mate is in the air' the DB seems to be heavily corrupted. Look up the position that juanvaldez has posted in the Database and see what it suggests after several Black replies...

lturner

4/12/2008
16:42:06
[ report abuse ]

Simple question

Message:
Who in the he** uses a database and does not first look the position over? That would be DUMB!! You use a database to assist you in your moves, not to make them for you. You also do not use a database that allows any games below expert rating, 2000 on most sites, about 2200 here. If you blindly follow a database, or allow lower rated games on your database, I sure hope we play a league or tourney game in the future. I would like to take some of your rating points!!!

chessnovice

4/12/2008
20:20:34
[ report abuse ]

heinzkat

Message:
I think the database is designed to avoid showing people how to produce mate. I doubt there exists a line on the database that ends in checkmate. It goes with the fairness of not allowing others to play the game for you. There are probably scores of very brief games that the database doesn't even try to pick up.

lturner

4/13/2008
08:10:00
[ report abuse ]

chessnovice

Message:
Do you know what a database is? It simply is a compilation of games from beginning to end. If a game in the database ends in mate, yes there will be a mate in the database. As it is a compilation only, that is why they are legal in CC play while engines are not.

Databases do not "pick up' anything they just spit out the next move in every game it has where the position exists. It does not edit, analyze or assist the player. It just recites history.

tim_b

4/13/2008
08:28:08
[ report abuse ]

Message:
I think chessnovice is right, actually. The following quick mate of mine does not seem to feature in the database, even though newer games do:

game

chessnovice

4/13/2008
09:48:45
[ report abuse ]

lturner

Message:
I certainly hope I know what a database is, considering I've spent years compiling and analyzing one of my own. I defy you to find a game that played out entirely on the Gameknot database. I've kept my eye out for one, and I use the database pretty regularly.

Until you can find such a game, I'd appreciate if you could refrain from posting in such a condescending tone towards me again.

heinzkat

4/13/2008
10:17:56
[ report abuse ]

...

Message:
The DB is 'flawed' sometimes, and I don't think the games that were posted, went this way because the DB 'told so'. But it IS interesting to see the DB output at such points.

For example, you get an 'infinity loop' (don't know the exact name, sorry) when someone played a move that makes the game return to the same position that was reached before in the game (in other words, like a threefold repetition). But sometimes it only was a 'twofold repetition' and the game went on, after the position had been reached for the second time. (the output CAN be misleading then)

Also, I noticed at some time there was the possibility to take a full Knight on g4 in one move (Qd1xg4), but the DB 'suggested' to play Ng1-f3 since that would make the game return to the main line, only with a different move order. Perhaps even Black's move before that (e7-e6, blocking the diagonal Bc8-g4 and thus making Qxg4 possible) would have been suggested - I'm not sure since I can't find the exact position.

"Databases do not 'pick up' anything, they just spit out the next move in every game it has where the position exists. It does not edit, analyze or assist the player. It just recites history."

Wrong assumption you have here, I think. The output of GameKnot's Database is most of the time OK. But sometimes it doesn't account for 'strange' situations.
...

ionadowman

4/13/2008
13:26:36
[ report abuse ]

???

Message:
I'm a little puzzled about recent remarks. Clarification please?
It has been indicated that the GK database (dB) "suggests" replies to any given move, provided the position has been reached before in GK games. I've understood that all these "suggestions" are, are responses that have been made on GK to this given move.

That mate in 2 that was overlooked by 4(!) players (I suppose one might call it 3.5 players since one of them found the first move of the 2-move sequence) indicates that none yet have found it - unless one has, and the game hasn't yet found its way onto the dB.

But heinzkat and others also seem to observe something that I have occasionally wondered at: why some games never seem to make it to the dB at all. I gather the dB is not updated immediately a game is concluded, but en bloc at regular or irregular intervals. At that, it would appear that many games slip through the cracks. I've had occasion to look up some past game of mine to find it not appearing on the dB at all. True, one has to expand the search into the 1500+ dB, but often it's not there either...

Anyone else found this?
Cheers,
Ion

lturner

4/13/2008
16:22:43
[ report abuse ]

chessnovice

Message:
Here are three just from one position. Do you not notice these on the bottom of the positions.

Nh3 1-0, sahnerolle (1717) vs. futile (1680)
Qe2 0-1, jeff456 (1520) vs. dirjo (1650)
Qc1 0-1, ciocionheart (1822) vs. dilly (1729)

Yes, I do know what a database is as I too have been compiling one for over 5 years, over 9 million games all expert and above. I still look the position over before playing the move that the database suggests, if you want to call it that. What it actually does is advise you of the games it has, what the results are based on the moves.

Of course it is easy to blindly follow the database until your opponent plays a move the games in your database does not have, then....OH MY.... you actually have to use your grey matter to continue.

The reason most good databases do not have mates in it is that expert+ players know how and when to resign.

wschmidt

4/13/2008
16:35:52
[ report abuse ]

Wow, what a strange judgement call...

Message:
by the site managers! I really couldn't believe that games ending in checkmate were not being picked up on the database but it appears to be true - and not at all related to a delay. Most of my games don't end in checkmate but I happened to have one which did on Nov. 15 last year. Sure enough, it's not in the database. And just to compare, I looked for a game that ended on Nov. 27 - and there it was.
*
This strikes me as following from the same philosophy that led GK to disallow the use of endgame databases. I.e., somehow using either games that end in checkmate or databases that clearly indicate what is a win, loss or draw and how to get there, isn't within the spirit of the game or, at least the way GK wants the players on the site to approach the game. To me, it's a misunderstanding of the nature of correspondence chess. That said, it's their site and it's one of the few things I don't agree with here at GK. So I'll grin and bear it.

ogedei

4/13/2008
16:58:14
[ report abuse ]

--> wschmidt

Message:
I agree. I was a little taken aback by the prohibition on endgame BOOKS that demonstrate a win in any given position. It's like, "hmmm... I think I'll consult this book for tips on bishop versus knight endgames... hey, there's my position... oh, crap, there's the mate, I just broke the rules."

Hasn't happened yet for me, but I'm certain that at some point it will for any player that consults endgame books.

lturner

4/13/2008
18:10:22
[ report abuse ]

wschmidt

Message:
Just a guess is that the reason for the ban is that the person loading the database made the decision that anyone allowing them self to get mated is a poor player, so they eliminated the game. It is the same type of judgment call I would make.

chessnovice

4/13/2008
22:06:22
[ report abuse ]

lturner

Message:
None of the games you showed actually have their entire games played out entirely on the database. Those games are merely linked to in the middle of the game.

So perhaps you simply misread my post. I said that the database avoids uploading mate as a next move in the line.

masros

4/13/2008
22:11:45
[ report abuse ]

Message:
If you dont trust GK database,why don't you all download all games from top player eg.top 30 GK's and then make yourself an opening book.

jstevens1

4/14/2008
05:56:22
[ report abuse ]

Chessops

Message:
I think the database becomes untrustworthy once the main lines have been exhausted. But how do we differentiate between the main lines and the off beat? One answer is to find a database called ChessOps which gives a concise guide to the basic main line openings. I think that is trustworthy enough. After that the moves in the database should be considered like normal candidate moves that you think of - analyse the board should then be used. It pays to ask yourself, do you feel comfortable with the position at the end and use the lines most favourable to your opponent to see if there really is a refutation and if so what. If you do feel comfortable with it proceed, if not, choose a different line.

I hope this helps.

Joanne

ccmcacollister

4/14/2008
16:10:20
[ report abuse ]

Message:
Everytime I see this thread Title the song "Don't Pay The Ferryman" starts playing in my head ... Arggh

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