| From | Message |
suffolkgal
4/15/2008
03:19:57
[ report abuse ] |
 Subject: The Leagues are a Mess
Message:
Why it's a mess
==============
D1 - 399 players - Min rating 1266 - Max rating 1986
D2 - 523 players - Min rating 1016 - Max rating 1768
D3 - 280 players - Min rating 719 - Max rating 1638
None of the C or E divisions have more than 72 players.
Playing players within 200 +/- rating makes sense, but what is the point in having players with over 700 points difference in rating in the same league?
This is forcing a situation whereby, to get promoted, high ranked players in the league pick off the low ranked players for the easiest points. It would hardly improve the game of the high ranked player, and it's not much fun for the low ranked player.
I feel that the league system needs a total revamp:
1. An equal number of players in every division.
2. Appropriate numbers of promotions and demotions to keep it that way, taking into account new players joining Gameknot and players leaving.
My view is not an isolated one, I have had replies from my team that agree with me.
Can Gameknot please do something about this?
Thank you in antcipation, Jenny
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heinzkat
4/15/2008
04:42:59
[ report abuse ] | Yes, there are some changes
Message:
That would be needed. This has been discussed in the past, I know for sure, but I think the easiest solution here would be
- All players with 10 or more points will get promoted to the next higher division and players with -10 or less points will get relegated to the next lower division. If a division has more than 30 players, top 5 players will also get promoted and bottom 5 players will be relegated. In case a division has more than 60 players, 10 players will be promoted and 10 relegated. In case a division has more than 120 players, 20 players will be promoted and 20 relegated. In case a division has more than 240 players, 40 players will be promoted and 40 relegated. Only players with 3 or more completed games can be promoted/relegated.
What do you think? The league isn't 'perfect', never has been, but this seems a bit sensible...?
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suffolkgal
4/15/2008
06:49:36
[ report abuse ] | Some comments from my team members
Message:
I am sure my team won't mind if I post these particular private messages onto the forum. Everyone in the team that has replied to me feels the same way i do.
So now it's down to Gameknot to do something about it!! (please!)
====================================
Private message from catmando:
Hi Jenny,
I think one of the main issues with the League is that anyone new joining the league automatically begins in the same division (I think it's D1 or C3, I can't remember?)
There also is never a real ending to League play. It's just goes on indefinetely with a player moving up and down through divisions. There should be "League Championships" at some point, I would think?
Cheers, Ray
=====================================
Private message from aannett:
Hello, suffolkgal!
Yes, there is a lot of players.
I only played a very short time in league play, so don't know much about it. I took a look at some of the other Divisions and there is some ratings that are 450+ apart.
The only thing that I can think of is what someone to come up with a new system.
Sorry I'm not much help on this one.
You could write this up and put it in gameknot forum and see what kind if answer you get from it. ....... Al .....
=========================================
Private message from devalangin:
Hello, suffolkgal!
I completely agree, that is one of the reasons that I don't play in the league games any longer. Players end up completely dominating other players in the same division. That is completely against the purpose of divisions. And since you have to accept a challenge from within a league, it means that stronger players can challenge significantly weaker players even though they might be about to move divisions. The current system can be "gamed" too much. It is too easy to manipulate. I don't want to have to think about how to cheat the system if I participate in the league games, but everyone is forced to because it puts them at a disadvantage if they do not. It isn't any fun to always worry about things like that and it also isn't fun to be forced to play an opponent that should not be in the same division.
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suffolkgal
4/15/2008
06:55:25
[ report abuse ] | Reply to: heinzkat
Message:
Hello Heinz,
I think your suggestions are excellent. I also feel it is currently so badly in need of a drastic fix an even more radical solution would work as the initial remedy.
Total up how many players there are in ALL the Divisions. Divide that number by how many divisions there are and equally allocate players to each division based on their current league +/- score.
Then at the end of each month, repeat this procedure, plus allocate x number of places for promotion and demotion.
Pretty much anything has to be better than the current unplayable system. I feel sure even more players would join the Leagues if a good system was in place.
Come on Gameknot!! Let's hear from you :-) !!!
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suffolkgal
4/15/2008
06:59:28
[ report abuse ] | taken this to League Forum !
Message:
whoops .. posted in wrong forum ;)
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chesschic2000
4/15/2008
16:17:02
[ report abuse ] | league games.
Message:
Jen,
Personnally I do not play in League games. However, I do not worry about my personal rating. I try to play chess to unwind from the daily stress, choas, havoc that is my life.
So I try to remind my self that it is a game. Only a game, and I enjoy the game.
Let me know if you feel like playing sometime.
Britton.
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nathanman22
4/15/2008
17:23:28
[ report abuse ] | Sorceress Queen
Message:
Does this mean our friend Sorceress Queen will finally get some league competition? Here's something to consider--well leagues do need some revamping, we must consider that it is assumed that the higher ranked players will move on to higher leagues but what happens is some don't play enough games to move there--and most likely will not be challenging the lower ranked players that much...just what I've seen from playing in the leagues myself--I rarely get a challenge 200 points outside of my rank....
I do agree that D1 and D2 are large, but new players have to start somewhere....How else do you recommend that we place new players?
Although nothing is perfect, I would like to see a solution presented that would handle these above issues...Although, heinzkat has presented some great ideas about increasing movement in the leagues, the question about starting location has not been addressed--it will always be bigger in the leagues in which people are just starting are placed and there will always be slow players whose rank may raise beyond their league play--this is only 1 part of gameknot.....
Do you have a better solution to solve these issues?
-Nathanman22
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suffolkgal
4/15/2008
18:09:47
[ report abuse ] | Reply to: nathanman22
Message:
Hi Nathan,
Yes, I do have an answer to what happens when new players join:
Each month when promotions and demotions are processed, the number of new players joining the league is taken into account and extra promotions/demotions are given to ensure the Divisions always stay equal in size.
I hope this clarifies my proposal.
Jenny
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dysfl
4/16/2008
10:02:46
[ report abuse ] | The brighter side of
Message:
current situation is that for D1 and D2 players, it is a vast pool of opponents.
As for me, I'm kind of in between of D1 and D2. So, I could select from 1450-1600 rating players in both divisions any time. And I'm in D1 30% of the time, D2 70% of the time. I like the current situation only I'm at this specific situation.
One thing I could suggest is that we could create a seperate league division. Say, W for anything goes. W is mainly for new comers, and after 10-20 league games, they will be placed to current league divisions matching their performance in W. Also, anyone could join division W, besides regular ones. And the matches in W will be made by the system, not choice by the players, at random.
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usethepawn
4/17/2008
02:35:13
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
All players with 10 or more points will get promoted to the next higher division and players with -10 or less points will get relegated to the next lower division. If a division has more than 30 players, top 5 players will also get promoted and bottom 5 players will be relegated. In case a division has more than 60 players, 10 players will be promoted and 10 relegated. Only players with 3 or more completed games can be promoted/relegated.
When joining the league initially, players with rating 1199 or less start in division D3, rating 1200 to 1499 -- division D2, rating 1500 to 1899 -- division D1, rating 1900 and higher -- division C3.
Those are the current rules for the Gameknot League taken from  gameknot.com
Seems like what your suggesting is already in place to me, unless ive missed something?
There are 1734 active players in the league right now and 18 divisions so that would be an average of almost 100 players in each division. It makes sense that there are more players in the middle divisions because a mojority of the players on this site are rated at around 1400-1500 with very little ranked say 2200+ with the A divisions containing only these players at the moment
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suffolkgal
4/17/2008
03:00:44
[ report abuse ] | reply to: usethepawn
Message:
With all due respect, I think you've missed the point a little :-)
The problem with the existing system is that there is far too much variation in ranking inside some divisions. Some divisions have in excess of 500 players, while some have very few.
My idea is to have the same number of players in every division after promotions/demotions are applied at the end of every month.
Please see my first posting for a more detailed breakdown.
Jenny
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zoltantor
4/17/2008
09:33:34
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
League is a pyramidal Ladder, this is de facto. Bigger in the base, smaller in the peak.
One of the problems (IMO, the big) is the amount of league games a player can carry: There is no limits. A player can select a number of league games that forbid the other players in his current division to challenge him(her). BUT this number don't forbid him(her) to take unlimited games (the only limit is the membership status). Things will run slightly different if the game limit bond both ways.
An example: What happen when a player, carrying lots of league games, suddenly, timeout (for any reason) in all the games? Lots of free league points for lots of players. The not-the-last example: akrep_pasa (And I'm not happy to point to him as an example). Things can have been different with the league limit on him.
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suffolkgal
4/17/2008
09:41:48
[ report abuse ] | reply to: zoltantor
Message:
The league does not HAVE to be pyramidal. My points is precisely that this is one of the factors making it the mess it is. What is the point of having a division with one player in it?
I tend to agree, that it would make things easier if all players had/wanted to play the same number of league games at one time, but I tend to think this is impractical.
However, I do feel if a player has not played a league game in X period, then there is little point in them being listed. Afterall, what's the point of having a league with inactive players?
As for players timing out, I think it's swings and roundabouts.
Jenny
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suffolkgal
4/17/2008
09:43:21
[ report abuse ] | Gameknot, where are you?
Message:
I am rather disapppointed that Gameknot has not shown an interest in this topic.
The aim is to produce a more playable, fun league!
Jenny
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zoltantor
4/17/2008
14:15:37
[ report abuse ] | To suffolkgal
Message:
[quote]
The league does not HAVE to be pyramidal.
[/quote]
Well, IT IS. It was designed to be pyramidal and started with this aim...
Maybe your problems are in the name, not in the rules. If it was named 'Ladder', the problems disappears and the rules works fine too..., right?
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suffolkgal
4/17/2008
14:33:42
[ report abuse ] | Reply to: zoltantor
Message:
I suggest you real ALL of the posts in the thread and then make a more informed reply.
Thanks for your comments anyway.
Jenny
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tugger
4/17/2008
16:19:20
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
i got sick of the leagues, i found that a good run of games will get you promoted, but the bad results, which of course you're thinking about for longer, will carry into the higher league, and you'll drop more points than if you lose to someone in your new division. it was a right mess. i found myself having to resign games just before i got promoted, even though i might just be a pawn down, just to avoid dropping more points by losing it when i had been promoted, and finding myself relegated the next week.
the only way a league can really work is by having ten or maybe twenty players in each division, everyone plays each other twice, and after completion, some go up, some go down. but how do you do this with hundreds of players? we can't have a league of fifty where everyone plays everyone else twice, it would take years. and even with a league of just ten, some leagues would finish earlier than others, and there would be a long wait for the new season.
so really all gk can do is leave it as it is, and if you don't like it, stick to mini tourneys instead.
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suffolkgal
4/17/2008
18:32:27
[ report abuse ] | Gameknot
Message:
I have sent a message to Gameknot asking them to review the forum messages regarding the league. It states on their form that they will reply within 3 days.
FYI ....
Hi Gameknot,
We have been discussing the format of the Leagues in the forums over the past few days and I also put out a message to my team asking for feedback.
It seems pretty much everyone is in agreement. The League needs to be changed to a more playable format.
Please see postings in the forums for details.
Thank you in antcipation of you doing something about this!
Regards, Jenny
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usethepawn
4/18/2008
20:52:17
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
With all do respect to you suffolkgal i think you are missing the point.
Having the same amount of players in every division means that there would be 100 players in each division and what happens when you are in A1? you dont go anywhere.
I also believe that there is only one division with one player and that is A2 with sorceress_queen? I dont understand why you think it pointless to only have one player in a division wouldnt that mean you think its pointless to only have one chess world champion?
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suffolkgal
4/19/2008
10:10:08
[ report abuse ] | reply to: usethepawn
Message:
I respect you have your opinion and I have mine :-)
We can all see clearly which way it would go if it went to the vote. So I'm happy to let democracy take it's course.
Jenny
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heinzkat
4/19/2008
13:19:47
[ report abuse ] | Hmm...
Message:
Off-topic, but is this a bug? This thread is listed in the 'GameKnot Related' subforum, but at the top of the page it links to the Chess forums. Leaves you puzzled!
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usethepawn
4/20/2008
04:38:30
[ report abuse ] | suffolkgal
Message:
I can respect your opinion also and am not trying to have a go at your or anything but just trying to show that the league works better the way it is. There should be more people in the medium divisions and less in the top.
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suffolkgal
4/20/2008
04:55:54
[ report abuse ] | Reply to: usethepawn
Message:
I'd be interested in hearing of any league in any game or sport that operates with divisions that only have one player ...
Jenny
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fsud
4/20/2008
20:09:06
[ report abuse ] | heiznkat
Message:
It appears this thread started in "Chess" and was moved here.
It is interesting that it shows "Chess" at front.
(Sorry for the off-topic noise suffolkgal.)
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easy19
4/21/2008
12:42:37
[ report abuse ] |
Message:
I have not read it all.
But what about using the mini tournament system on the league games..
Quote >>
If over time player's rating falls 200 or more points below the low limit or rises 200 or more points above the high limit, that player will be automatically withdrawn from the mini-tournament. All games that haven't been started for the player yet are considered to be forfeited in their opponent's favor for the purpose of calculating the mini-tournament score, without affecting anyone's rating nor stats. All completed and still active games are counted towards the mini-tournament score as usual. Excluding mini-tournaments with no rating limits. <<<<<
I think with some little adjustments it can be implemented for a good part into the league division system..
Perhaps something like at 200 above the division rating your score get Max up to 10 points and you move up. wen you get 200 below you get -10
This is a bit tricky because the normal games can effect your league division but i think a work around is possible
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chessnovice
4/21/2008
14:20:23
[ report abuse ] | fsud
Message:
Good observation.
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levellerlevvie
4/21/2008
15:51:06
[ report abuse ] | Why working with absolute numbers?
Message:
Instead of 30 players - 5 promote/demote; 60 - 10; 120 - 30; 240 - 40 ...
why not taking a percentage? for eg 10% of the league players promote/demote.
It would give 30 players - 3 promote/demote; 60 - 6 ; 90 - 9 ; ... Roundings could be up for [5-9] and down for [0-4] ... so 36 players would give 4 promote/demote but 34 would give 3 promote/demote
Funny thing, I already suggested this like 1.5 years ago to Gameknot. I actually got an answer where they admit that things are not completely as they should be and that they were working on a solution. I never saw something changed though so I wonder if they are still working on the solution (doubtfull) or that they just threw away the plans to change something (probably)
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wrecktangle
4/24/2008
17:46:34
[ report abuse ] | something is going on...
Message:
...in addition to akrep_pasa going missing and a number of league points being given out without earning them, now redmecca and superju are getting timeouts. Superju in particular seems to be upset about something.
I continue to not like the point earning scheme. Some of these folks drop one group (easy to do in the higher classes) and you lose half your point gathering potential AND draws now count -0.5, if they go down two and you go up one? Forgetaboutit as my joisey friends say.
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wuzzie
4/24/2008
18:19:54
[ report abuse ] | some suggestions
Message:
everyone new could start in F3 at the bottom bottom and work their way up :)
but then it would take a little longer to climb up the ladder and that is less atractive for stronger players.
Eventually you will reach your division limit. whether you are all put in F3 or D1... and falling down is easier than climbing up, probably there was a time no one was even in B1... and there wil be a time there will be 20 in A1.
maybe the dividing of new players could be more subtle:
0-1000 in F3
1000-1100 in F2
1100-1200 in F1
1200-1300 in E3
1300-1400 in E2
1400-1500 in E1
1500-1600 in D3
1600-1700 in D2
1700-1800 in D1
1800-1900 in C3
1900-2000 in C2
2000+ in C1
the B's and A's still have to be earned
maybe one should be prevented to be able to challenge players with a rating difference of more than 200 points, so people cannot cheat in getting higher.
maybe if you are promoted, a win against someone of a lower division should be +0.5, but a loss should stay -1, only if the difference is 2 divisions it could be -2
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