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I have offered two draws so far, but my opponent has refused them. He has a right to play on and I understand this, but I want to know....is this a drawn position? It's looks that way to me, even though I'm two points down....I want a professional opinion. Thank you.

-Nathan

chessnovice

5/21/2008
10:10:22
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...

Message:
I'll withhold my comment for when the game is finished. >.>

tim_b

5/21/2008
10:19:55
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Message:
I'm not a professional, but as a personal rule I won't offer draws when I'm down material. I prefer to wait for my opponent to offer.

nathanman22

5/21/2008
11:00:38
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I apologize

Message:
I should not have asked questions relating to a game prior to its finish. I thought it was just illegal to ask for information relating to possible moves, not the overall state of the game. Apparently, I was wrong. I do not wish to get myself in trouble. I misunderstood what the rules were in this area...please do not respond in this thread until after the game is over. I do not seek an unfair advantage, I simply sought an overall viewpoint of a game that to me seemed to be definitely a draw....and I wanted to know if I was right. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Nathanman22

heinzkat

5/21/2008
11:25:31
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Message:
One relief: White was winning anyway. :-)

ionadowman

5/21/2008
14:07:38
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Rather an interesting ending...

Message:
... I agree with heinzkat: White is winning - or has all the winning chances at any rate. But of course, he has to arrange to exchange rook for bishop and pawn - or even just rook for bishop in some circumstances.
For this reason, I might have been inclined to play 57.Rf5 instead of 57.Ke4, hoping for 57.Rf5 Kd6 (say) 58.Rxf4 gxf4 59.Kc4 with a straightforward win. Black's best response (I'll need to check this) would seem, then, to be 57.(Rf5) Bc1 after which White can try this kind of plan: 58.Kc4 Be3 59.Rf6+ Kc7 60.Kb5 Bd4 61.Rf7+ Kd6 62.Rb7 Ke5 63.Rxb6 Bxb5 64.Kxb6 Kf4 65.Kxa5 Kxf3 66.Kb4 Kxg4 67.a5 with an elementary win.

Having said that, 57.Ke4 also wins, but maybe White has to be careful. E.g. 57.Ke4 Bc1 58.Kf5!? Bf4 59.Kg6 Bc1 60.Rxg5 Bxg5 61.Kxg5 b5! 62.axb5 Kxb5 63.f4 a4 and Black should hold the ending.

Concerning the "rules of engagement", it's better to err on the side of caution. In my view a comment on the state of an unfinished game even in a general sort of way, can give an important clue how to proceed, and hence influence the game. If you know there's a win in the position, you will look for it, or least look for a likely move. If you know there is no win, you might play less than optimal moves that would test the opponent's defences.

The final game position does contain the technical problem (for White) that Black's bishop can defend all his pawns. This leads at once to the realisation that White has to give up his rook for bishop. You can see, then, how a 3rd party assessment would influence the game:
1] - "It's a draw". Conclusion: a rook for bishop exchange leads to a drawn pawn ending. Don't bother (or "let's see if Black can find the draw").
2] - "It's a win". Conclusion: a winning pawn ending is to be had after a rook vs bishop exchange. All we have to do is find the best way of doing this.

heinzkat

5/21/2008
14:29:24
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Message:
i.e. something along the lines (indeed 57. Rf5 was a little bit handier, but still this should be winning without much doubt) 57. Ke4 Bd2 58. Rf5 Bc1 59. Kd4 Bd2 60. Kc4 Be3 61. Rf6+ Kb7 62. Kb5 Kc7 63. Rf7+ Kd6 (63. ... Kc8 64. Kc6 Bc5 65. Rb7 with 66. Rxb6 1-0) 64. Rb7 Ke5 65. Rxb6 1-0

chessnovice

5/22/2008
06:06:05
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...

Message:
White played out the moves that I was thinking of. I agree with heinzkat and ion. White was winning in the position that you showed. Bishop vs. rook is a tough fight as it is, but that difficulty is compounded by the differing pawn structures. It gives the rook lots of opportunities to play with open/half-open files.

ionadowman

5/22/2008
14:10:40
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But consider this...

Message:
... Compare the game position after Black's 56th move:
w
with everything moved 1 rank closer to the White side:
w
How would you assess the latter?
A1.Rf4 Black just about has to acquiesce to the exchange of pieces.
1.Rf4 Kd5 2.Rxf4 gxf4
... but now Black's pawns seem sufficiently advanced to balance White's g-file passer. What ought White to play? Black threatens at some point to advance his b-pawn to create a passer of his own, but also has the potential to bring his king around to take the f-pawn, queening his own f-pawn immediately after White promotes on g8.
Probably 3.Kd3, gaining the opposition, is a good temporizing move, but it's hard to see white getting more than a draw here (I've just been moving wood - well, plastic - around on my chessboard and haven't found a clear-cut win for White yet).
If the exchange of rook for bishop on f4 is insufficient to win, then the alternative is 1.Ke3 has to be tried. Even then, the plan to exchange on g4 won't do, as Black has ...b4! to create a decisive passer of his own.
On balance, given the latter position, White might well offer a draw.
Something to think about, anyway...
Cheers,
Ion

chessnovice

5/22/2008
15:26:45
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...

Message:
I guess I should have refrained from generalizing. But it is unsurprising that shifting everything back a rank makes the game more of a fight for black. It has the double whammy of advancing black's pawns while un-advancing all of white's. It gives black that much more leverage, and a more reasonable opportunity to sacrifice a pawn to allow another to pass.

omus

5/22/2008
15:34:15
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please explain

Message:
can someone please explain how white would have definately won from the final position ??? Thankyou.

ionadowman

5/22/2008
21:08:18
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chessnovice...

Message:
... I hope you didn't think I was disputing your remarks. Actually you were broadly speaking correct. In fact I had begun a posting something on the lines of my last a few days ago then suddenly discovered you can't properly check back your fen diagrams - so I lost the lot. Probably just as well. My second effort a day or so later seems better.

I did think that it was worth looking at the alternate position in order to see what other considerations might emerge from this type of ending. Another consideration might be to suppose Black's bishop was on the light squares. You would really have to set up an altogether different position, though, as White here can pick up the g-pawn.

omus:
I don't think anyone has positively asserted White is "definitely" winning, but that White probably should win. I'll give the line heinzkat suggested, but will follow it further. It's actually quite similar to that which I suggested on the 21st after 57.Rf5. The plans are in fact the same:

57.Ke4 Bd2 (something of a temporizing move. Black doesn't want to lose ground with his king if he can avoid it, and this move "holds the line" as it were)
58.Rf5 Bc1 ...
(the same considerations apply.
Black doesn't want to play 58.Bf4?? owing to 59.Rxf4! gxf4 60.Kd4 [or 60.g5, but let's go with the K-move] Now Black has only a K-move or ...b5.
After, say 61...Kd6 [gaining the opposition, so it's likely the best K-move available] 62.Kc4 Ke5 63.Kb5 Kd4 64.g5 Ke5 [going after the f-pawn is much too slow] 65.g6 Kf6 66.Kxb6 Kxg6 67.Kxa5 Kh5 68.Kb4 Kh4 69.a5 Kg3 70.a6 Kxf3 71.a7 Kg3 72.a8=Q f6 73.Kc3! [...exploiting the fact that Black cannot play 73...f2 on account of 74.Qh1! Any K move instead will be met by 74.Kd3 after which even if the Black pawn does make it safely to the 7th - very unlikely! - it won't save the game.]
And what about 61...b5? 62.axb5+ Kxb5 63.g5! a4 64.g6! Kb4 [else 64...a3 65.Kc3 catches the a-pawn] 65.g7 a3 66.g8+Q stops the a-pawn in its tracks.)
59.Kd4 Bd2
60.Kc4 Be3
61.Rf6+ Kb7
(In a similar position I gave ...Kc7, but this might be better for tempo reasons, namely, so that the bishop can retain touch with both b- and g-pawns.)
62.Kb5 Kc7
63.Rf7+ Kd6
(63...Kc8 64.Kc6 Bc5 - to stop the mate - 65.Rb7 Bf2 (say) 66.Rxb6 Bxb6 67.Kxb6 with a simple win 2 pawns up. After 63...Kc8 this exchange on b6 can't be prevented. 63...Kd6 offers the better chance, however slender)
64.Rb6 Ke5
65.Rxb6 Bxb6
66.Kxb6 Kf4
67.Kxa4 Kxf3
68.Kb4 Kxg4
69.a5 Kh3
70.a6 g4
71.a7 g3
72.a8=Q g2 (a "book" win to White, as follows)
73.Qf3+ Kh2
74.Qf2 Kh1 (forced, as 74...Kh3 loses touch with the queening square.)
75.Qh4+ Kg1
76.Kc3 Kf1
77.Qf4+ Ke2
78.Qg3 Kf1
79.Qf3+ Kg1
80.Kd3 Kh2
81.Qf2 Kh1 (81...Kh3 82.Ke3 wins as well)
82.Qh4+ Kg1
83.Ke3 Kf1
84.Qf2#

I appreciate that for many readers this is well-known stuff, but for those unfamiliar with this kind of "queen vs knight-pawn-on-the-seventh" ending, it is well worth learning! It's easy when you know how.

Cheers,
Ion

fmgaijin

5/23/2008
03:12:35
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Ion: Still an Elementary Win

Message:
Even after moving the pieces back a rank, White still has a pretty easy win. One plan is to (1) Bring the K to b4, (2) Use the R to force the K back a rank, (3) Move the R to the e-file, leaving the B unable to protect both P's at once.

For example, 1.Kd3 Kc6 2.Rf4 Kc5 3.Rf5+ Kc6 4.Kc3 Be2 5.Kb4 Kb6 6.Rf6+ Kc7 7.Re6 Bd3 8.Kc5, etc.

There are a number of ways for White to win as long as he neutralizes any b5 thrust. Of course, Black should play on for a few moves and make sure that White has a basic understanding of how to win with an extra Exchange!

lighttotheright

5/23/2008
13:46:12
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Message:
White can still force the issue with a pawn sac and an exchange sac for better position. The remaining white pawn on the g file beats Black's King to promotion with the support of his white King.

Let's start with Ion's move suggestions, and then deviate on move 59.

57. ... Bd2 58. Rf5 Bc1 ...so far nothing different.

But 59. f4!!

...Bxf4 60.Rxf4 gxf4 61.g5 f3 62.Kxf3 Kd6 Now the King race begins. White simply needs to be careful about timing and distance. Even if Black gains opposition, it is not enough to stop White. 63.g6 Ke6 64.Kg4 Kf6 65.Kh5 Kg7 (Forced) 66. Kg5 Kg8.

If 66. ... Kg8, then 67.Kg6 Kf8--gaining Black the (in this circumstance) meaningless opposition. 68.g7+ forces Black to move his b pawn after ... Kg8 69. Kg6. A basic drawn ending doesn't help because Black still has a move available with the b pawn. 69. ... b5 70.axb5 and now it is a pawn race. 70. ... a4 71.b6 a3 72.b7 a2 73. b8R#. Game over.

If instead Black plays 66. ... Kf8, then Black cannot even delay; the mate is still delivered on move 73.

67.Kf6 Kg8 68.g7 Kh7 69.Kf7 and the g pawn has a paved road to promotion. ... Kh6 70. g8Q Kh5 71. Qg3 b5 72. Kf6 bxa4 73. Qg5#.

fmgaijin

5/23/2008
15:56:59
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Clever But Unnecessary Analysis

Message:
I applaud all of the long variations you guys are trotting out, but for educational purposes, the student should learn the basic concept outlined in my previous note, which is the simplest and most certain way to win these positions. Whenever possible, you should improve your K position and neutralize any counter-thrusts BEFORE giving up the Exchange or the Exchange for a P in these endings. The win in either of these positions is trivial IF you use your R to force the BK back and bring the WK up to attack the bP. From there, you can either win a P by driving the B away or give up the R for the whole house.

"Calculate because you MUST, not because you CAN!"

chessnovice

5/24/2008
07:09:12
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ionadowman

Message:
I definitely didn't take it as if you were disputing my remarks. Your example indeed gives a good example of how subtle differences can change the entirety of a situation.

ionadowman

5/24/2008
15:26:21
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chessnovice...

Message:
... seems I was wrong anyhow! fmgaijin in particular and lighttotheright have added to my knowledge of these types of endings.

To be honest, these kinds of endings are the ones I have had the most trouble with in the past, especially when my opponent has had the extra pawn. Thinking about this reminded me of a protracted endgame I had against one zyla, but, looking back on it, the enemy had a knight and pawn vs my rook. Still, the ending might be of some interest:

b

The first half-dozen moves don't show me in a very good light, as I cast about for a plan:
21...Re8 22.Nd3 Bd5?! 23.Nf4 Bc6 24.e3 Be4+
25.Kc3 Rc8+ 26.Kc4 Bg6 - I was actually hoping White would exchange here!
27.Bc4!? b5!? -
Well, now I have a plan, but it's a very risky one. White gets a Q-side majority that will be a considerable asset to him. But I get to break into White's position at last.
28.Bxb5 Rc2 29.b4 Rxf2 30.h3 Rd2+ 31.Kc3 Rd1
32.a4 Be4 33.a5 g5 34.Ne2 h5 35.Bc4 Bg2
36.h4 gxh4 37.gxh4 Rh1 38.Nf4 Bf3 39.b5 Rxh4
w
The situation is very tense. White is just 4 moves away from promoting, and White's pieces are far off, with the bishop about to be cut off. Can Black even save the game?
40.b6 axb6 41.axb6 Rh1 42.Bd5! Bxd5 43.Nxd5 Rb1
44.Nb4 Rc1+
((=) Black wants to break through with his rook to his own rear rank. Black can prevent this by blocking with the knight, forcing Black to take the draw. Black's plan - an attempt to win the game - has failed. But White doesn't block! Was he playing for the win?)
45.Kd4? Rc8 46.Kd5 h4 47.b7 Re8 -
Cuts the WK off from the K-side. Now the h-pawn is really dangerous.
48.Kd6 h3 49.Nd3 h2 50.Nf2 Kg7 51.Kc7 Kg6
Black doesn't fear White's promotion: the WK is out of the game.
52.Kd7 Rb8 53.Kc7 Rxb7+ 54.Kxb7 Kg5 55.Kc6 Kh4
56.Kd5 Kg3 57.Ne4+ Kf3 58.Kd4 h1=Q 59.Nd2+ Ke2
0-1.
A very lucky win. Until move 45, White had defended very well.
Cheers,
Ion

omus

5/24/2008
15:43:37
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Message:
personally, i would not have resigned the game. Would anyone else have fought on for a while at least ???

ionadowman

5/24/2008
16:45:23
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Yes...

Message:
... I would have done (I presume you are referring to the nathanman22 game). White still would have had to "prove" the win. It is perfectly reasonable to play on, even when you know you are losing, if you feel that you can set problems for your opponent i.e. you have some play left. In the final position, Black has play, and White has to find a winning method. Even if White had a clear cut plan along the lines that have been described (by fmgaijin, lighttotheright and others) Black isn't to know this until it has been played out.

And suppose you were unfamiliar with this kind of ending. Wouldn't you like to be shown how? 'Nuff said.
Cheers,
Ion

fmgaijin

5/24/2008
18:39:12
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Play on? Absolutely!!

Message:
Of course the Exchange-down side should play on in these and most other positions! Since it's a "matter of technique," make your opponent demonstrate that technique, even in a correspondence game. Most of us have saved a game or two during our careers where the opponent either didn't come up with a plan or pushed too hard too soon and let the win slip, so play on until YOU don't feel that you have any chances.

omus

5/25/2008
07:21:38
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would love to....

Message:
I would love to set up pieces as at the position at resignation and play the game out from the weaker black perspective against you guys. Not sure if its possible.

Yes, I know I would lose....but I imagine under a real life situation, say in a club match with time constraints, it could possibly be very frustrating for white.

heinzkat

5/25/2008
12:11:28
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omus

Message:
The line given in my second post of this thread seems quite pompous and seemed straightforward (there is nothing that Black can do to stop White from pushing his King back). I haven't had the time to look at/play out all these other lines given above.

Notice nathanman22 resigned at this early point because he realized he was violating the rules by asking assistance from the crowd at the GK forums - I think he thought he had secured the draw and wanted the confirmation.

ionadowman

5/25/2008
13:07:54
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I didn't realise that...

Message:
... I can understand why someone would ask whilst the game was still in progress: that's when the issue is immediate. One almost feels that there ought to be a way of asking the question that didn't ask for an immediate response, but foreshadowed a discussion once the game had been played out. A pity, really. I do sympathise with nathanman22. Doing the right thing isn't easy.

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