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mazsola 9/15/2004 20:36:54 [ report this post ]	Subject: Show some respect to your opponents Message: I�m a captain for the biggest and probably also the most active team on GK Hungarian wanderers. The task of the captain can be difficult specially when it is an established misbelieve, that some team players choose to play with 5 and 7 days time control because they want to play during long time against the same player. Many captains dislike 5 and 7 day time control and deny challenges. I have some experience with these players, because I have some of them in our team. Please learn to accept that not everybody lives in US, in Canada or in a developed part of Europe. Living in the outback is connected to problems, it can happen that people can�t access the net for several days. We all want to avoid delays, we all captains want to avoid time outs, a good way to achieve it is using longer time control. The disrespect doesn�t come from the time limits, but from the personality of the players, a bozo is a bozo regardless. Let me share with you a game with 3 days time control. The game started 31.01.2004 and still pending. I find this example as best sample for a pathetic behavior of a player and the player�s total lack of respect for his opponent. Please check this one. gameknot.com/chess.pl?bd=1475684 Thank you for reading this add to the GK debate forum. Mazsola Notice from GameKnot: mazsola has lost his/her forum posting privileges as a result of this and other posts (personal insults).
fliszt 9/15/2004 22:23:25 [ report this post ]	mazsola . . . Message: The time limit on team games is not a "U.S., Canada, Europe" versus the rest of the world issue. It is simply a matter of the majority rules, as it should, and the vast majority of team players prefer three days per move, and there are even some calling for two days per move. And many of those that want three days per move (and bear in mind that is just two moves a week) are from all over the world, not at all just from the U.S., Canada and Europe. It is well understood that for various reasons there are players who find it difficult sometimes to meet the three day limits. However, my experience with team play is that a dedicated team player can find a way, if he truly respects his team. If not, if it is just impossible for him to consistently meet the established and popular three day limit, then perhaps team play is not for him. He can still play all the chess here that he wants as private games. Mini-tournaments have fixed time limits. Tournaments have fixed time limits. Leagues have fixed time limits. Why should team games be any different? My contention has been, ever since someone talked Mike into offering varying time limits for team games, that there should be a fixed time limit for all team games, be it two days, three days (as we had and all happily accepted for years before), five days, or even seven days. There should be a poll taken to determine what the majority wants (and my hunch is that it will be three days). At least that way it will simplify the team game arranging process again, as it once was before. As for the game that you cite, that is simply stalling and it has nothing at all to do with team game time limits. Players can, and will, stall no matter what the time limit, only the longer the time limit the longer they can stall. Also, for your information, I have an ongoing team game with a very highly rated, and well known and respected, player here that began on December 29, 2003, and it also has a three day limit, and we are still only at move 51 and not even into the endgame yet. Yes, that is ten months and only 51 moves. That's only about 5 moves a month! Of course, this opponent has postponed frequently and he also nearly always uses his full time allotment for every move. And I have answered every single one of his moves on the same day as he made it and I have not postponed the game even once. And yet we have both spoken cordially throughtout this game and no compaints or gripes have been lodged. He has meticulously followed all GameKnot rules and so I have no reason to complain or gripe. Some players, especially the great ones, just play slowly. Sometimes we must accept that fact. But we can learn from it too. If a player can, following all GameKnot rules, drag a three day per move game on for ten months and longer then why on earth would any team player need five days, or seven days, per move for a game?
leo_london 9/16/2004 02:02:50 [ report this post ]	fliszt Message: Well said. The best post I have read on this subject...and there have been many.
wanttaja 9/16/2004 02:42:10 [ report this post ]	In my team Message: I�m a captain in the second biggest team and also... In my team: "We do prefer to arrange team games with 5 days per move in the future but there will be many exceptions. Favourite time limits: 3 days: Afrim, Doomslayer, Kane66, Keijo, Micaxe, Rapa, Spanyel, Taikaviitta, Tesomator, Tonttiaivo 5 days: Elmeri, Harakka, Heikki, Hokkaido, Holierthanthou, Jouni, Juho, Maca, Mikaelkarvajalka, Mikesavage, Noonoo, Olavi, Ristoolavi, Samipar, Vahann-1, Woelchen 7 days: Ezyrider, Ismo, Pelikan, Pinball, Telaroki, Ramarao, Ruzina, Serkan00, Wanttaja 3-7 days: Ilari, Jerrylaine, Kirsu, Laurix, Louse, Mikaha, MrBishop, Mwandishi, Nivek6, Petepawn, Propagandalf, Ranger, Raton, Roosna, Touhoankka, Totte, Viukkis * = 5 days is ok too." There are plenty of reasons why some players do want to have longer time limits. 1. For example ICCF players are used to them 2. Searious _human_ chess players do love them 3. There are busy working family men and women having a life outside GK 4. Some people are travelling a lot and can't always use their holidays when needed 5. Some players don't have daily internet access and so on... Why on earth can't you respect that? Anyone is still free to play with 3 days if wanted. I'm not asking to stop that :) br, wanttaja, Team Finland & EU/USA Friends
jeffreydot 9/16/2004 03:22:43 [ report this post ]	I agree with wanttaja... Message: As mazola pointed out the time a game lasts depends upon attitudes, one, and as I saw from the game fliszt is playing, personal life and work etc. Reguardless, games w/ seven day limits tend to last just as long as three day limits. If you run into a person who is OBVIOUSLY being a bad sport about drawing out a loss, then you can just avoid playing said person in the future, by letting your captain know. If you are a team that is DEAD SET on playing really quick games, so that you can level quicker, and you come across a team that is DEAD SET on playing seven day games....just don't play them. It would be good to be able to play everyone, but some things just dont work out as well as we could hope. We have the option to compromise both ways, but don't take the option away for those who actually need it. It seems pretty selfish, as nobody cares to look at another's perspective. Thank you! jeffreydot
mazsola 9/16/2004 09:43:56 [ report this post ]	reply to fliszt and leo-london. What did he say? Message: I�m happy I made this add to the forum, but I would more point out that is about 2 different subjects! Firstly, the 5 and 7 days time control. Secondly a disrespectful behavior. I am surprised that my fellow captain fliszt is back to his old arguments. I want to make it clear that I highly dislike his selection of words, dedicated players � they and only they show respect for the team. I will also remind him about the words he used in a private message �serious players play with 3 days time control�. Make your own conclusion of fliszt�s words, all those who play with 5 and 7 days time control aren�t dedicated, are disrespectful to their team and also they aren�t serious. I prefer players, who choose longer time control to avoid time outs, because time out is showing disrespect to all the fellow team members. The experience I have with our team members, that none of those who choose to play with longer then 3 days time control want to play GK�s tournaments. They don�t enjoy them because they know about the slim chance to fulfill their commitment. I call it respect for the idea of the tournament, respect for the opponents and portion of good judgement and common sense. The dedicated businessman running a factory with 250 employees, travelling lot due his business, he firstly makes sure that his business is going well and his family is happy, secondly when all the important things are done he also gives time to make his moves on GK. He is dedicated, he respectful and a very serious person, giving time to everything of importance. I believe we have lot of players who don�t have anything else to do just play chess. Not they run the world�s prosperity. GK had 3 days time control, but they realized that it didn�t fit all the needs and introduced 5 and 7 days time control. I am sure it was to suit the majority of the player and not the majority of fliszt�s minority. I prefer to trust the GK management�s judgement and not a noisy �majority�. Maybe fliszt is a dedicated player, he is skilled I know that, but please explain to me, what kind of majority rules are you talking about, I don�t recall any voting on this subject. I�m born in a former dictatorship. I�m old enough to remember Stalin, we remember Hitler, they both were talking about the will and support of the majority. The majority, they never dared to ask. I�m allergic against all kind of self-promoted majority spokesmen. Mister my advice to you, back off, because you are walking on thin ice. You use big words in very small workshop. The subject No 2 is the issue of showing respect for the opponents. The game I cited is 1 of many similar games, but I chose it because it is played by a so called dedicated, skilled player and most important by a team captain. I have difficult to trust his skills. When the player started to play on GK, he suffered lot of lost from a very average skilled players, suddenly after 3 months on GK he turned to Bobby Fisher, his last 300 games, he didn�t loose more then 3 games, all to +2000 players. I�m 57 years old, I started to play chess when I was 7. That person is a fraud, you better believe me. I don�t believe in Santa Claus anymore and I�m not stupid, I�m not naive. I know precisely what it takes to go from 1500 in rating to 2000. The game I cited is gameknot.com/chess.pl?bd=1475684 an example for disrespect, played by a 2096 rated tool gameknot.com/chess.pl?bd=2131011 a game played by a 1338 player who understood, that it�s time to give up. I would like to send my regards to wanttaja and feffreydot for their add and for using common sense, because whatever we say, it is all about that, using decent behavior and common sense. Hungarian wanderers / team captain mazsola (Henry) Notice from GameKnot: mazsola has lost his/her forum posting privileges as a result of this and other posts (personal insults).
chuckventimiglia 9/16/2004 11:32:54 [ report this post ]	It is not good practice to.... Message: disclose what is being said in a private conversation. For instance, you said "I will also remind him about the words he used in a private message �serious players play with 3 days time control�. " A private conversation is no longer private when it is disclosed. It normally takes consensus of both parties to agree to disclose the contents of a "private" conversation. Seeing this I may think twice before sending "private" notes to a person that may disclose it to the public here on GK or anywhere. Chuck
wanttaja 9/16/2004 12:26:17 [ report this post ]	Let's take it easy Message: Chuck, I'm sorry to here that you are leaving us, aren't you? As far as I know mr fliszt is a real gentleman. English is his mother language and I guess he is using colourful expressions just to make clear his point of view. Let's not react too emotionally. It's just chess - just for fun. br, wanttaja
chuckventimiglia 9/16/2004 12:35:40 [ report this post ]	No I am not leaving..... Message: GK. I am no longer going to be a team captain. GK is a great chess site and I will remain here playing chess. I am a lifetime member and I hope that means many more years. :-) I just want to play in the tourneys, minis and [ersonal challenges. GK is too good a chess site to leave. Thanks for asking!! Chuck
fliszt 9/16/2004 12:43:14 [ report this post ]	Thank you . . . Message: Thank you, leo_london, for your support and thank you, wanttaja, for your calming words. It would be nice if players, and captains alike, could agree to disagree with dignity and respect for each other and still remain chessfriends. Wamttaja and I have done just that, on various issues, for quite a long while. He is a true gentleman and a scholar.
mazsola 9/16/2004 15:24:51 [ report this post ]	to fliszt Message: You certainly need all the support you can get. The person who calls opponets not serious, not dignified not dedicated, has consumed all right to demand a dignified discussion. You put the level for the discussion not me. You have no idea of dignity. You admitted that I have right. You were not mentioned in my first add to the debate forum. We had our private discussion despite of that you went to the war path. Yes Ilkka (wanttaja) is a genntleman. It doesn't makes you to one.
mazsola 9/16/2004 15:35:50 [ report this post ]	chuckventimiglia Message: Yes correct a private discussion is private. We closed the discussion day before my add to the forum fliszt admitted that I had a point He understands me I have the message there just past it to the public. I started a discussion because I wanted to know what other has to say about it. I was surprised to find fliszt on the war path. The guy is either senile or not trustworthy. He is talking about the rules of majority, did you vote for him, because I didn't and nobody else did. Check first the source first before you make a general judgement. Notice from GameKnot: mazsola has lost his/her forum posting privileges as a result of this and other posts (personal insults).
olean_don 9/16/2004 17:02:05 [ report this post ]	above subject Message: I myself prefer 3 day matches as to 5-7, but will play those time limits as need be. As for those that take their time in a losing position maybe not the best, but have that right. We all have opinions as is are right here. Calling someone senile here is insulting and against forum rules. Should check that out before saying much more. That is as much bad sportsmanship as what you complain about.
gm_paz 9/16/2004 17:34:26 [ report this post ]	Let�s see Message: I have various points to take out here... 1- I am very truly sad that Chuck leaves team captainship... 2- I have played great team matches (or arranged them) with both mazsola, fliszt, wanttaja... and turned out to be amazing games, fun, and friendly... I can understand both point of views and partly agree... 3 times per move is my personal favourite, but I have some teammates that I would prefer to let them play at 5 or 7 days... It�s great to have those options... As we are team captains we can all talk and arrange what suits us best. 3- Stalling is something that happens often, and I don�t always relate it to time control... I really dislike that practice and usually comment it to my rival in case that�s happening... But while there�s still some hope, if you want to try your options, go ahead... 4- I found and made great friends here and met quite interesting people... but as anywhere, we may not like everybody and maybe not everybody will like us... as in real life... we�ll avoid each other and won�t play again... 5- As for the other issues exposed in the forum, I will prefer to abstain to make a statement, because it�s not my position to do so; I was invited to this topic to talk about chess and team matches... Regards to all Guillermo. Team Captain of Sinergia2003
kai_sim 9/16/2004 17:47:34 [ report this post ]	Message: why all of a sudden are you guys getting off topic now? why are you calming down when nothing is to clam? don't forget, even if people seem upset, they should be allowed to have their own opinion, their own will and free demands. we are having a discussion here! HEEELLOOOOOOO WAKE UP!!!! it showes that this topic is alife! adults are speaking here! sometimes a little louder which shouldn't be handeled as an offense... phew! so much about that... now, to give some gas back into the fire, i would like to say that i totaly agree with mazsola said and i'm happy that the forums start to become alive again (AND NO I'M NOT BEATING DEAD HORSES AND NO I DON'T WANT A SOCIAL FORUM WHICH I NEVER HAD). i'm captain of one of the youngest chess teams here on GK and we established a stable team rating that reflects most of the times in the top 10 (this introduction wasn't nescesary, but became some kind of trend in recent posts ;p). i've recently had an issue like this: one of my team players was asking for help with one of her oponent because he's taking "all the time in the word" for the last few moves being in both games more than a queen behind but is being seen on GK several times a day. i calmed her down and we contacted the other team captain who promissed to contact his player to see what he can do. the player then agreed that the games are lost anyways and he resigned. my intentions where not to force the other player to resign, my player would have been fine if the other player would have moved once a day (he was online at least once a day and said he doesn't have time to move...). she has a limited amount of games and loves fast games. she allready finished at least 20 games the SAME DAY THEY STARTED. team games in her experience take much longer than expected, but we have exceptions here as well. first the other player did what some call "unsportsman like" and then he became the gentleman of the day after talking to him nice. maybe some other players should try that as well. by all respect i was trying to imagine how long a "7 days team match" will last, if both players move within the last day (3 years?). i was trying to imagine how happy a team captain is who has a team consisting out of those players only, if the players stay as long on GK as the matches last they should have a great game by then... i don't think that team matches should go longer than 3 days per move (in my eyes better 2) and 5 seems acceptable. i understand the point that some players don't have regular access to internet connections, but here comes the point. you now have to be very careful in reading and understanding this (pardon my bad english please don't take offense): i understand if a player lives in let's say africa and wants 7 days per move for his 10 games because he got internet access on saturdays only, he showes respect to himself the team and the game, but if a player says he has only time to play 7 days per move but playes 50-100 games at the same time and is online 7 hrs every day, i don't understand and would suggest to the player to cut down to 20 matches to see if he still doesn't have enough time. or the ones that take 5+ team matches only, but play in 5 GK tourneys at the same time with 2 days per move. i am happy that mike was willing to offer some more time for the team matches for the ones in NEED (the option should be open for the players with 7+ days regular matches only). i would also like to see 2 days per move like in the GK tourneys, but thats unwritten future... what i also don't like and gets me a little mad, is that i was even getting private msg's about bruenetti! why don't you guys just leave him alone or address issues public instead of talking behind his back? he has the full right to move at any time and to resign, win or lose any match whenever he wants. he might has his reasons and just snapped, you never know what conversations where in the same board before that may have upsetted him and now he uses his right to finish the game. did anyone dare to ask him and posted the answer into the forum as well??? i don't think so! fliszt you remember when we used to have our private war? when you the started to addmit to a good post of mine, that i have a good point, that you agree and so on? we then had a private war again, for which i took hours of my time to explain you my point and we then decided to get off from the "path of war" you declared and have a fresh start? you then started the war again, because i forgot to say thank you for a match up of yours (where i knew that it will be 4 points for your team allready!)? i fogot to say the usual stuff i say to all team captains like: "thank you for the team games, we whish you all good luck... and so on..." remember what you said to me? i would love to post it here, but it's a private msg so i can't. the general topic was telling me that i'm "unsportsmanlike" and "no gentleman" at all, because you degraded yourself to set up a team match with us and didn't say thank you for it! I SIMPLY FORGOT! because i was setting up like 5 other matches the same day! i allways say thank you and whish everyone good luck! i'm allways friendly in my private msg's as well, you are not! oh, by the way you FAILED TO SAY THANK YOU AS WELL! i could have easy noticed and said something liek: "and the same to you guys!" THAT is as you call it "unsportsmanlike"! (warning: DO NOT private msg's regarding this again, i'll not accept from you anymore and delete it right away, if you start to apologize again i'll publish it this time in the forum!) you proved in the past that you are not "gentleman like" and as some one else said "not trust worthy" (you had a fight with FIVE of my old team mates from the previous team AT THE SAME TIME regarding DIFFERENT issues!) i'll now come to the end: I AM VERY DISAPOINTED THAT mazsola GOT BANNED FOR POINTING OUT PERSONAL FAILURES OF OTHERS, FOR ADRESSING ISSUES AND TAKING THE TIME TO WRITE DOWN WHATS BOTHERING HIM! i think his second post was a very excelent post and we are no diplomats. i'm sad that as soon as players start to tell their opinion they get banned, because "the others" have more friends who yell louder and start "group reporting" for banning the one who dares to speak free. best regards kai at this point i would also like to point out that i would like to have for GK: - A LEGAL DISCLAIMER IN ORDER TO ENTER THE FORUMS! - AMNESTY FOR EVERYONE WHO GOT EVER BANNED FROM THE FORUMS! - NO MORE BANNING (except for insults and bad words)! - ONE WARNING BEFORE THE FIRST BAN! - TO BE ABLE TO SET MY TEAM GAMES TO ZERO IN MY PREFERENCES - THE OPTION 2 DAYS PER MOVE FOR TEAM GAMES Notice from GameKnot: kai_sim has lost his/her forum posting privileges as a result of this post (personal insults).
lm3ut 9/16/2004 19:19:48 [ report this post ]	my opinions Message: I was invited to take a part in this discussion, and will only address the issues that this debate was started on, except for one point. Why can't we all get along? Even with people I disagree with and dislike, that doesn't mean I should lose respect for them. Why can't we agree to disagree? We are all here, we all share a common goal and love for the game. To me, no player here is bigger than the game. Everyone should have the right to say how they feel about other people, they shouldn't be banned for that; however, everyone who posts should take a higher road and not make disparaging comments about other people. It should not be against the rules, but it should be against our law, as people. (There is a word for it that we talked about in my Government class, but I forgot what the word is.) It's where morality or God's law is above the law of the land. Why can't we, as players and lovers of chess, make our own ethical laws that, if aren't obeyed, are just frowned upon. I am all for the rules being very loose, people can say whatever they wish according to GK's rules. BUT we should all take a higher road and not say bad things about each other because it isn't the right thing to do. As far as the 3,5,7 team game time control. I personally only like to give my team 3 days per move. People who time-out will still do so in 5 or 7 day limits. It will just take longer to time-out, for MOST of the people. As for the select group of people who have limited access to the internet, and can only play 5 or 7 day games, they are in a bit of a predicament. 5 days should be sufficient for them to be able to play though. If a game starts on monday, 5 days would time them out on saturday. If they can move one time from that time, let's say wednesday. If the other player moves immediately, they will have the weekend to balance out the time, time is added on saturday's and sunday's right? 48 hours should be added, as I understand it. Then they should be able to get on, and another question I have: What is this only get on the internet once a week? I have never heard of that, but I'm young and probably ignorant on these discussions. I, personally, have no problem with 2-5 day time controls. (Which someone already stated, sorry I can't remember who it was.) As for the "serious player" argument, this is a chess site! No one will win money if they win a game! There's no prize for winning anything, except pride. Pride isn't truly a prize though. I believe that people should be proud of themselves no matter what, if someone truly beats you and you played well, you did your best, the other player simply beat you, you should be very proud. If I were to advance to the final round of something and end up in fourth, that should mean the world to me, just because I didn't win first doesn't mean anything. All first place is, is a couple words in your profile saying "you won first place in the whatever GK tournament". That's not important, it's really not. That was way off topic, sorry for the tangent. As for people timing out on purpose, all it shows is lack of maturity for that player. Simply ignoring them and not playing him/her again is a great idea. No matter what you do in life you will experience and have to deal with people who are immature and lack dignity. Any person who purposely tries to delay an obviously lost game, is simply disrespectful. A lot of players will keep playing lost games in hope for a blunder to be made by the opponent. What is wrong with resigning a lost game and simply admitting, "you beat me". That is a very honorable thing to do, and you should be proud of yourself for having the respect to do so. Just avoid bitter end players and all will be well. It IS their right to take their time moving, and just let it go. One less game for you to have to move in. It will end, eventually, and if you are already winning, you can feel glad about the victory. Regards, -Mike (lm3ut) -Captain of Mikey's Crew
olean_don 9/16/2004 19:29:27 [ report this post ]	Im3ut Message: very well put. Totally agree. Disagree without the name calling
gameknot_com 9/16/2004 20:35:52 [ report this post ]	Message: Closing this message thread for new posts as it is turning into another who can insult whom the best contest...

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