| From | Message |
yanm
11/22/2006
23:23:14
[ report this post ] |
 Subject: Consultation chess proof of concept, basbos+yanm
Message:
In this thread, basbos and yanm will discuss about their game against far1ey and ccmcacollister.
The game can be followed on board #6240655.
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yanm
11/22/2006
23:33:42
[ report this post ] | bookmark tip
Message:
For my comfort, I added this thread to my GameKnot bookmark -> gameknot.com. I think this might a good idea since it avoids the necessity to see all threads in this forum. One nice side-effect is that I'm less tempted to look at the other team forum :D
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yanm
11/22/2006
23:38:33
[ report this post ] | #1
Message:
I almost exclusively play 1.e4, and my answer to 1...e5 is either 2.f4, when my opponent rating is not too high, or 2.Nf3 otherwise.
What's your preferences/opinion??
PS I propose to put #x for the message subject where x stands for the move number
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basbos
11/23/2006
18:26:19
[ report this post ] | #1
Message:
Actually I'm a 1.d4 player :) and recently started to play the Reti 1.Nf3 . However , I have no problem with 1.e4 . I heard once that 1.e4 deserves "!!". all what I fear is 1...c5 from the other team .
To conclude I vote for 1.e4!!
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yanm
11/24/2006
00:01:13
[ report this post ] | #1.e4
Message:
So, I played 1.e4.
And now let us wait and see what their answer will be. However, from far1ey past games I can say that 1...c5 is quite likely (he seems to love the Sicilian). On the other hand, ccmcacollister plays a variety of answers to 1.e4 (e.g. French, Caro-Kann, 1...e5, etc.). Still, I think that in all likelihood we will have to battle against the Sicilian.
So in this case, I propose 2.Nf3 (to stay conventional) or the 2.Na3 (to be trendy). Any other ideas? Since their are stronger (but not quite very strong players) we should stick to a less known opening line (like the 2.Na3), what do you think?
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basbos
11/24/2006
06:59:38
[ report this post ] | #2
Message:
I think using conventional moves in correspondence chess is not bad at all , since we can use our opening books along the opening phase . I may agree with you if it was an OTB game . Novelties in OTB are really surprising and may destruct one's confidence.
I had a look in 1900+ database here in GK and found that 2.Na3 surprisingly gives good results for white , but to be honest I can't understand why!
I simply prefer 2.Nf3 since it challenges the center in a clear way.
If you have another comments about 2.Na3 , please let me know about its advantage.
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yanm
11/26/2006
23:29:28
[ report this post ] | #2
Message:
There are several threads on 2.Na3 on the Web but no real theory behind it at the moment. If I understand well, the knight on Na3 can jump to interesting square (e.g. c2 or c4) but you don't have to commit to a choice early (thus leaving possibilities for later). Unfortunately, you apparently need to know several openings to do well with 2.Na3.
So lets go for 2.Nf3 then. Except, if you've other propositions?
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basbos
11/27/2006
13:11:54
[ report this post ] | #2
Message:
ok , let's go for the traditional 2.Nf3
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basbos
11/28/2006
18:01:46
[ report this post ] | #3
Message:
If 2...d6 was played , will we stick to 3.d4 to operate on the d file ?
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yanm
11/29/2006
23:41:59
[ report this post ] | #3
Message:
Yes, I think 3.d4 is a good idea in this case.
Then what are their options? Apparently, 3...cxd4 is by far the most played move. And after that, 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6. At this point, it will be the Najdorf. Any tips or general pieces of advice about this defence? I've found the following link with Google -> chess.about.com but I haven't had the time yet to look at it. I will do that during this weekend if the opposing team moves toward this direction, that is!
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yanm
12/01/2006
00:39:07
[ report this post ] | #3
Message:
So they played 2...d6 as we expected. I will thus answer 3.d4 as agreed. Additionally, since this line most probably leads to the Najdorf, do I set conditional moves for 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6?
I'm not very familiar with this line, and because you're a 1.d4 player I guess it is also your case, right? Maybe we should investigate the theory behind the Najdorf before committing to more moves... and report our findings here, what do you think?
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yanm
12/02/2006
02:27:44
[ report this post ] | #3
Message:
I did play 3.d4, and they automatically (conditional moves) with 3...cxd4! So we are heading to the Najdorf that we want it or not. I presume they are more familiar with this opening that we are, so what are our plan for our sixth move?
According to the website given above, 5...a6 prepare to things: b5 and e5. Accordingly, our sixth move can do one of things. Either it prevents e5 or it allows e5. Moves falling in the first category are 6.Bg5 and 6.Bc4 while move allowing e5 are 6.Be2 or 6.Be3. The moves preventing e5 are answered by black by e6.
I'm going to look these variations in more details, and then propose a plan. If you have any pieces of advice or any plan, please proceed ;)
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basbos
12/02/2006
19:00:14
[ report this post ] | #4
Message:
4.Nxd4 has no alternatives now. Personally I'm a Sicillian Najdorf player , so I'm familiar with it to some extent. They'll intend to castel short and I think we should castel long . Then a race will start to aggregate the pieces in front of the opponent's king.Typical games show that white always launch a pawn storm on the king side, while black start to advance his a,b pawns along the queen side with the help of a rook on the c file. This is a summary about my knowledge in the Najdorf.
However I'll looke deeply in the position after 4.....a6 and post later ,today or tomorrow.
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yanm
12/04/2006
23:34:56
[ report this post ] | #5
Message:
They replied 4...Nf6, and we continued to the Najdorf with 5.Nc3. In all likelihood they are going to answer with 5...a3.
Do you have an example of a good game of a pawn storm after white castle long and black castle short? I just want to have a look at it before going this direction (it sounds to be fairly tactical and trap heavy games)
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yanm
12/05/2006
01:57:01
[ report this post ] | #6
Message:
Najdorf, here we are: they answered 5...a3.
Here is the +1900 GK database: -> gameknot.com
Here are our choices:
* preventing e5: 6.Bg5 (1124 games) or 6.Bc4 (247 games),
* allowing e5: 6.Be2 (549 games) or 6.Be3 (809 games).
According to the same database, white obtained the best results with either 6.Bg5 or 6.Be3. The worst results were obtained with 6.Bc4. However, I'm now playing a game with 6.Bc4 and it does seem to be that bad ;-)
If I've time, I will try my hand at some analysis tonight and post the results here.
<<< snip from above
Do you have an example of a good game of a pawns storm after white castled long and black castled short? I just want to have a look at it before going in this direction (it sounds to be fairly tactical games)
>>>
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basbos
12/06/2006
07:19:01
[ report this post ] | #6
Message:
I vote for 6.Be3 , since allowing e5 is not a problem at all . Actually after e5 the d pawn becomes a liability for black .
6.Be3 accelerates casteling long. While Be2 ,In my humble opinion , is very passive at this point . If we intend to castle long then we should concetrate now on developing the queen side.
About an example of a good game of pawn storm , I'll make the search and post later tonight.( I remember I have examined an impressive game from the great artist Bobby Fisher)
P.S. Sorry for being late in posting ,the hectic life took me for a period away from chess , but I'm back now :)
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basbos
12/07/2006
02:50:15
[ report this post ] | #6
Message:
What is your vote for move 6?
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yanm
12/07/2006
04:39:15
[ report this post ] | #6
Message:
Ah sorry, I was still hesitating between 6.Bg5 and 6.Be3. I guess it all depends where we want to castle. Actually, I'm not that positive about castling long because I think that the game will become fairly tactical then, and the other team ought to be superior in that domain. However, since you prefer 6.Be3 and you're the one familiar with this line, lets play 6.Be3!
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basbos
12/07/2006
07:47:37
[ report this post ] | #6
Message:
I know the game will be a very sharp one , but we up for the challenge , or what do you think :)
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yanm
12/07/2006
07:50:34
[ report this post ] | #6
Message:
Of course, we are up to the challenge ;-)
And think I hope that two players together are likely to avoid many more tactical pitfalls than a single player... So lets fight _and_ win!
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yanm
12/10/2006
23:29:02
[ report this post ] | #7
Message:
So they played 6...e6
Now, we should either consolidate or e4 pawn with 7.f3 or move our queen out-of-the-way to prepare queen-side castling.
What do you think?
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yanm
12/12/2006
00:59:04
[ report this post ] | #7
Message:
After looking at the position a bit more, I'm in favour of 7.f3. There is the position after this move
The FEN string: rnbqkb1r/1p3ppp/p2ppn2/8/3NP3/2N1BP2/PPP3PP/R2QKB1R b KQkq - 0 7.
As I said, 7.f3 strengthens our pawns' chain. Additionally, we do not yet commit to a position for the Queen or the white Bishop, we still have the options to castle long or short, and we prepare a possible King-side pawns' storm. They are likely to answer 7...b5 and so to somehow limit our white bishop range.... What do you think?
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basbos
12/13/2006
03:13:33
[ report this post ] | #7
Message:
I was not sure whether f3 or Qd2 is the best , but your argument is a right one. In most Najdorf games , both moves are made but the diffrerence is in the order .
What confused me for some time is two games betwwen Anand(White) and Kasparov(black) in which Anand played 7.g4 in the najdorf variation . but I think this will be a little bit risky in our game , so let's go for the solid 7.f3
Here are links for the games
-> www.chessgames.com
-> www.chessgames.com
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yanm
1/30/2007
04:42:06
[ report this post ] | #8
Message:
Finally back!! I hope you had a nice beginning of year!?
I propose 8.g4, so it transposes into the first game you gave above. Any other ideas? BTW, I'm quite unfamiliar with this position. Have you any guidelines about it?
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yanm
1/30/2007
04:44:40
[ report this post ] | question
Message:
What is the danger of being swept away on our queen side? For example, 8...b4 looks threatening to me :/
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yanm
2/02/2007
04:55:51
[ report this post ] | I played 8.g4...
Message:
... to avoid timing out.
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yanm
2/08/2007
08:43:46
[ report this post ] | I played 9.Qd2
Message:
Seems the most popular and successful option according to -> gameknot.com
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yanm
2/15/2007
23:02:30
[ report this post ] | Duh, I did timeout
Message:
Here is the board of the reinstated game board #6795271
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yanm
3/15/2007
05:59:17
[ report this post ] | 10. O-O-O
Message:
Basbos has left GK. So, I'm left all alone, and waiting on a new partner, but maybe raskerino will join me to fight the force of the darker side...
black to play
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raskerino
3/15/2007
06:16:09
[ report this post ] |
Message:
I'd be happy to play- you should know though, that I have absolutely no experience in the najdorf.
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yanm
3/15/2007
06:35:44
[ report this post ] | Cool
Message:
Me neither, I've no clue on what's going on... so that's not a problem, and I guess we are going to enter the middle game so opening theory is not that important :D
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raskerino
3/15/2007
18:52:26
[ report this post ] |
Message:
So I've given various GM games a look and the main move (and most sensible to my eyes) is 10...Bb7 where the most common response is 11.h4 which I like, storming on the kingside is always fun. The main response is 11... b4, and all the other responses seem geared to either make instant threats or defend black's kingside, is our attack really that dangerous? Or does black have an untried option in 11... Rc8: where we can't blow open the kingside quite yet as 12.g5 hxg5 13.hxg5 hangs a rook and we probably need the preparatory 12.Rg1. I just don't see why black has to make such a commital move as 11... b4, do you have any ideas why this might be? Anyways, back to 11... b4 12.Nce2 and 12.Na4 are the responses in the GK database, 12.Na4 is more common, but from the GM games I've looked at 12.Nce2 where the knight will come to the kingside via g3 or f4 seems more natural than bringing the knight to the edge. Anand has favored this move in the past, but more recently chosen 12.Na4, I wonder why? Maybe black gets too many attacking chances with the knight on the kingside (with 12.Nce2), what do you think?
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yanm
3/19/2007
06:40:06
[ report this post ] | Hmm
Message:
I gave some thoughts to your analysis and agree with it. Our plan is quite clear: we want to storm the King side; first with pawns then with something deadlier. With that in mind, 10...Bb7 11.h4 b4 12. Nce2 fits much better than 12. Na4.
Now concerning your rhetoric question about Black committing itself with 11...b4. Well, I think it's not merely an instant threat as they are trying to building pressure on our Queen side. I believe they have plenty of tactical opportunities there. And surely, doubling their rooks on the c file is one of them. In my opinion, they can use a score of instant treats to gradually build up a powerful Queen side counter-attack. I played twice this opening and was totally swept away by Black counter-attack. In both cases, I mishandled b4...
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yanm
3/19/2007
06:47:13
[ report this post ] | Ah I forgot about 12.Na4
Message:
>> Anand has favored this move in the past, but more recently chosen 12.Na4, I wonder why? Maybe black gets too many attacking chances with the knight on the kingside (with 12.Nce2), what do you think?
Possibly, but I propose that if we don't understand a GM's move, it's better not to try to emulate it... I'm more comfortable with 12.Nce2 that with 12.Na4 since I think that I understand the former but not the latter :D
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raskerino
3/19/2007
06:58:05
[ report this post ] |
Message:
I'd love to see a game with that, to get more sense of what we'll be dealing with.
Going back to 12.Nce2 d5 is the main response in GM games, where there are two moves for white 13.Ng3 (played by Nunn) and 13.Bh3 as played by Anand, here's an Anand win:
-> www.chessgames.com
I looked at chessgames opening explorer and it seems that Na4 gets 53.1% wins for white when black gets a mere 20.8%. Nce2 on the other hand gives white 30.8% and black 50% so maybe there's some issue in the Nce2 line.
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raskerino
3/19/2007
07:14:24
[ report this post ] |
Message:
But yeah, we should go with the move we see sense with, you're right.
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yanm
3/19/2007
07:33:41
[ report this post ] | The games in questions
Message:
me vs blatman --- board #5438673 (counter-attack)
me vs superju --- board #5737646 (well, I got crushed but hey the guy is quite a bit higher rated than me)
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raskerino
3/20/2007
17:21:56
[ report this post ] |
Message:
While 10... Bb7 looks most logical here's a quick looks at alternatives:
10... Be7 11.Nc6 Qc7 12.Nxe7 Kxe7 and we dominate.
10... Qa5 11.Nb3 seems fairly logical
10... Nc5 11.Ndxb5! utilizes the pin on the d file to excellent effect.
10... Ne5 and there are a number of moves I like the look of:
a) 11.h3?! with the idea of f4 winning tempo while keeping g4 covered.
b) 11.h4 is the natural move.
c) 11.f4?!! Nexg4 12.Ndxb5 axb5 13.e5 Nxe3 14.Qxe3 Nd7 15.exd6 where white should have compensation in d6 pawn, the e file and the hanging pawn on b5. This idea looks WAY over the top, but here's a few more lines:
14... Nd5 15.Nxd5 exd5 16.exd6+ Kd7 17.Bxb5+ Kxd6 18.Rxd5+!! Kc7 (Kxd5 19.Rd1#) 19.Rxd8 and white wins easily.
14... Ng4 15.Qf3 hits rook and knight
So it looks like 14.Qxe3 looks winning, and I don't see any alternative on move 13 for black. Also there doesn't seem to be an alternative to 11...Nexg4. So either I'm missing something completely (or being over optimistic about a variation), or black can't play 12... axb5. I don't think it's worth doing more analysis on a line that most likely won't show up, but it looks like a fascinating sacrifice. 11.h4 is probably the best answer, but moves like Rg1, Be2 and Bg2 probably deserve a look.
I the above sacrificial line is probably completely worthless, but in an open position I'm drawn to wild attacks, and in this case I don't think there's an obvious refutation.
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yanm
3/21/2007
02:32:15
[ report this post ] | 11.f4
Message:
I fear that 12.Ndxb5 leaves our a2 pawn unprotected and since the a file is opened after 12...axb5 we need to play 13.a3 or we are in big trouble. And after 13. a3 b4, it also begins to stink for us. Or am I missing something?
I am also a big fan of all out and wild attacks but our position asks for some more build up before that. I guess that 11.h4 fits better the general plan. Anyway we have 3 days of thought before moving, so if you get other ideas...
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raskerino
3/21/2007
08:25:02
[ report this post ] |
Message:
Hey, they actually made that move!
I agree that 11.h4 is probably best. I agree that the a pawn does get too weak with the lines I gave. The thing is, this move 10... Ne5 is practically NEVER played while 10... Bb7 is played at least 90% of the time. If we play 11.h4 then after 11... Bb7 the lines have transposed. So I'd like to find (or at least look for) some move that exploits this strange move. So what could the advantages be of Bb7 over Ne5? Well for one, we have a nasty pin along the d file if our knight gets out of the way. With the knight on d7 we wouldn't have that pressure. Second, there is less pressure on the e4 square so maybe an f pawn push is more justified as we don't have to keep it on defensive duty. Third, the rook and queen have not yet been connected. This train of thought led me to the wild sacs above, but maybe there's some real way to utilize the disadvantages of 10... Ne5. However, if there is I can't find it. I vote for 11.h4!
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yanm
3/26/2007
06:43:40
[ report this post ] | A possible reason behind 10...Ne5
Message:
Maybe they want to exchange their Knight for one of our Bishops (after 11...Nc4)? I know that it's a bit late to seek a reason for their previous move but I wonder...
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raskerino
3/26/2007
08:01:49
[ report this post ] |
Message:
Yeah, we'll have to take back with 12.Bxc4 if they do. I'm not too worried about that as our dark squared bishop seems more important then the light squared one. We'll have to attack quick though or the b file could become dangerous. I think possible moves they might make are ...Nc4, Bb7, Be7 or b4. I think 11... Nc4 12.Bxc4 bxc4 13.Rg1 seems natural. 11... Bb7 12.Rg1 looks fine too. I think we've basically decided that 11... b4 should be met with 12.Nce2 where the knight will head to g3 or f4. Finally 11... Be7 and once again I think the best move is 12.Rg1. What do you think?
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yanm
3/28/2007
01:47:00
[ report this post ] | 11...b4
Message:
So here it is, they played the 'dreaded' counter-attacking pawn push b4.
I agree that 12.Nce2 is good here as it will support our pawns' storm on the King side. However, the only game in the GK follows with 12.Nb1. I don't like this backward move and in the continuation the Knight does not play a role until very late in the game. Still, we should consider whether the knight is needed for the defence of our King or free to be used in an attack. In any case, the current candidate moves are 12.Na4 and 12.Nce2 with preference for the latter until proven otherwise.
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raskerino
3/28/2007
07:44:45
[ report this post ] |
Message:
So here's what I see as the main line with Na4: 12.Na4 Qa5 13.b3 where if I'm not mistaken there's a quite NASTY threat of 14.Nxe6!? fxe6 15.Bb6 where black's only move is 15... Nxf3 16.Bxa5 Nxd2 17.Rxd2... Oh, oops, this may not work, as white now has a lot of hanging pawns. Alright, idea #2 with 12.Na4, follow it with 13.b3 and then 14.a3 using the pin against the black queen. however I'm liking the alternative in 12.Nce2, black must defend b4 so maybe 12... Qa5 13.Kb1 Bb7 (black has bring a rook to c8 at some point) 14.Bh3 with the plan of g5 and Nf4. I think that's the line I feel most comfortable with. My vote is definitely going for 12.Nce2. All in all I'm definitely not a fan of 12.Nb1... especially after 12... Qa5. There doesn't seem to be any other alternative as a Nd5 sac is silly and there are no useful in between moves.
12.Nce2!
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yanm
3/31/2007
06:56:13
[ report this post ] | 10 hours left
Message:
so I played 12. Nce2. Now there is no way back, lets storm them :D
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raskerino
4/02/2007
19:45:00
[ report this post ] |
Message:
Ooh, maybe they can play the VERY annoying 12... Nc4 here, I completely missed that. While the dark squared bishop isn't the most important thing ever, I hope they give us time to play Nf4 or Ng3 so that we can cover c4 with our light bishop.
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yanm
4/02/2007
23:43:27
[ report this post ] | Hmm
Message:
I guess that it was maybe their plan. Then after 12...Nc4 13.Qd3 Nxe3, they might try to take control of the dark squares and open up the game, or exploit a possible pin along the a7-g1 diagonal. For example, what do you think about 14...d5?
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yanm
4/02/2007
23:46:17
[ report this post ] | Three more posts left on this thread
Message:
Next thread can be found there -> gameknot.com.
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