| From | Message |
ccmcacollister
2/12/2007
23:20:32
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 Subject: Consutation Team:Far1ey & ccmcacollister #2
Message:
Looks like the thread ran out at a bad time since I just went to get the FEN for that last MCO-12 line. Again, standard Najdorf moves, then
6.Be3 Nbd7 7.Be2 Nc5 8.Bf3 Bd7 9.g4 h6 10.Qe2 g6 "="
For which the FEN is :
***
***
I found the d-base I was looking for with some help from a friend to remember the URL from my lost FAV list. So now should be able to see some games, finally!
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far1ey
2/15/2007
02:33:51
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Message:
I am busy at the moment but I will put in a few quick comments.
I agree with you on your Be7 comment. i dont think we can abandon castling and hand over the two bishops at the moment. (pitty this didnt occur before we made Ndf7) The game posted above looks interesting. unfortunately the position is slightly different to ours but I think the ideas in the game are right. We need a Nc5 (or perhaps Ne5!?) someday or else Nf8 with either knight. Another interesting game is between mybookrunsdeep and Sicilian_monster. The game is very well annotated by mybookrunsdeep and contains a few 'ideas' which might be useful. It is annotated somewhere but I exported...
[Event "Challenge from sicilian_monster"]
[Site "-> gameknot.com
[Date "09-Sep-06"]
[Round "-"]
[White "mybookrunsdeep"]
[Black "sicilian_monster"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "1932"]
[BlackElo "1838"]
[TimeControl "3 days per move"]
1. e4 {This game features one of the sharpest lines in the Najdorf/English
Attack. Black chooses the continuation 8...h6, where, as Finnish IM Tapani
Sammaluvo puts it, Black burns his boats behind him. His king will never
castle, at least not on the kingside, however, his pieces can develop freely
and White is unable to stop Black's freeing d5 break. White's pieces develop
quickly also and the play becomes razor sharp.} c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4
4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 {The Najdorf proper.} 6. f3 {The modern move order.}
e6 {Black prepares a Scheveningen setup, where he has considerable counterchances
despite White's lead in development and space. Black has one more center
pawn than White so is the only side with the reasonable expectation of
a center break. Black can attempt to exploit this early f3, with an immediate
6...Qb6 or 6...b5.} 7. Be3 b5 {Wasting no time in attacking the Queenside.}
8. g4 {The correct move order, as if Black wants to play lines where he
stations a knight on b6, he has to play the unnatural ...Nfd7, as 8...Nbd7?!
is met with 9. g5, which sidelines the knight.} h6 {The super-sharp main
line. A major battle is about to erupt.} 9. Qd2 b4 {9...Nbd7 is more popular
and solid. This move is recommended by GM John Emms.} 10. Na4 {10. Nce2
is the conservative approach, but nothing about this game so far has been
conservative and far be it for me to be the party pooper!!} Nb-d7 11. O-O-O
Ne5 {A deviation from main line theory. 11...d5!? is unrefuted at the
highest levels of play according to IM Tapani Sammaluvo in his book on
the English Attack, 2004. This move however, does have its master level
adherents.} 12. Qxb4 {My turn to deviate. The line recommended by GM Bezgodov
is 12. a3 Rb8 14 ab Qxb4 15. Qxb4 Rxb4 16. h3 d5 , where Sammaluvo chimes
in and gives 17. c3 Rb8 18. f4, followed by e5 gives White an advantage.}
Bd7 {Trying to exploit the placement of the a4-knight, as the White queen
can become trapped on the queenside.} 13. Nc3 {Exclam. The White queen
has nowhere to go, but I had just read David Lemoir's book on knight sacrifices
on the queenside in the sicilian and had a special treat prepared for my
opponent.} Qc7 {13...d5 or 13...Rb8 are alternatives, however, I will spare
readers the analysis of all the lines that I have written in my private
play book.} 14. Qb3 {Protecting d5.} d5 {Very nice move!! Black achieves
his break and is looking good.} 15. exd5 Rb8 {Trapping the queen, this
is probably the most testing move.} 16. Nc-b5 {This passive sacrifice allows
me to rip open the Black king position and rain holy fire and damnation
on his majesty.} axb5 17. dxe6 fxe6 18. Nxe6 Qc6 {18...Bxe6 19. Qxe6+ Qe7
20. Qxe7+ Bxe7 21. Bf4! Nfd7 22. Re1 Bd6 23. f4 and White wins his piece
back and has a 3-to-1 majority on the queenside, and a won endgame.} 19.
Nd4 {Gaining a tempo.} Qa6 20. Bf4 {The first pin.} Bd6 21. Re1 {The second
pin.} Qa5 {I thought this was a clever move. Black still loses the piece,
but my opponent is very resourceful.} 22. Bd3 {Aiming at the weak g6-square.}
b4 {Discovering a defender on the pinned piece, but there is a nice tactical
shot which causes the Black position to collapse.} 23. Nc6 {Here I win
back my material and retain the attack. Black is objectively lost.} Bxc6
24. Qe6+ Be7 25. Rxe5 {Regaining the piece with a huge advantage.} Qc7
26. Bg6+ Kd8 27. Rd1+ Bd7 28. Qxe7+ {Here black resigns as 28...Kc8 is
met with 29. Rc5, winning the queen. } 1-0
Even though white won there is alot we can learn from that game...
0-0-0!? Could be very very interesting if we castled queenside!!! it might be a bit risky with b5 being so weak but if we are able to open lines before white does we might have a nice attack! I know of no games like this but it might be well worth the try!
IMO your "pros and cons" of the situation are very accurate. We will have to be careful about Nc6 especially.
There is plenty more for me to write about but I am very very very busy at the moment so it may have to wait a while...
Regards,
Far1ey
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ccmcacollister
2/15/2007
08:07:00
[ report this post ] | yes!
Message:
That was a very interesting game indeed. I saw it earlier in that other forum too. Tho 16...axb5 is a blatant error by black imo and he falls apart following it. There had to be quite a lot of shock value at work in such a situation! :)
The trick was to delay the recapture till absolutely required, then knowing what way to do it. But seem to recall only one line where p takes was the best way.
Oh what a difference, had BL had but one more tempo played tho (typical sicilian, eh!? :)) . We'll have to watch our tempiis well it seems! I'm trying to see somemore games myself today.
I like the thought of ...d5 if/when it will play, as a general Sicilian concept. Something to consider for sure. Especially vs a set-up as rigid as the f3 complex WT makes in this opening, it has been very effective in other games I've seen, similar in pawn structure, giving WT somehting of a delimna about his e4 strongpoint. Does he keep it or let BL have the option to take there, or try to play around it. I've found that a tough decision myself, often. Or to capture ....d5 or push e5 as wt!? Back to the center again!
***
I recall another little sac theme we watch for ... again seen in Dragons at times or even the French .... for WT to play Nf5 subject to pawn capture, to open lines.
****
Hope you get caught up . Maybe then I'll be back up to ....well, half-speed probably. But more ready for some Chess then anyway :)
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ccmcacollister
2/15/2007
08:32:17
[ report this post ] | Interesting Stuff. ...
Message:
Was looking at chesslabDOTcom database. See KAsparov won by avoiding ....h6 as bl and playing Nb6 instead vs Judith Polgar 2006, but she then did a sac on b5 as WT that did not pan out and Kaspy won. But give the lady credit for fearlessness!
Anand had a win as WT vs ...h6 but there was lots of play. Interesting enough, HE did do the Nf5 sac offer I just mentioned above! !? But well he won anyway :))
Players seem to be pushing b4 before ...Nc5 tho, and I dont see why really. Sometimes follow with Qa5 instead. When either would prevent Na4 in the first place. So perhaps it is not a great move in BL's view. But if it gets hung out there at Na5 Qa5, b3 then perhaps chances to ATTACK it first should be viewed?! EG our B can easily go to Bd7 since we are not yet committed. As long as we are careful not to allow Nb6 or such, or Bb6. But seems it can be done before that is possible or Rb8 would stopper it to start with. !?
The BL's are definately NOT o-o'g tho just as you said !
I was hoping that would be the case after ....h6. I'd think we'd have to be on the verge of winning and desperate for a tempo to even consider it.
Anand did just play o-o-o vs our present position, without a qualm it seems. Oh me. But will they be Anand?! Or more cautious. OH interesting it shall be to see ! !
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ccmcacollister
2/15/2007
08:46:31
[ report this post ] | TN ?
Message:
I think there next move or two will set the tide for the game and tell us a lot. If they do o-o-o I want to consider the value of TN...Qa5 vs keeping it on d8 for a ...d5 push if/when possible. That Books*deep game shows the value of having Be7 played tho perhaps. May want to have the ...o-o option or Kf8 at least hanging in the air of possibility before launching the major offensive eh> ? Books played that well, despite his opponent weakening at the end. Really was a fascinating finish off then.
[ ALMOST one of those miraculous 'Everything Works' positions, that I've learned to mistrust so much when I think I see one. Tho they certainly exist. Evans had a great one once, that you would swear there MUST be a WIN that just was not ... an Everything Holds defensive position. After hours on that one, I got an aversion to believing in seeing them turn up without a lot of skeptical searching ... Guess that one was a big irritant since I knew I would have sat there looking at Evans board till my clock dropped and lost looking for that Win that wasnt there...which has happened other times I guess. Oh well. Better than missing something being there!! maybe !?] [maybe not?! :) ]
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ccmcacollister
2/15/2007
12:14:47
[ report this post ] | more bits n pieces
Message:
Andrew, I've been cogitating the game some more this morning, using one of the eerie, mystic techniques known only to Zen Masters and bored Iowa Chess players who lack tournaments for months at a time ... which is called, "A completely independent, self-motivated, brainstorming technique for unplanned generation of non-seriel move sequences of indeterminent significance pending further analysis"
which the boorish sometimes call "playing blitz Chess with yourself" :(
######################################################
*** [Amateurs & kids at home, Should NOT try this; without appropriate safety measures ! ... Lock the door; and Never tell anyone! shhhh ...The truly well informed will note that this is basically the same precautions as for self-hypnotizing to "play chess like a Polgar sister!" for an otb tournament. ] ***
#####################################################
And as usual, interesting ideas show up ... such as a novel way we could lose a piece. That is the gist of the technique tho ... that it Does provide many novel, off-the-cuff type moves that might not be considered during traditionally logical left-brain sequencing.
9. ... Nb-d7
10. a3 Qc7 11. O-O-O Be7 12. h4 Nc5 13. Rg1 Bb7 14. g5 hxg5 15. hxg5 Nf-d7
16. g6 f6 17. b4 e5 18. Ndxb5 axb5 19. Nxb5 Qc6 20. bxc5 Nxc5 21. Nxd6+ Bxd6
22. Qxd6 Qxd6 23. Rxd6
Na4 24. Bb5+ Kf8 25. Bxa4 Rxa4 26. Rd8+ Ke7 27. Rxh8
#########################################
Here is a fen diagram of the postion after 23.Rd6 showing yet another try to keep the piece fails. A rare example which may actually prove useful, other than for getting game flow and strange new ideas. Something to actually watch out for. And also looks like "a3" was not so bad for WT as I'd hoped, or I handled it very badly. But unfortunately, I have seen it played alongside o-o-o many times, and the urge to punish it may prove more difficult than would be hoped or expected. hmmm. Something to consider there.
###############
FEN after 23 Rd6
-
And it looks like this try would also fail to the threats of BxN or Rd7+ , if I am not missing a resouce.
23. . . . Rc8
24. Bb5+ Ke7
25. Rg-d1
Anyway, not something to lose much time on specifically. Tho it does concern me more about a possible wt a3. And also the Sac on b5 there, while Kasparov has pounded it, and I would like to brush it off ... when you LOOK at it coming AT YOU,
it does seem to have a certain looming quality if some followup moves like a4 or c4 start to be played !?
Do you think they might actually try it, partner? From what you've seen of their play & games? Any feel on who/which of their team might incline more to adventure
of play or risky aggression?
(I hope to have time to go over more of their games and see too. I know you're short of time too right now. But if you recall something from before, I'd like to know
, and even faint recollections are most welcome. My own shelves being completely
bare on the question)
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far1ey
2/15/2007
22:47:32
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Message:
I'll write another post tomorrow because I am busy right now but just a quick message....
They timed out... I suppose a reinstate will happen...
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far1ey
2/16/2007
22:24:48
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Message:
Hmmmm there seems to be a problem Ive pressed the accept reinstatement button about ten times and nothing has happened...
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far1ey
2/16/2007
22:25:48
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Message:
Perhaps we have to wait for yamn to move then accept the reinstatement then make our move...
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ccmcacollister
2/18/2007
01:49:10
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Message:
I believe that they must first request reinstatement and we okay it?! I have only had one game where I've done it with someone, seems to me that is how we did it.
I do hope it continues, but just as well to wait a little bit if everyone is so busy right now, I guess. I'm very flexible on it ... which I guess just means I never know when the next "disaster" of the week will be ... so all times are equally bad ?! heheh. Still it is very interesting game and certainly deserves continuation if there's a will to. Dont you think so too>?
Have you talked to them ... know if they have tried to reinstate?
One caution is, I beleive that now there can be only one reinstatement per game. Do you know if that MEANS only ONE ... or only ONE EACH?! I don't.
Regards, Craig
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far1ey
2/21/2007
23:51:32
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Message:
Once again very busy with school. Coincidentally, yamn has postponed for 20 days so it might get a bit quite. I'll post another comment asap about our game.
Sorry for the delay
Far1ey
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ccmcacollister
2/22/2007
16:50:58
[ report this post ] | hmmm ....
Message:
Something to consider; perhaps it would be better than a reinstatement to just re-enter the game to the present point, with is set up to have a new, longer time control?! I worry that if it gets tooo long a TC it could hamper consultation ... but that may be wrong. And everyone seems to have a great deal of business at present (myself included). Or perhaps this would be a good time to just declare an Intermission aka Study Break for the position?
Just some thoughts of the moment. Not necessarily proposals .... tho not necessarily Not.
If everyone still has an interest in it, etc. ?
I am enjoying the game so far, myself ... despite my irratic contribution.
Regards
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ccmcacollister
2/22/2007
17:06:48
[ report this post ] | PS//
Message:
I have run across part of the reason that the "English Attack" with f3 was considered weak in the 70's/80's ... which is that basically it appears the f3 move should be unneeded, and a forthright g4 playable without it.
Either that is still true and players are chosing to ignore it, perhaps settling for some WT draws using it (surely not settling for Losses!). OR BL has made some line in the past that has made f3 become necessary ... or it is simply stronger for WT to play it.
Of those, the Latter is the hardest for me to accept. Perhaps just considered SAFER to play it? Or maybe its play relates to defense of e4 rather than support of g4 push? The only other advantage I can see being possible might be that it allow the Queen to slide right on over to K-side via the 2nd rank. Tho hardly likely that the BL K will ever be over there now!
****
Incidentally, the most recent info I have booked involves Kasparov saying that their placement of Qd2 is insufficiently aggressive, and Qe2 to be preferred as per the lines he calls Kere's Attack. That was probably from the 90's (mislaid that darn book already since last night! Or I would look at the date. Grrrr ... hate that!). It is possible he may have had his mind changed for him since then, I suppose! ?! If so, I have not seen the game yet tho. And another 90's book I have, "Interview with a Grandmaster", shows that players were apparently still trying to "play around" the Kere's Attack as BL, at that time. Per a game with a Polgar sister in it, explaining how a Taimanov Sicilian move order, transposing into a Scheveningen from it, is for that purpose of avoidance.
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far1ey
2/23/2007
15:31:41
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Message:
The weekend.... FINALLY!!
Firstly I dont know whether yamn sent you a pm but it appears basbos is timing out on alll his games!!!! He hasnt been online in a week and yamn is wondering whether (after the postponement has finished) he should continue on his own or find a new partner. If basbos has indeed left the site would you know of anyone willing to take his spot? I dont really know of anyone but perhaps we can find someone in the forums. However it is probably best to wait a few more days just to make sure basbos has REALLY left the site. We probably dont want a 3v2 situation ;)
about reinstatments, this is my first time at trying to reinstate one, Im not entirely sure of the proceedure. The "only one" reinstatement rule also makes things a bit more hectic in a way... Maybe its just the pressure...
Longer time control.
EXACTLY!!! I was just thinking the same thing (great minds think alike ;)) After the consultation match was over I was going to open a forum so that the players could suggest any improvements. A longer time control was what I was going to post. By the time you read your teammates post then make another post then he makes a post then you make a move you are pushed for time to the limit! Not to mention that both you and I have many other commitments! I was also going to note that consultation chess OTB is much easier...
Interest in the game...
Yes I am very much interested and can't wait to get to a messy counterattacking middlegame. However my studies take more of a priority (according to my parents anyways) so things are tight this way...
I must be quick (tennis lesson is starting...) about the kasparov Qe2 thingie does he give any reasons why Qe2 is better? (once you find the book ;)) it would be useful to know as we could expliot the "misplacement" of whites queen then... However Qd2 looks perfectly fine to me, its much more useful on the black squares then on e2 where its cramped. On f3 hmmmm I agree with you, perhaps the reason for f3 isnt just for the g4 push its for protecting e4 and perhaps the queen maneuvre...
I have to go (tennis is starting!!!! argh!!!!)
Sorry for the delays will post asap.
Far1ey
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far1ey
3/07/2007
22:39:35
[ report this post ] |
Message:
Time to get the posts rolling again with seven days to go...
My last post really explains most of the non-chess stuff of the situation and now to the chess stuff...
On the Polgar Kasparov game (full credit for the gutsy sacrifice!) it seems that the b5 sacrifice must be calculated to the EXTREME! I went over the game and it is very interesting. It seems that the b5 sac didnt work because black could play Be7 and 0-0 extremely quickly and get out of trouble. Something to keep in the back of our minds just in case we face a b5 sac, the 0-0 may be useful (although we should probably avoid it before hand). Another factor was probably whites 0-0-0 which gave black excellent chances due to the open files (opened by the b5 sac funnily enough) so another thing to remember. A b5 sac gives us the a and b files to use (possibly) against the 0-0-0...
Interesting looking at the postitives for BLACK in the b5 sac...
b4????
Very interesting your post. b4 doesnt seem to do anything! Although it gains a tempo but it can be played at anytime! unless white wastes one tempo with a3. After a3 I dont think we can be terribly critical of our postition. Our king is relatively safe and we have good chances for a queen side storm.The postition seeems evenish (by even I mean the fact that each side has taken a move to prevent counterplay and therefore we have pretty good chances.)
I was just wondering what we will do if white avoids castling on either side (or else a 0-0!?) will we go queenside (which is less effective because white has an extra tempo after not catling and there is no king to attack) or open the centre (d5 perhaps?) which might be hard to do with OUR king in the centre!!! But otherwise we should try to avoid castling until absoulutely necessary...
how do we view the b4 and after that Na4 b3? As you said the delayed development of the black white bishop (d7 or b7) will suit us as after Na4 Bd7 and Qa5 look strong.
Are we running low on developing moves!?!?!!? After our Nbd7 how do we continue? We are reluctant to move the white bishop till white shows his hand (Na4 or something else) The Be7 could be considered a waste of time if we want immediate counterplay and as you said previously the queen on d8 is useful especially if we need an open centre to attack the uncastled white king. Perhaps that is a reason for b4 - to force an Na4/Ne2 when black knows how to continue... So it looks like b4 may be good if we "run out of developing moves" Thoughts?
An interesting game you posted there (Craig vs Craig!!!) with many oppourtunities for both sides, but I was wondering if h4 is necessary??? The pros are obvious, the opening of the h file and a nice g pawn but it may be worth keeping in mind a non-h4 move order when g5 hxg5 Rxg5 might be nice for white.
a4/c4 OOOOooooo. Seems very interesting but what happens after b4? c2 seems awfully weak and after say Nce2 Rb8!? Seems odd but may be playable?! Apart from b5 it seems that a4 is a good/interesting move but how about after a4 Nc5//Ne5 and then Bd7? Threatening to hold onto the pawn? b3 and c2 is awfully weak... Could be worth looking into. I'll see what I can do...
Regards,
Far1ey
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far1ey
3/15/2007
22:35:49
[ report this post ] |
Message:
0-0-0 4 days till we must move.
Firstly Id like to say im quite surprised at this sudden 0-0-0. It seems that we are the only ones who will benefit:
-We can now attack qside without fearing a delay of 0-0-0.
-The queen should possibly travel to the qside (in otherwards there is no real need now for it on d8.
-b4 + Bd7 looks nice afterthe knight has moved.
I think this move poses a few questions:
If we are to play Nf8!? which knight will it be. If it is to be the d knight it may be worth playing Be7 with Nf8 b4 Bd7 to come. If it is with the f knight then when will we maneuvre the knight there? Furthermore Be7 is not favourable after Nc6!
Just a thought how about Qa5? Followed by Be7 Nf8 N6d7? looks strong although Nc6 is still annoying... I suppose thats why Bb7 is played in this position, to prevent Nc6! However if we want the Bd7 to counter the Na4 then I think Nc5! is good. We follow up with b4 Bd7 and Be7 Nfd7. This may take a while and delay some Q-side play however we get a solid king and it is by no means easy for white to crack into our k-side/king.
ARRRRGH Nc5? Ndxb5!!
In that case Ne5!? perhaps... Thoughts comments?
Far1ey
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ccmcacollister
3/17/2007
13:16:36
[ report this post ] | Hi
Message:
I've really lost the thread of it after all this time. Tho it does seem to me I'd like to prevent the Nc6 bit so Be7 can be played./ I guess that leaves Bb7 or Qc7 to do that. Perhaps Qa7 would play since no Be7 for it to take yet, then could meet Nc6 with the Qc7 as a retreat maybe a tempo gain eh?
now that theyve o-o-o I guess b4 is a consideration again. Agree we dont want to o-o unless required to gain some tempos of survival. For some reason o-o-o did not show up on my game copy. I guess the reinstatment maybe got a new board?!
Will see some more chess tonight I hope. Been a tough week/day.
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ccmcacollister
3/17/2007
13:17:54
[ report this post ] | maybe ...Nc5 !?
Message:
to consider too.
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ccmcacollister
3/17/2007
18:07:54
[ report this post ] | OR ...Ne5
Message:
I found the new board setup.
Notice we cannot play ...b4 now unless sac'g the b pawn, due to Nc6. Nor Qa5 followed by b4, same reason.
But if we cover ...c6 it seems WT may have some trouble where to put his knights vs a ...b4 push. And to cover c4 vs Nc4. So now looking at ways to prep a meaningful b4. Yet a3 mqkes it hard to play without sac'g.
****
Interesting way to drop our Queen I found ...
O-O-O Ne5
11. f4 b4
12. fxe5 bxc3
13. Qxc3 dxe5
14. Nc6 Qc7
15. Rd8+ Qxd8
16. Nxd8 Kxd8
17. Qc6 Rb8
18. Bb6+ Ke7
19. Qc7+ Nd7
20. Ba7 Rb7
21. Bc5+ Kf6
22. Qxc8 Nxc5
23. Bxa6 Ra7
24. Qd8+ Kg6
25. Bc4 Kh7
26. h4
Not rechecked analylsis. Just some thoughts . Perhsps WT would have even better in there.
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ccmcacollister
3/17/2007
22:34:01
[ report this post ] | interesting line
Message:
... since the b-file is usually most effective of the three Q-side lines for attack vs o-o-o
imo.
O-O-O Qc7
11. h3 Ne5
12. f4 Nc4
13. Bxc4 bxc4
****
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ccmcacollister
3/17/2007
22:56:36
[ report this post ] | Related idea
Message:
O-O-O Ne5
11. h3 b4
12. Na4 Qa5
13. b3 Bd7
14. f4 Bxa4
15. fxe5 dxe5
16. Nf3 Bc6
17. Kb1 Nd7
***
And if 14.Nb2? Qxa2 wins the knight after 15. Q-move, Qa1+
Was also looking at that type line with 11....Qc7 stuck into it, but it just seems a wasted tempo if going into such.
I just used h3 there for them so as to allow for f4 to kick our knight off e5, and not be a sac of g4. Perhaps they have better there, or might want to sac g4, tho dont see where it hurts us really, as ...g6 seems common in some of these lines and helpful there if needed maybe.
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ccmcacollister
3/17/2007
23:10:22
[ report this post ] | more Ne5
Message:
O-O-O Ne5
11. f4 Nc4
12. Bxc4 bxc4
13. g5 hxg5
14. fxg5 Ng4
15. Bg1 Be7 ! seems a bit stronger than ...Ne5 which would be good otherwise. eg. Even if 16. h4 then Bxg5 plays/wins it seems. Not 14...Nd7? there or 15.g6! looks rough.
You think we could get into this Ne5 stuff and live thru it ? :) Maybe I'm off on a tangent? But it seems unusual and interesting if it will play. Sharper than putting in a Qc7
...See any refutation of the idea? interested at all?
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far1ey
3/18/2007
20:12:43
[ report this post ] |
Message:
b4 is possible. b4 Nc6?? bxc3 when we are up five. Therefore after b4 Nce2 I think it is unclear at what is going on. We have allowed white to get his bishop to c4 activating it (notice it has nowhere to go currently) and white can now bring the knight to the k-side after Qa5 our postition isnt bad...
...b4
Nce2 Qa5!
Kb1
But now we have no piecees for the attack. Ne5 Ng3! is strong. I think that a b4 would be premature at this stage. We need better placement of our pieces and the b5 pawn holds onto the c4 square, something useful.
Nc5 loses to Ndxb5!!
Then our attention must turn to two decent alternatives Bb7 and Ne5.
From a strategic point of view Ne5 looks best. We mobolise a piece to a fantastic square where it can go straight to c4. Obviously the downside is that f4 gains a nice tempi for white however after f4 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 we have the b file and what does f4 gain? another interesting point in your analysis is that they must waste a tempo with h3 for protection of g4. Delaying counterplay! This knight is definately good. I suggest we keep the knight there until h3 is played then play Nc4 opening the b file. however we are giving up our knight which has moved three times for a one move bishop but the b file and the wasted h3 is easy compensation. If this is indeed the continuation then we can be happy with our position... what happens after h4 then? I think we can be happy as g5 hxg hxg loses the rook and even if Be2 protecting the Rook before g5 then we can play Rxh1! Rxh1 when the rook does little on the h file.
Bb7 on the other hand strategically only covers the c6 square, something which doesnt need immediate protection although after h4 g5 we can play our Nh7-f8 perhaps? however if we need quick castling we will need Be7 which means in turn we need Bc6. But if we delay castling, who knows perhaps neither bishop move will be needed.
Very double edged! I think that from both our analysis we can see that Ne5 seems to be the superior move. I am prepared to take the risks for this move... Thoughts? Opinions? Perhaps Bb7 is superior...
Either way, I can smell a big sacrificial battle coming up :D
Far1ey
PS: Happy Birthday to your daughter from me! And get better soon!
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far1ey
3/20/2007
00:39:41
[ report this post ] |
Message:
Running low on time as we will want to make our move soon so we have good time for the complications which are about to follow. Ive checked your profile and you have your vacation flag up... I will wait till tonight before making the default move Ne5 (it seems from our analysis).
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far1ey
3/20/2007
00:46:39
[ report this post ] |
Message:
For future reference and to save you from finding the board...
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ccmcacollister
3/20/2007
15:26:41
[ report this post ] | farley ...
Message:
Thx for pointing out my mistake re b4 ! Good one.
In turn, note that they dont actually have to defend g4 before playing f4, (tho i hope they think they must, for a tempo, as you say) they can just play f4 and if Nxg4 they are THREATENING h3 with "where does our knight Go" the Question. It has no retreat unless we create one, like h5. And I think that may favor them actually, from our K-side weakening>?
And they get the open line. Which is one reason I like the thought we just go to Nc4 ala Dragon! Where b-file attacks are usually very strong. I would kind of like to see what happens from Ne5
which, is of course a Terrible Reason to Make a move! But it does also leave the book nicely I think yet plays into our Dragon knowlege analogically, and so perhaps gives advantage from that. aka ... It may confuse them?! :)
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ccmcacollister
3/20/2007
15:37:43
[ report this post ] | I should mention ...
Message:
Maybe I'm going to far looking for an attack ... thinking the b-file may serve with less pieces. The thing is that I don't know how to make a winning attack on the c-file without BOTH our Rooks, for one thing.
And if we cannot do so, maybe we should just develop and try to get in a Nc5 that opens the d-file and takes off some stuff. The knight move is a gamble probably. And I dont know about their new player. But noted several times in yanms games, like a KGA where his opponent missed a tactical win. I think that tactics favor us. And complications. Then again ... I missed b4 being playable ... tho agree with you, I dont feel ready for it yet. At least until we have covered c6 someway. Yet a3 will slow us down from playing it a lot it would seem.
You know, this is really cumbersome having to write everything and read etc. Perhaps ESP would be better , or Somethign!
I will leave all final decisions to you I think, and just make what input I can. Since you do have the board after all! :) And my online-ness is spotty lately. Sorry bout that ....
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ccmcacollister
3/20/2007
15:41:05
[ report this post ] | I still like Ne5 tho!
Message:
Despite moving a piece twice when behind in development. But its like our QB is already on a good defensive diagonal. So i didnt want it to sound like I am wimping out from the N move. Risky ... but isnt everything here? Its a Sicilian! :)))
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ccmcacollister
3/20/2007
20:26:23
[ report this post ] | now I am starting to have doubts
Message:
Perhaps Ne5 is trappy and not the best way to guard the c6 square.
Alternatively I like ....Qe7 followed by Be7 Then perhaps N move to e5 or c5. Something like Rb8 or b4. Have some developement in. Let them find useful things to do if they can in the meantime....
I leave it to you if you want to play it loose or develop more farley!
It seems we must be careful not to give up the KB whatever we do, as it holds d6 ... which holds much together for us.
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far1ey
3/20/2007
22:22:25
[ report this post ] |
Message:
My turn once again... After f4? Nxg4 h3 we can play Nxe3! 'winning' the two bishops which could prove decisive. I agree with you that the Ne5 is not a very 'decisive' way to prevent Nc6 (or any other c6 attacks) and it looks risky but as you say it is a Sicilian and it wouldnt be a real sicilian without taking risks. However there may be traps as you have mentioned, but I think we can hold out assuming our calculative skills are equal to those of our opponents. It may also be good to get yamn/raskerino out of the book as they have been playing the most popular move throughout and judging by their lack of posting (I went into the team forum to look at the number of posts !no peeking!) I would say that they have put far less thought into the position. In otherwards what I am saying is that:
1. They only have three days to move ie limiting their thinking time
2. If they are following the GK DB or another database it would suit us to get them out of the book as we have more prepared lines already whereas they have only three days to find theory.
"I leave it to you if you want to play it loose or develop more farley! " Well I am not entirely sure about Ne5 but as neither of us see any traps I think it would be good to play this aggresive move. (not saying that Bb7 isnt aggresive.)
Also I agree that the queen bishop might be better on c8 where it guards the 'weak' e6 square and 'prevents' any f5 sacs.
Ne5 then... Here we go!!! BRING IT ON!!!
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ccmcacollister
3/21/2007
15:32:01
[ report this post ] | sorry
Message:
I said it wrong .... after Nxg4 they would ertreat Bg1 first to make for the h3 threat, rather than play it immediately. Thus is why I was thinking something like the weakening ...h5 might be necessary. I thin the tempo they use for that is less damaging than our weakening and they can go back to Be3 later. ... This is what I mean about the medium being awkard. I think I could write about 4 pages about this game so far ... but you know .... for just generalities and such maybe. :)
Yea, I havej to Like this line for some reason. Maybe becasue it does invite them to come and get us. Our peices are actually useful as they stand, for defensive purposes, just not so much for offense. I would like for them to mix it up. (epitaph?! :))
I agree it will give them something to think about! Or will tell us something if they do not ... we'll see. Will be interesting. (mroe famous last words :))
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ccmcacollister
3/21/2007
15:33:23
[ report this post ] | Hey Andrew ... great idea!
Message:
I may look into one of those SPEECH to PRINT programs! Tjhen Watch Out bud!!
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ccmcacollister
3/21/2007
18:29:08
[ report this post ] | Yes ...
Message:
It feels good picturing our Bd7 in this game, where it will attack and defend simlultaneously.
Considering THEIR PLANS/STRATEGY, it seems pretty much the USUAL for WT in a Sicilian. That they might now:
a)Play for the center lines with Rooks on d1 and e1. OR can double up on the d-file.
[Incidentally, if you ever play the Smith-Morra Gambit as WT, I've found there are cases where doubling the Rooks on the d-file right off can be much better than the usual Rc1 and Rd1 set up. Something of a little secret I think. At least I havent seen anyone put it into print yet. You ever try the Morra? I gave it up as drawish vs good players. And that if they play ...d5 or espec....Nf6 declined lines, it is terribly BORING for WT and can really put him out of the mood~! ]
b)A somewhat unusual idea that is seldom played, is putting rooks on Rc1 and Rd1 ... since it would tend to open lines near their king now. I dont expect to see it.
C) Probably most usual, for them to try K-side attack.(1) h-file they might try opening it and we'd keep our KR on most likely, so they might try to stack on the h-file, then trade with Rh8 so that their Majors could become dangerous to our king there ... of course we still have the o-o-o idea or poss. Nd7-Nf8. Or running the king away via d7.
c-2) They can go for open g-file, aor ramming g-pawn.
c-3) they can try pushing f-pawn to attack e6, or perhaps clear to f6. Opening f or g file. Poss sac's of f aor g pawn's.
There is a common line from the Richter Attack I believe, vs Najdorf or maybe Scheveningen ... where WT goes into the Bg5 lines like PP Najdorf but not going into pp, you know. Then follows with f4 and Qd2 or Qf3. Then g4, g5. Then pushes f5 after that which sacs the pawn on g5 passively, opening g-file, while ramming the f-pawn forward vs e6 ... (giving BL the e5 SQ tho). They may try such a line.
****
Imo the f-pawn advancement ideas would seem the most dangerous to us. But that should be muted somewhat, not having Bc4. Where will it end up ? Bd3 or Be2 or Bf1
or BxNc4 perhaps. And our Bd7 will still guard e6 along with our f7 pawn. Which is a trade-off since we gave up ...Nc5 which also would normally have guarded it a bit temporarily. Yet perhaps better the Bishop, being less temporary! Hope so. But it does take the d7 SQ away if a King run needed. Yet there is o-o-o chances in case of dire need ... if we have our Q;c7 or Qa5 and not moved the Rook yet.
It might be an interesting thing to watch for a chance to do o-o-o also, if they totally commit to the King side and get their Rooks going over there etc. And we could switch our field of attack (often a very effective tactic! in general. Especially if unexpected. I've won many games that way) to the CENTER!? Or most likely the d file
and perhaps c-file.
****************
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ccmcacollister
3/21/2007
18:54:58
[ report this post ] | Found an interesting way ...
Message:
...for us to get MATED! :)
10. .........Ne5
11. f4 Nexg4
12. Bg1 Nd7
13. h3 Ng-f6
14. e5 dxe5
15. Nc6 Qc7
16. fxe5 Nxe5??
(I was thinking if 16....Qxc6 17.Bg2 but perhaps 17....Nd5 then. But there would always be 17....exNf6. Tho I didnt look at 18.QxRh1 there. Anyway this is presented as just a possibility of the position that they might work toward, not as a definate line. More a potentiality that might be prepped, etc.)
Cont ...
17. Nxe5 Qxe5
18. Qd8#
And if we play 17 ... Nf6-MOVES instead of blundering with Nxe5?? Oh how BARE f7 is! We need to be aware of lines that will open the f-file and bare our f7 I think and avoid. As it looks oh so hard to defend. And especially dangerous till be get in Be7.
Then there could be Rf8 or o-o or such after Be7 anyway.
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ccmcacollister
3/22/2007
09:27:44
[ report this post ] | I see they have not moved yet !
Message:
I surely wonder what they might be thinking about our idea?! At times like this I sometimes cannot resist a short comment-tease like "We'll see if you are booked on the most recent theory?!"
* * * * * * * * * *
{.... seeing as how WE Just Created IT, and all . haha :) ... }
Just to see after the game, if a friendly opponent went scurrying to the books or d-bases
looking for it :))
Of course with my luck ... they would probably find a game with Kasparov refuting it~! Or worse, maybe Morphy did in 1863 or such !?!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ***
ACTUALLY I probly SHOULD SEE if the move might be in any of the d-bases I access !
So I will probably go looking for it later today or tomorrow ... Hey, wouldnt it have been really clever to look for it BEFORE suggesting it?!
Oh well . . .
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far1ey
3/23/2007
00:28:09
[ report this post ] |
Message:
The position so far:
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far1ey
3/23/2007
00:34:05
[ report this post ] | lol
Message:
Craig I love your sense of humour!
we can call this the craig-farley attack :D
I've got a club match tonight so I will post more tomorrow but I was just wondering whether the b5 sac works in this position?
Ncxb5!? axb5
Bxb5+ Bd7
f4 Nxg4
Nc6! Qc7
however looks safe for black... Just a thought
Will post more tomorrow. All the best
Far1ey
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far1ey
3/23/2007
21:13:08
[ report this post ] | h4!
Message:
Ah. I thought Bg1 was the first idea then h3 trapping the knight... Fortunately they have just played h4 which means no trapping although just for interest sake...
Bg1 b4!?
Nce2 Nxe4!
h3 Ngf6
When we are up two pawns with a good position.
An alternative is
Bg1 b4!?
h3!? bxc3
Qxc3 Nxe4
Although the knight is trapped the other knight can win a pawn...
Anyways back to the game...
Important thing to note is that they are still following the GK database!!! Perhaps we should look at the games and find refutations and then if they follow the refutations we might come out with a better position!
That said, there is nothing wrong with h4, preparing g5 blasting open the h-file etc.
Ok...
What are we trying to do craig? What is our plan?
Plan:
1. Attack queen side with moves like Nc4 Rb8 Qb6 or the immdediate b4.
2. Achieve a safe king. The immediate Nh7!? deserves consideration with Be7 and Nf8!?
3. Prevent counterplay. After Nh7!? g5 h5!! counterplay is gone.
Any others you can see?
What immediate moves come to mind?
Possible candidates:
b4
Nc4
Nh7
Nd7!?
Bb7
Ok.
b4
The chessness in me still hints that this is very premature still. I dont quite know why but I really dont see any decent follow up moves.
...b4
Nce2
When we have given away the c4 square and the knight can allways relocate to f4/g3. Furthermore our next move is limited by the weakness of the b pawn. Then again perhaps I am wrong...
Nc4 looks strong. The obvious downside is that it has taken us three moves to get to c4 but it is about to be exchanged for the bishop which hasnt even moved. It also connects the white rooks but we get the b file but is there an immediate way for us to exploit the open b file? This line looks awkward...Bxc4 bxc4 g5! When we are on the backfoot... Then again after g5 hxg hxg Nh7 is hard to break through.
Nh7 Interesting. Not sure of the validation of this move but this allows after g5 h5!! when counterplay is going down for white! The knight will then relocate after Bb7 (to prevent Nc6) Be7 and Nf8. With that said doesnt Nfd7 do the exact same thing!? Except that we have a choice of relocation spots? From d7 we might be able to play Nb6 or even Nc5!? if we are very adventurous.
Bb7 Nothing new. A perfectly good move. Occupying the c6 square but I have this question to pose. If we decide Bb7 then why didnt we just play it last move? Then again in most variations we have Bb7 is needed at some point... Ahhhhhh we also wanted Bd7 as an option! My memory is going... Perhaps Nfd7 isnt good then because we want Bd7 as option. Thoughts?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig, I havent played the morra (I play d4) but the few times I've played against it (I lost quickly too) I found the dfile very annoying as the queen is awkwardly placed and the d pawn is very weak, if the black bishop is ever lost then the d pawn would fall immediately. Therefore it would be an unusual way to play the position but a effective way none the less.
I agree that an opening of the h-file would be most likely to see next. I wonder if we can consider
g5 hxg5
hxg5 Rg8!? conserving a important defender.
Either way if ever a Rxh1 Rxh1 position is ever reached it is sure to favour white unless we have sufficient counterplay.
An interesting Rg8 position:
I did weird white moves, but the main point is the effectiveness of blacks defence. We have Nf8 and Rg8 and it is not easy for white to get in. Worth a thought. Perhaps they can play f4-5 although after f4 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 we could ignore the f5 threat...
Thoughts?
Far1ey
Ps: Speech to Print would be incredibly useful! Keep us updated!
Pss: lol. I sure hope Morphy hasnt refuted this. It would be incredibly funny if he had!
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far1ey
3/27/2007
02:05:52
[ report this post ] |
Message:
Time is pressing and I have noticed the postponed games you have... Hello? Are you ther craig... Craig?... CRAIG!!!! lol jks
Less than 24 hours to move and I am not sure what to do! I will wait until tonight before playing a move... Not sure which one... ARRGH!!
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far1ey
3/27/2007
03:14:31
[ report this post ] |
Message:
Hmmm Went over chesslab db and there are only two games where b4 was played both times
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far1ey
3/27/2007
14:30:51
[ report this post ] |
Message:
9 hours till lift off and we must move. Im not sure about the Nfd7 and Nh7 maneuvres now... the chesslab db has b4 followed by d5 as the best moves so perhaps I should just stick to the db for saftey sake. b4 it is.
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ccmcacollister
3/28/2007
12:53:55
[ report this post ] | Sorry, might you possibly PP for TWO?
Message:
Trouble with Nh7 now, they cannot play g5 yet anyway till Ra1 s somehow protected first unless they wqant to take back with Bg5. I think we want to h-file open. It may be time for b4. Been thinking of interesting Sacs for us. Maybe something like BL Something move
f4 b4
Nmove Nf3
Nf3 Ne4
This is real loose as I have not even got to look at the diagram.
I dont like Bb7, as feel we still want it at Bd7 most likley. if we do b4 now, does not their knight have to go Nb1? unless they wish to allow us Ne2 Nc4....Na4 MUST get killed now, yah?
If we do not play b4 immediately, then would like to reinfoerce c6. Maybe Qc7. Can it go Qa5 now?
On thinkg to look for is if b4 Nb1 Qa5 then a3! or !? might be pretty strong. Need to llok at it more too.
I have been doing a ton of analysis on my GK games right now sorry. And really need to tonight to get to everything. I thought we have another full day from now.
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ccmcacollister
3/28/2007
13:02:58
[ report this post ] | alright!
Message:
I see you got in ..b4. Excellent ... we'll be sure to get it in now. Give them a decision to make too. Thanks for saving us!
This really is a troublesome factor to me, that 2nd players cannot see actual game time ... tho you did tell me and I confused it. Sorry again.
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ccmcacollister
3/31/2007
22:57:09
[ report this post ] | hmmm .... Did they just drop a piece?
Message:
Something like Nc4 then dont they drop their queen if they try to hold it? or not quite?
Nc4 Qd3 Ne5 Qb3 a5 as a start but b4 is a bit weak if a4, isnt it. Well Ive only looked for seconds ... maybe there will be something there? see anything?
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ccmcacollister
4/01/2007
05:32:31
[ report this post ] | f7
Message:
is going to be out weakness and may wish to think about stopping their ability to play a g6 push, perhaps by our own g6?
Eg Was looking at a line with an unforatunate end
1...Qa5 2.Kb1 Nc4 3.Qd3 Nxe3 4.Qxe3 Qb6 5.Bg2 Be7 6.g5 hg5 7.hg5 Rh1 8.Rh1 Nd7 9.g6!
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far1ey
4/01/2007
23:32:05
[ report this post ] |
Message:
Ok back from a few days of social stuff...
Here is the position for future reference:
Ok I could only find a few games on the chesslab/chesslive (dunno which) in which both games d5 was played, giving protection for the b4 pawn while simultainously opening the centre but this certainly doesnt mean we should play this. d5 looks awkward as we are really underdeveloped and opening the d file cannot be in blacks intrest in the moment. Sure eventual equality is possible but if anyone has an advantage it is white... Perhaps something more exciting would be nice... Nether the less d5 can be used as a saftey net if something happens.
The b pawn is hanging and we must think about protecting or playing an inbetween (ie Nc4!)
If the Nc4 inbetween is going to be played then it had best be now. It would be good to win the two bishops in a sense but I dont think that the two bishops loss is of any concern as black has no immediate way to exploit this advantage while he has also lost an important attacking piece. So perhaps the reason for Nc4 can be for attacking purpouses? Unfortunately it lacks support and the only good follow up seems to be d5!
Nc4
Qd3 d5
exd5 exd5
When we have an awful pawn structure - The d5 pawn is weak to the major pieces on the d file while the b4 is also a hinderance as it does nothing to help attack. Furthermore, black is behind in development.
Just a few quick comments...
PS: I think I will postpone for two days seeing as you are busy...
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ccmcacollister
4/02/2007
05:16:31
[ report this post ] | I also dislike ...d5 a lot I think
Message:
Something to consider, whether to play ...Qa5 to force the king to b1 to that it cant run out via d2 if we do get an attack going.? It may be just as well off to leave it at Kc1 tho. I just cant tell. But anyway, seems to me that something like this is possible . (If desired then Qa5 first then Nc4 Qc7)
1. ....Nc4 2.Qd3-[] Qc7 3.Bf2 !?or?! a5 4. Bg2 Ba6
or otherwise ... now I dont mind Bb7 in present game. It no longer has any purpose to go to Bd7. Perhaps ...e6 and ...Be6, must be fairly risky tho? If they go Bg2 we will have to watch for shots vs our Ra8 tho of course.
Probably they wont try to preserve the Be3 tho. So will they go right to Bg2 or Ng3 perhaps ... which allow for g5 to play ... then we must have a counter.
There is an idea of meeting g5 with Ng8 undeveloping!? but guards for Nxh6 . Might be hard to ever develope tho.
I wonder if we can ever o-o-o still or Kf8. Or possibly if we do take the Be3 to play ...g6 and o-o ?! yeow !?!
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ccmcacollister
4/02/2007
05:34:54
[ report this post ] | another idea ... the gist of
Message:
Nc-e2 Nc4
13. Qd3 Qc7
14. Ng3 Nxe3
15. Qxe3 Bb7
16. Bd3 Be7
17. g5 hxg5
18. hxg5 Rxh1
19. Rxh1 Ng8
20. g6 Nh6
21. gxf7+ Kxf7
22. Rxh6 gxh6
23. Qxh6 Rg8
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ccmcacollister
4/04/2007
21:22:16
[ report this post ] | Antoher idea ...
Message:
I've been thinking of si is to move the KN Nd7 so as not to be a target there?
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far1ey
4/05/2007
00:55:56
[ report this post ] |
Message:
Sorry craig I have really let time get ahold of me I should have postponed longer I completely misjudged everything...
10 hours till lift off and I am afraid that we must move...
I think that Nc4 is best from our two analysis although it is hard to say since we havent had much depth in other moves. Sorry for letting time get away...
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far1ey
4/05/2007
01:03:57
[ report this post ] |
Message:
LOL FALSE ALARM!!!
Just as I was about to make the move yamn logged on a pp for 7 days!! Phew. Close one! I'll post more tomorrow...
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