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 Conditional Moves |
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Conditional moves |
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Ditto!Yes,conditional moves have been around for chess since chess was invented centuries ago.One of my best GK friends,the late Baronderkilt(Craig) and I always discussed some of the great conditionals we had when we played postal years ago.Sometimes we both used several subset "if"moves in groups on the same outgoing card."If" "or if" and/or "if" ect ect.It was cool to fill up the same card from top to bottom!Saved a month or more as well,off the time length of the game! In reality,I actually admire and thank my opponents for keeping up the conditional moves,the reverse of others.It's really the way to have the appropriate mindset.It shows me that my opponent has been fortunate enough to figure out my plan and I admire their insight into the game that way!And I admire my opponent even MORE if they either announce to me an upcoming mate in 5,for example or do it via a conditional move sequence.My hat would be off to any of my opponents who would plug in a 10 move or more mating net via conditional moves.It illustrates to me an opponent brilliancy,especially at my playing level where I can learn from my opponents insight as well.Whether I actually play to the end,maybe,but probably not since I would recognize the mating net part way through as I have in the past and throw in the towel!But even on lower rating levels,conditionals can be used as a learning tool,during or after the game.One,for example,can go back,even after a loss and use analysis tools to examine the conditional move mating nets(there can be several) and keep backing the game up,until they found out exactly where they went wrong and change it...but for the next positional encounter in that line with a different future opponent or maybe the same opponent! Additional mindsets would be to actually CREATE my OWN additional conditional move mating sequences on my own loss!!!!Its an additional learning tool to see the weakness of the position I created as well as try to extrapolate an escape path! Lots of possibilities! TA |
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As others know(but not many on this site),I had been playing not only postal for over 40 years but on many chess sites since the internet was invented.Some of those "sites"were actually just a group of players(like a small club)getting together in the early infancy of the net,just to email moves back and forth to one another!Maybe I have even been on GK alot longer than my present profile states...without going into detail!So when someone tells me that they have been here longer than me on GK,well...not necessarily! I say this,because GK has always been the best site with all its options,including the one chatted about in this string.Once in a while I mention things for possible blitz improvement.But then,I forget that GK is primarily not a blitz site,so for my blitz fix,I can go elsewhere and come back to GK for the regular corresp....so really no need to change the blitz here,just like other "features". TA |
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i hate conditional moves anyway my answer is if you play conditionals against me you will sit at the back of queue for several days |
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Why this and that...no,why not?That is the question.Don't ask me,bigpeta,ask the major huge majority of players on this site and most other chess sites that prefer and constantly use conditionals.Like GK said in that locked thread.... no use in "beating a dead horse".Meaning,the subject is closed with them....and conditionals remain.There are many reasons to use conditionals,just check many of the past forum strings.You may want to slow the game down bigpeta,but of course,most players are not like you,they WANT to speed up the game or even the mating net.But if you slow the game down,thats ok too,for then alot of players then have the mindset that they can just forget your game for most of the full time settings and concentrate on their remaining games.Perhaps one reason out of 20 would be that they are playing alot of games and with only so many hours in 2 or 3 days,they would like to move on to other games,and finish a few games quicker in that series of games so that they can concentrate better on the more complex ones or complex mid game in seversal others.Some players use more conditionals during the holidays,so that they can figure on their opponent taking MORE time,which is what they want because they are too busy to answer back like they have been once or twice a day.Others will go through the conditional moves(most of the time obvious exchange moves)and move a bit quicker.Its up to you. So,bigpeta,you might hate conditional moves,but you are only a tiny minority of players that do.If they were in any way unpopular,then logically of course,they would have been removed from GK and other chess sites a long time ago.My suggestion is to "like"them.For if you "hate"them,it might possibly affect your game play.For now that I know that,if you and I ever play,I will use conditionals by the hornet nest load,sit back an and patiently wait for you to respond while I take a bit more time to think in my other games.But don't take too long!Why?I had a player do that once and he lost!He wanted to play that "revenge"game with me and wait till the last hour or so in a 3 day game to move.Well,he got stuck in traffic due to an accident on the highway,came back and the game timed-out!Oddly enough,my conditional moves were meant to exchange in HIS FAVOR giving me a disadvantage!Ha,ha....I had the last laugh. There is a saying in America bigpeta and this is an American chess site...."You can't fight city hall"!Conditionals are here to stay and will also never be blocked.For blocking them will also not be fair to the OTHER player who,by the rules,wants to use them as much as anyone else. So hate them or love them,they are fixed to stay.And don't kill the messenger,for I speak for the greater vast majority of players on this and every chess site in the world. TA |
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Love Conditional Moves We all play by the same rules. You are free to use all the time on your clock, for whatever reason. I make any player whose user name begins with a vowel sit out the full time--just to be whimsical. You can consult books, magazine articles, or the GK library for your next move. I generally don't do that, preferring to rely on my own limited brain power. I DO use the analyze tool, even though some players eschew that. Before I realized it was there I would set up board positions on a real chess board. Conditional moves detracts FAR less from "genuine" chess than consulting move libraries. I generally take two or three minutes to move, unless I'm in a sticky situation. Then I might examine the board, and wait half a day to look at it again from a "fresh" perspective. If I have three days--I might even wait a second day. If my opponent is on line, we can make moves every 10/15 minutes until one of us leaves. What is wrong with that? You can take as much time as you want until your clock runs out, whether your opponent employs conditional moves or not. I assume my average time per move drops when I set up conditional moves. Is that correct? It SHOULD be. I took the trouble of setting them up, I should derive that small advantage. Suppose you check a king and your opponent's next move is forced? What is wrong with setting up a conditional in that situation? You're detracting NOTHING from the game. And we can extend that further. If conditionals are ok there, why wouldn't they be ok anywhere? There is nothing wrong with conditional moves--they are great! I know I won't convince anyone whose mind is already made up, just as I won't ever convince someone they should change their religion. But new users to the web site will see how wonderful conditional moves are, and won't raise silly, pointless objections to their use. |
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Conditional Moves Fortunately I never saw conditional moves in this light. They were a surprise the first time a move I made triggered a conditional response. But they are such a great tool for moving games along. Just because my opponent has to go to dinner or work or bed or consummate a physical relationship with her significant other doesn't mean MY side of the game needs to wait. We can catch up a few moves--maybe she'll be ready to play while I'm otherwise engaged. So there are primarily great advantages to conditional moves. Tactical-Abyss pointed out one or two trivial disadvantages, which I unfortunately cannot recall off hand. Trying to "punish" players who employ this tool by running out your own clock is really silly, and and gives them a slight advantage in that sometimes you can't get back to a game when you think you can (most of us have experienced intermittent internet interruptions--especially out on the reservation), and they win by time out. As my mother would say, "don't cut off your nose to spite your face." |
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What you expressed above,is simply what most players feel and do,atleast in corresp chess.I could not have said it better.Corresp chess comes in many forms.Years ago,it was mostly postal for the corresp chess players.,So conditionals were practically the law of etiquette to make "snail mail"more manageable,especially with the cost of postcards.And conditional "etiquette"whether voluntary or not is mostly "appreciated",not "unappreciated"in most internet games. As you said pasha,you and I cannot change the minds of a few.And please anyone,never read my posts in such a way that I mean..."my way,or the highway"!Yes,GK and other sites rely technically on a democratic way of doing things and i'm all for differences in opinion or someone trying to bend or change the present rules or giving an option like blocking(believe it or not!)...but i'm also a realist,and truly believe while some changes have occurred like minimizing forums,others,however,will simply not come about.As to levels of"disrespect"due to a mating net sent by a player,well,I believe that there is none whatsoever.But trying to convince someone else of that,well,that might be impossible!So I try and show others the "why"they exist and the advantages of their existance.I have convinced players in the past to change their views,even though it dosen't matter to me personally what they believe.You either go with the flow,or not.And if not,then so be it,but there is something called..."complaining in vain".So,i'll go with the flow and realism,myself,and never complain about something that has more advantages than disadvantages,thank you! Statistically,most of the players on any chess site that do not like conditionals are usually under 2000 in rating as I have noted over the decades.But there are,of course,exceptions! There are many reasons for this,but it dosen't take a rocket scientist to figure out why.So,i'll let those reasons brew and "stew" in the readers minds leaving that for you,the reader to answer for yourselves. That little online green light(when it disappears,but that player is still online) is another thing that seems to pest a number of players.That is also,shall I say...silly to let that bother you.(Maybe thats WHY I keep mine off!)But thats another thread....and I don't want to veer off the subject too much or a hand will come down and lock the thread!Ha ha! So,complain,bicker all you want!I'm not doing either!I'll just sit back and observe the moaning from now on smiling to myself as I lock in 20 more conditional moves in one game with a mate included whenever possible...and yes,I have done it before! How nasty and disrespectful!Hmmmmmm.Please! TA |
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tactical_abyss 02-Jan-13, 12:33 |
Deleted by tactical_abyss on 02-Jan-13, 13:03.
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I said most people that complain about conditionals are under 2000 in rating.This is true,but after checking my "stat"notes that I keep in an old dusty blank page book that I have complied since 1966-2012,my notes state..."if move # of disagreements & nonusage."The number in my book is at 19.Everyone was under 1500 in rating(except 5 rated under 2000 and 2 under 2200).But no one beyond 2200 in rating,atleast from my experiences.Interesting facts,right?I have many more strange ones like which state/players had the most ambigious moves(postal) and more,but thats another thread. So,yes,I keep all kinds of unusual stats from everything I played,both OTB and corresp. So,many times I will show my opinion about things that are backed up by various personal stats,but you the reader,will never always know where my wisdom comes from because i will not tell you.Just call it..."nearly a half century of chess experience". My total # of games played related to that "19"number was approx 7000 games played in postal and 5 different chess sites(later on when they first came about on the net) COMBINED in a time frame covering 46 years!I remembered my first online games needing my DOS floppy disc placed in the computer first,just to fire it up! So what the heck am I trying to say here?Where's that rocket scientist or psychologist!? I already know the answers...but again,i'll leave it up to you to figure it out,just like a tactics puzzle! TA |
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Conditional Moves See GK, I am not the only member that does not like conditional moves and actually hates them. 'bigpeta', I and a small numbers of other GK members are probably the less than one percent that do not like conditional moves. Why not offer an option, so us few members can refuse conditional moves to be made against us? Again GK, 90% percent of what you offer on your website is great. Only a few more things need to be done to continue your move forward. Regards, Chris |
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@tactical abyss The main reason for my post was that as GK dont offer the option to prevent conditionals against me (an option offered by some sites) i just wanted players who do like them to know what to expect if they decided to play me. They may see this as a reason to avoid playing me. Just trying to pre-empt problems. Thats my opinion which i believe i am still entitled to. Also i never said i would wait until the last minute to respond. Just that i will leave the game lie for a day or two. |
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Conditional Moves But, us few GK members, would welcome this change very much! Go for it GK, and make this simple change... Chris |
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Conditional Moves |
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pasha582 and I were simply discussing the reasons for conditionals and ther advantages to them.Sort of like,perhaps trying to change the minds of some of the small minority of players on GK that do not like them,like yourself as you mentioned above.I did not say anywhere above that "bigpeta"wants conditionals "stopped" or that YOU WILL take longer to respond.But some players do and other do not.My statements were of a "generalized"nature,not pointing a finger to you.So perhaps you misunderstand me.I "know"what you are saying.But it is in the extreme realm of logic that anyone(not necessarily meaning you bigpeta) that does not "like"conditionals then of course,would want them stopped.But again,I did not say YOU would want them stopped,so lets clear that up immediately.So,as you point out things,so do I.And yes,you are entitled to your opinion,I never said you were not.Even I mentioned that I,myself are NOT against conditional move blocking,but simply do not expect that to ever happen. But as to "pre-empting problems" as you mentioned above....ha ha...what problems?Your not going to be able to do anything and if you did slow down,well,so what?Thats not a problem for most,even if conditionals were "meant"to speed up the game.If it slows the game down,well,so what?Infact many players WANT the game to be slowed down with say,for example, 8 conditional moves sent,so that while you are "brewing"and "stewing"your conditionals,then your opponent can concentrate on other games while you ARE taking much longer to respond.They might even find that mating net for you or other games since they won't see you respond for a couple of days and be able to use their mental resources more deeply in the time frame that you have given them. So,bigpeta,problems or perhaps someone "avoiding you"(as you said above) simply because you do not "like"conditionals?I seriously doubt someone will NOT challenge you due to a conditional move issue.For if/when they do use them.well....you can't stop the "freight train"from coming,nor will you ever!And there is "no problem"you can give to another player,nor that opponent of yours giving you a problem.....so its a moot point!Infact if one of my 2300 rated opponents said they do not like conditionals,but I want to play him,I still will,and that will not stop me one bit from using them and there will be no problem that can surface.What will the 2300 rated player do?Stall,bicker with TA?Ha ha ha! So,I understand all these issues and putting postal aside even GK stated...."don't beat a dead horse".So the issue is done,gavel down,like it or not. And one other thing.....which site EXACTLY offers a conditional move blocking feature????Tell me,I want to know and I will fully research it.I am a member of many chess sites and i do not know of any that have a conditional move blocking feature.Yes,some sites do not have conditional moves at all,(minor less frequented sites)but you stated above an "an option offered by some sites"So you are saying this in plural....more than one site offers an "option" to prevent conditionals.Really?Hmmmmmm....i'm interested.Which sites EXACTLY????? Regards, TA |
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Conditional Moves |
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TA |
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Conditional Moves |
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tactical_abyss 17-Jan-13, 06:09 |
Deleted by Gameknot.com on 18-Jan-13, 14:09.
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bigpeta 18-Jan-13, 11:45 |
Deleted by Gameknot.com on 18-Jan-13, 14:09.
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I'm sad.They stopped selling my favorite brew in the USA.... Beamish Irish Stout.Send me just a six pack,please...and i'll send you a nice chess board!In my opinion,Beamish is better than Guinness Draught,more complex and a bit less watery. Oh,by the way,to show you how you and I differ with respect to conditionals(atleast partly,i'm sure),I used "reverse psychology" and sent my opponent a mate in 9.BUT the mate was to mate myself!!And I did!Why this and that,why not just resign?Don't have to answer that!The abyss is deep and deeper in thought than you can fathom!There is hidden positive value in things way beyond your imagination!I cannot begin to try and explain all these key issues on conditionals.When you begin to mate yourself a few times like I did,and then play a few games mating yourself USING conditionals,you will have snatched the pebble from my closing hand.... TA |
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shamash 18-Jan-13, 12:20 |
Deleted by Gameknot.com on 18-Jan-13, 14:09.
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tactical_abyss 18-Jan-13, 12:56 |
Deleted by Gameknot.com on 18-Jan-13, 14:09.
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as pasha says to start this thread, "one thing I have noticed is. . . " |
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