chess online
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baronderkilt 11-Aug-09, 11:11 |
 WAIT; I am stopping my clock to summon a Director/Arbitor now...* * * * * * * " if I play real chess it is not allowed to touch a opposite piece, if I dont take it and dont "jedoube" it. It is not allowed to make a move for my opposite. " ******************************************************** Of course that situation he mentions appears to be clearly improper tournament behavior. But I'm just not sure Why? In the sense of what particular Rule is broken, etc. *** IS anyone here currently a Tournament Director, or FIDE Arbiter, that could tell me for certain just what the penalty would be if a player DID pick up the opponent's piece and make the move for him that was the only choice and completely forced; and then follow with his own move in reply??! Let us say that he did not even punch his clock during these moves, but just made them and only then hit his clock. Or perhaps his last move made Checkmate. Is there a prescribed penalty for his conduct? What type of Rule infraction would this actually be? Or would it be within the realm of the Director's discretion at to what penalty, and what conduct was improper? If it IS a discretionary situation, what remedy would YOU apply to the situation? Warning? Re-establish the prior position? Something else? Actually there's no reason to restrict it to officials & I would like to hear from anyone who has thoughts or opinion about that situation. But please note if you do happen to be a current Director/Arbiter, or even frequent tournament player. So I can know how up to date the info is. (I Directed in USCF till into the 1990's but am not at all current on Rules changes since then; nor ever re FIDE Rules) Thanks in advance~! }8-) |
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A forced move button as proposed would eliminate that option if used. ***** Player A is forced to move his King. Normally, he has 3 days to make the forced move. The next move he could potentially get another 3 days. That's a total of 6 days of thinking time in the given position. Under the proposed forced move option, Player B presses the forced moved button. Those first 3 days for Player A are gone. Instead of 6 days, now he only has 3. This is forced upon him. He is not losing the time voluntarily. Player B has not lost any thinking time whatsoever. For his move he uses all three days then immediately presses the forced move button against Player A. Immediately it is Player B's turn again. He uses another 3 days to make his next move. Player A has gotten only 3 days to make 2 moves. Player B has gotten 6 full days to make 2 moves. Granted, Player B could choose to make his second move almost immediately but he does not have to. He still has the choice while Player A does not. ***** Let's suppose that we modify the proposal just a little (nobody else has proposed this change to my knowledge): The new rule would be that you must place your next move into the queue to be played immediately before you can press the forced move button. That way both sides would theoretically have the same amount of time available on the clock for two moves. Both sides would have 3 days to make 2 moves instead of the normal 6 days. Although this might be a little fairer, it is still not right. Why? Player A agreed to play the game with time controls set at 3 days per move. That means he still was forced to accept less time on the clock to make the 2 moves. Player A had no choice. Depending upon his schedule this could be a problem for him. Yet, Player B had a choice to accept the temporary less time on the clock; for him there is no difference from any previous move that he might make to forfeit the remainder of his time on the clock. Player B obviously did not need the extra time else he would not have forfeited it. He already knew what move he was going to make. Or he simply did not have as busy of a schedule as Player A. Player A did not have any choice in accepting the loss of time on his clock. It was just simply taken away. Being suddenly forced to lose time on the clock is the difference. Player A has no choice. Whereas under current rules, Player A has every right to use the full 6 days to make the moves. That's 3 more days to think 3, 4, or more moves ahead. That extra time might allow him to find a way out of a bad situation. |
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How is that different from what I wrote? If there is to be a voluntary button, it should be for the person who has the forced move not the player forcing. If ol-timer wants to have a button that says that if he has only one move then it will be made automatically, that's fine. But he should not have a button that would automatically make his opponent's move. Perhaps, Heinzcat cat should clarify for whom the button would make automatic moves for. I am assuming that heinzkat intended the automatic move to be made for person who selected the option. |
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That's why I thought the whole discussion was about forcing your opponents move. In fact, the title says force opp. move when appropriate. |
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aijp 12-Aug-09, 19:43 |
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tugger 13-Aug-09, 09:44 |
Deleted by tugger on 13-Aug-09, 09:47.
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slightly amended... Suppose we reach a position where no pawn has moved for 49.5 moves, and no piece taken in this time. We all know what that means, next move is a draw unless we break the deadlock. Suppose also that W just made the last move (Bc4+), the first move of a forced two-move mate (ignoring the 50-move rule briefly), and B is forced to play Kh8, the 50th move. Now, if B has the option set to automatically make his forced moves, what happens? Either... 1. The move is forced by the system, it is white's move, and black loses his right to claim the draw, or... 2. The move is not forced by the system, it is black's move, and now black has unfair information, if he is observant enough to realise, that a draw must be there to claim, because the system didn't make his forced move. Either is unacceptable. This cannot work fairly. |
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Well, actually, it can. If someone wishes to be lazy and have the system make your forced moves for them, in the highly unlikely event that a situation similar to the above example actually crops up, any player who has "atuo forced move on" must LOSE his right to claim the draw, thus ensuring no advantage is gained. It cannot be allowed that the system gives a player a "hint" by not making the move. If this is unacceptable, then it's time to bury this idea. |
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normbenign 28-Aug-09, 19:36 |
heinzkat wrote..... If the option were available, the argument would switch to making the forced move mandatory. It is a bad idea, not compatible with the rules of chess. I don't understand the confusion linking forced moves to conditional moves. Night and day difference. The forced move option allows you to move an opponent's piece. denying him his per move thinking time. By choosing to enter conditional moves you voluntarily give up your own thinking time, provided the opponent plays the move you've guessed, or the forced move, then your conditional move is played without input. The opponent is under no obligation to replay instantly but still has his regular per move time allotment. |
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No, you choose for yourself to make forced moves for you, your opponent does not have anything to say about this. |
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normbenign 29-Aug-09, 10:53 |
Ok, then you allow you opponent to move your..... I have three options even on a "forced move". 1. Resign 2. Make the move a offer a draw 3. Make the move after exhausting my time on the followups. It is only right that I keep all my options. |
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normbenign 29-Aug-09, 18:51 |
kat I would not activate it. EVER! Now what about my other observation that things once optional, often tend to become mandatory? |
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normbenign 31-Aug-09, 19:14 |
What is the necessity or desirability........... From my reading of this, it seems that those in favor are those who are impatient to cash in a win, and want the opponent to stop "stalling". Impatience WILL lose you games. Until you get checkmate, or your opponent resigns don't count a game as won, and see to your own moves. The time limit doesn't change when someone is two pawns down, you or your opponent. |
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Also, considering how many people dislike when their opponent's moves are made automatically (i.e. conditional moves), I can't even begin to imagine how unpopular it'll be if we try to make the player's moves for them. It just doesn't make much sense to implement a feature that will only be enabled/enjoyed by a small fraction of players... As a side note, forced moves were recently implemented on our sister site ZooEscape for backgammon games. If you'd like to see how it feels to play with forced moves, give them a visit: zooescape.com Backgammon games usually don't require a lot of planning ahead (since you can't predict the dice rolls), so it does make sense for backgammon and usually speeds up games quite a bit, especially near the end, or when you have your opponent completely blocked. |
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