GameKnot: Chess related, If you had to play against Paul Morphy...

Chess related: If you had to play against Paul Morphy...

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perdurabo
13-Apr-12, 13:28

If you had to play against Paul Morphy...

Let's assume you had to play a match (10 games & tiebreaks) against Paul Morphy at his prime.

Say you have got a week or two to prepare for the match and during your preparation can use all means available to you (internet, databases, books, chess instructor/mentor/trainer,...).

What would you do? How would you prepare for the match?

perdurabo
13-Apr-12, 13:31

To answer my own question, I would probably study all of his games that I can find in my database, prepare a few lines of opening I would want to play and do tactical exercises. On the day before the match I would not do anything chess related at all and relax with a good Tom & Jerry cartoons dvd and a good vegetarian pizza.

What would you do?

ketchuplover
19-Apr-12, 04:53

Study his losses.

tactical_abyss
19-Apr-12, 06:04

Actually,with all the present database knowledge and advanced theories and new lines found over the last 40 years,including players using all types of programs and tabletop machines and more,it is very likely that a really good senior master of todays time,possibly even just a master,could with just alittle preparation,probably defeat Morphy.I firmly believe this.
Personally,I think I would have a grand chance at defeating him.I'd probably set up a strategy with the white playing a number of Trompowsky Attacks,where little was known about that obscure opening and possibly a complex anti-meran used in Soviet/US matches and throw in a
Shirov-Shabalov gambit which was very successfully used by GM Kasparov and who's games I have memorized in that variation.If all else fails(and I doubt it) a few Petrov's can easily force a draw if all I needed was a half point or so.The Petrov variation statistically has one of the highest draw rates of them all and is used as a tactic in many tournaments for that"eeking out"a draw against most players of superior strength.

amacivn
20-Apr-12, 02:44

I don't think

I would beat him aged 10 never mind his prime ,

potus
20-Apr-12, 04:22

Bobby Fischers view of Morphy - "Perhaps the most accurate player who ever lived, he would beat anybody alive today in a set-match. He had complete sight of the board and seldom blundered even though he moved quite rapidly. I've played over hundreds of his games and am continually surprised and entertained by his ingenuity."

tactical_abyss
20-Apr-12, 05:37

Hi potus,
Well,everything is relative and Chess players of all levels have their immortal favorites and lets say "idols".If you ask many GM's today,many of them have said that they would have beaten Fischer after he left the mainstream and started to go downhill.I stand by what I said in the above paragraph.Infact,I have seen Fisher himself at the Manhattan Chess Club over 40 years ago get defeated a good number of times at the club in games that are in the record books,but there are games that are not in the records at the NY clubs he frequented.Its all a matter of opinion(theoretically),but the study and advancement in chess has come a long way since both Morphy and Fischers times in the past.So I still do not doubt that there are today many GM's that if they went BACK in a time machine and played Morphy,they would par very well against him.I hate to say it,but my $$ would be on Magnus Carlsen,if Carlsen stepped into that time machine.Not that I do not respect the immortal Morphy or Fischer,but that is my opinion.

potus
20-Apr-12, 09:44

Hi Joe

I guess that essentially we are talking about natural ability, so to make that comparison valid we would either have to transport Morphy to the present day and equip him with current opening theory, or transport a current GM back in time with his openings book switched off. Although Carlsen is very talanted, his current rating is only 50 above Fischers top rating despite rating inflation, and I don't see him or anyone else beating players of the calibre of Tamminov and Larsen 6-0, or winning the US open every time he played in it, eight in total. Still, it would be an amazing thing to do - if only it was possible.

shamash
20-Apr-12, 12:20

morphy prep

now the original question was:

<<" If you had to play against Paul Morphy...
Let's assume you had to play a match (10 games & tiebreaks) against Paul Morphy at his
prime.

Say you have got a week or two to prepare for the match and during your preparation can use
all means available to you (internet, databases, books, chess instructor/mentor/trainer,...).

What would you do? How would you prepare for the match?">>

Although (thanks to Grandmaster Valeri Beim) I have a strong and well-considered hunch
of my overall approach and tactical strategies,
first, however:

========> I would consult my seconds. <=====

My team of seconds for this match are
(for the various, relevant or intuitive perspectives they bring to the table):

Gyula Breyer
Sultan Khan
Aron Nimzovich
Alexander Alekhine
Vladimirs Petrovs
Vassily Smyslov
Victor Korchnoi
Anatoly Karpov
Tigran Petrosian
Teimour Radjabov

potus
20-Apr-12, 12:38

So who would I have as Morphys seconds? How about Tal, Kasparov, Dovertesky and Nunn

rookie879
20-Apr-12, 15:15

Of course it would be easier if you went BACK in time because you have more knowledge (databases, new openings, their past games) available to you than the old master

Bring the master(Morphy for example) forward in time and let them soak all of this new info and they would be able to beat the opposition today.

shamash
20-Apr-12, 15:29

time-travel chess

Given some prep time, Morphy's games to study, and a longer match,
I think Philidor would have won a match with Morphy.

tactical_abyss
20-Apr-12, 15:44

Potus,you can't really compare ratings under theoretical situations,due to inflation and more...thus I really do see the strong possibility of Carlsen coming on top,but there really is no way to tell for sure.Morphy may have played close to perfect in Fischers eyes,but how,for example would he truly par against the worlds top chess programs equipped with intercoolers and say,for example,10 cores?Again,my $$ if not on Carlsen,would be on Houdini or possibly Rybka.Those programs are said to play more "perfect"chess than the top GM's and can be adjusted for any micro weakness after any specific draws or losses.But lets say,those monster machines were not allowed in the tourney.Ok,but Carlsen and others have been using those programs as a learning tool in their repertoire for years.If you want to talk about ratings to some degree,I think Carlesen is actually much higher in rating if he would have played even more tourneys.If however,the programs were allowed in the tourneys,some of those programs are rated over 3000.Again, a reality check here(within theoretical talk)....I seriously doubt that Morphy,regardless of his past record and rating(of that time frame)would end up beating Houdini,equipped with 10 cores and an ultra strong book whether custom or a good commercially available one like the Houdini book filled with ultra modern sharp opening/mid game moves and more.Just the tactical monstrosity ability of those programs on high caffeine(8 to 10 cores)and its mating ability,sometimes more than 30 moves deep,well,need i say anymore?
Again,I might lose the bet,but i'd bet my house on the program or some of the modern GM's against Morphy.Either way,it would prove interesting.But any human chess player,especially one like Morphy that did not have access to all the tools of today,I firmly believe in those times past would lose,atleast to the machine.Hell,the computer would probably scare Morphy psychologically to begin with,and with his lack of concentration staring at this "god"like machine....again,need I say anymore?

ketchuplover
20-Apr-12, 20:14

Rather than one player traveling to their rival's time they should meet in the middle.

potus
21-Apr-12, 00:45

I don't think that there is much doubt that chess programs are just too strong for all but a few top players today, and over a long match, the machines advantages like freedom from fatigue would be decisive. It is only a matter of time before asking a human to play against a computer becomes like asking a tug of war team to take on a tank. However, given a level playing field, I think Morphy would be a match for todays masters, although it is impossible to say who would win - people can't even agree who would have won a Fischer - Karpov match!

jstevens1
21-Apr-12, 12:22

Paul Morphy Cops Old Matey from Amateur Charles Maurian in 12 moves!!

Hi everyone!

In order to raise your hopes and give you a bit of a giraffe, here is a game that would have Paul Morphy wish there was a trap door under his seat!

www.chessgames.com

Have a good read!

Joanne

perdurabo
21-Apr-12, 15:28

Rook odds or not, that must have hurt! Nice mate though.

potus
22-Apr-12, 05:27

Maurian was Morphys closest friend, so I wouldn't attach too much importance to what was a skittles game. But as they are fun, here's another one
www.chessgames.com

baronderkilt
06-May-12, 12:06

Potus ... No Fair !

Maurian gave "Q-side" odds that game ! lol.
***
If I had to beat Morphy I'd just give up. But to Not Lose to Morphy, the Staunton-Lasker Gambit is the obvious solution . . .

If he somehow cornered me anyway, and I held delusions of surviving the encounter I would probably play the Pirc and KIA. Hypermodern stuff to hope for a chance. I considered the French, but I think he would still nail me in that since I play the Winawer and that gets tactical in the Poisoned Pawn lines.

Then after considering all that, I'd forget it all and play to his strength and if that makes for more Morphy brilliancies, well so be it! Who could miss the chance?

As Bronstein said, facing ...e5 from Tal; how does one pass up the chance to play a King's Gambit with Tal !!? Nor could I pass up the chance to meet Morphy on his home turf. I'd play at least one Scotch or Goring Gambit too. How could I do less for a guy who's been resurrected just to play ??

}8-D

potus
07-May-12, 03:09

Like the attitude Baron.

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